best way for AV14 killing

[bravelybravesirrobin]

[

Oh and never deep strike the speeders.

Sometimes you have no choice.

 

 

Other than Planetstrike, no you always have a choice.

[Grimtooth]

I didn't get the chance to post up today when I saw it, but now see that Antique has edited it out. Do you really not know what Adepticon is?

[Grey Mage]

You never have to declare your speeders will entry via deepstrike. Ever.

 

Where are you seeing the rule that bypasses the reserve rule on page 94 of the BRB under Preparing reserves last paragraph.

 

"If units in reserve have the deep strike, scout or infiltrate special rule, the player must declare to his opponent during army deployment, whether they are going to use their special rules to deep strike/outflank or they are going to enter from his own table edge when they become available."

 

Vrox

No, Vrox what Im saying is that the Landspeeders always have the option to come on normally, and thus never have to deep strike. Thus, you never have to declare our speeder will enter via deepstrike.

 

Even Planetstrike allows for them to come on from the board edge.

[Godhead]

Meh, just drop some termicide on them with arjac. He's not an IC either and can throw his stupid hammer. You said you are specifically looking at killing russes. DP a term squad down with combi melts/plas's and arjac. Pod them so that you get side armor or rear armor shots. If you wreck the russ squadron and then get wasted, they've still earned their points.

 

A 3 russ squad w/o upgrades is 450 points. At worst side armor is 13 and rear is av 11. You wouldn't truely be trying to bust AV14 then. Battlecannons wont instagib a termi as its ap 3, so they would need something better. Yes you could get shot with rapid fire sharks with lasers. If said sharks happen to be the hotshot kind, they still are str 3 and ap 3 so the 2+ save still applies. Plus depending on deployment the pod could help block LOS to the termies. Of course this is more than 160 points :D And I forgot podding wasn't and option. Damn those 5am foggy thoughts.

 

If you are going to run the IP, why not get 2TWC instead. 2 of those one with a fist and with a storm shield can be hidden just the same as your IP, has two wounds for each model, str 10 vs str 9, the same amount of attacks AND HAS RENDING ON TOP OF it all with the powerfist all for 155 points. You can splurge and get the TH just so you can shake em too if you want.

[antique_nova]

didnt think anyone would get upset about a blanketed swearword, but if that bugs you, then i apologize.

It's not me, it's the forum rules.

 

When i said "your standard GT lists" - I didnt mean YOURS, like ones you specifically plan to bring. I meant against standard build types.

i don't get what your saying.

 

Here's what i interpret it as

You say not my list, but then you say a list tailored against standard build types?

 

I am soo confused....maybe because i missed supper due to school event and then breakfast because i woke up late. lol

 

Godhead:

i have already decided, on some lascannons and melta speeders.

Also, no competitive guard army will squadron any tanks, at 1500 points, squadroned tanks are easier to kill, because immobilised is a wrecked result. But they will be spread out and kept as seperate HS choices.

 

When i meant sometimes you don't have a choice, i mean when your going second and the field has literally no cover to give your LS something to hide behind.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Spacefrisian]

Meh, just drop some termicide on them with arjac. He's not an IC either and can throw his stupid hammer. You said you are specifically looking at killing russes. DP a term squad down with combi melts/plas's and arjac. Pod them so that you get side armor or rear armor shots. If you wreck the russ squadron and then get wasted, they've still earned their points.

 

Droppods werent an option so unless you want to break the 160 point limit set for this and move Arjac and co to those av 14 and use his hamer you better come up with something else.

[antique_nova]

Meh, just drop some termicide on them with arjac. He's not an IC either and can throw his stupid hammer. You said you are specifically looking at killing russes. DP a term squad down with combi melts/plas's and arjac. Pod them so that you get side armor or rear armor shots. If you wreck the russ squadron and then get wasted, they've still earned their points.

 

Droppods werent an option so unless you want to break the 160 point limit set for this and move Arjac and co to those av 14 and use his hamer you better come up with something else.

Spacefrisian... some words of calmness? I've noticed that your being abit more aggressive lately, the guy has clearly explained that he was typing this in the morning and just wanted to give some of his advice. So he clearly was fully awake and aware and couldn't contain his fingers and thoughts to not chip in his advice.

 

So break up it.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Stormbrow II]

I've actually enjoyed browsing this thread so far, although I have to say I'm disappointed with antique_nova for starting out strict with a points limit and then breaking it himself...

 

I've tried out the Iron Priest with cyberwolf pets (x3) unit and it does serious damage when it gets there but it's actually quite fragile. While the whole unit is T5 the wolves poor armour and the Priest's single wound mean that it isn't actually all that hard to bag the unit in one shooting phase. Especially against mech armies.

 

I've had a look at Grey Hunters and was thinking of a 10 man unit in a pod at 190 points. However, if you drop them to 5 with Melta and take a WG with 2 combi-meltas you only spend 140 including the Pod. That's only 20 more than 2 Speeders for an extra Melta shot. Thanks to the Drop Pod's rules you can pretty much dump them in front of a tank squadron and be almost certain of having them land within 6" of them. Your unit is going to get destroyed no matter what it does but it will force your opponent to divert firepower away from the rest of your stuff that's running at him. Like an Iron Priest with cyberwolves...

 

If by some miracle someone in the unit does survive you have a troops choice that can tie up his infantry for a turn, or you can play hide and seek by moving the survivor out of line of sight behind terrain. The main advantage of this tactic is that you free up your valuable Fast Attack and Elite slots for other shiny things.

[antique_nova]

I've actually enjoyed browsing this thread so far

Glad you liked it

 

although I have to say I'm disappointed with antique_nova for starting out strict with a points limit and then breaking it himself...

the points limit well was what i had and in the end i didn't break it. i got 2x LS with MM. However, you could argue i broke it because i switched 4x GH for 4X LC. to turn the ML into LC. So i used more piints than i intended, but i easily compensated for it.

 

I've tried out the Iron Priest with cyberwolf pets (x3) unit and it does serious damage when it gets there but it's actually quite fragile. While the whole unit is T5 the wolves poor armour and the Priest's single wound mean that it isn't actually all that hard to bag the unit in one shooting phase. Especially against mech armies.

i worked that out when i picked it, as a filler.

 

However, if you drop them to 5 with Melta and take a WG with 2 combi-meltas you only spend 140 including the Pod

They aren't as good as 2xLS and MM, they don't throw kill points as easily and you can't rely on the pod to come down where you want it to come down. Also podding isn't an option.

 

The main advantage of this tactic is that you free up your valuable Fast Attack and Elite slots for other shiny things.

Yea, but i don't need that many shiny things ;). I usually don't fill up any choices when at 1500 points.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Stormbrow II]

They aren't as good as 2xLS and MM, they don't throw kill points as easily and you can't rely on the pod to come down where you want it to come down. Also podding isn't an option.

 

I know they give away 2 KP rather than 1 and it isn't as maneuverable as the Speeders but can you give a few reasons for saying they they aren't as good? With your pod scattering you can end up in side armour or close enough to get 2d6 for penetration. Plus you have 3 shots rather than 2. Granted two of those are only one-shot but it's still more firepower thrown out there.

[antique_nova]

Gladly.

 

Your tactic with 5xGH + 1xMG + 1xWG + 2xC-M +Pod

 

Pros

 

*Relatively cheap andwhen they are within range then your much better at anti-tank that any other unit out there.

*Inert pod system allows you to get even closer than normal pods am i right?

*They can survive, and cause more havoc, if you isolate your target and place the pod between your enemies army and your pod squad.

 

Cons

 

*Very small unit, hitting side armour is going to be very hard, because if you opponent just sits the tank near his deployment zone. then your most likely DS area is infront of his front armour. Trying to DS for his side armour makes it very very risky and you have a possibilty of loosing the squad. If the tank is deployed right near his deployment edge or in a corner.

*Easy kill points.

*You may also find that you may be not within half range of the 12inch gun that you need for that extra penetration roll.

*Its very much a do or die tactic and you opponent wil not need to divert too much firepower to deal with them.

*You can only rely on them to destroy one tank, because once you have used your combi-meltas, then you only have one melta gun to rely on.

 

The 2xLS tactic with 2XMM each, while comparing them to your idea.

 

Pros

 

*They have 24 inch range and do not need to we be within 6 inches to get extra pentration rolls like the melta gun.

*They may have 2x melta guns each whatever the squad composition, whereas the grey hunter squad must have 10 men. but WG can fill in.

*They are more mobile and can adjust their positions more easily.

*Harder to kill, because S4 weaponary needs 4s to hurt your guys, but 6s to hurt the LS.

*Roughly the same points cost, only 20 points difference.

*The LSs' can be joined and provide less kill points

*They can turbo boost to do last minute objective grabbing.

 

Cons

 

*Less relable DS, due to non existance inert guidance systems and homing beacons.

*Are more likely to be shot down in priority terms than a pod with 6 marines and 1 melta gun left.

*They are not a troops choice

*Can't think of any more at the top of my head. :)

*Idea may not be as fun and fluff like? ;)

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Auretious Taak]

Hey, sorry to dredge it but this was in a pm sent to me so:

 

Grey Mage due to his awesomeness! lol, jokes, but he's a good option ^^.

 

The real winner:

1x Iron Priest

1x Thunderhammer

1x Servo-arm

1x TW mount

1x Wolftooth necklace

1x Wolf tail talismen

- retinue -

4x Cyberwolf

170 points

 

Bit expensive, not as reliable as could be, only 1 wound on the Iron Priest as well.

 

I see 2 options here that are outside of a synergistic army build which just incorporates anti-AV14 as standard:

 

Lone Wolf, TDA, SS, CF - 85pts

 

Lone Wolf, TDA, SS, CF - 85pts

 

Total = 170pts.

 

Bloody Hard to kill, slowish but they penetrate AV 14 on average rolls (15) in combat and stand toe-to-toe with Dreadnoughts taking on average 1 wound but destroying the dread instead.

 

Alternatively:

 

TWC, BP, PF - 75pts

 

TWC, BP, PF - 75pts

 

2 units of 1 TWC model with PF, getting 4/5(on the charge) strength 10 attacks in combat, and withs erious speed as well.

 

Mix and match both options from above, 1 TWC, 1 LW at own preference.

 

Cheers all,

 

Auretious Taak.

[wiplash]

2 thunderwolf cavalry

2 storm sheilds

2 melta bombs

 

170 points

 

T5, W4, 3+ inv moving up to 24" a turn

[TiguriusX]

2 thunderwolf cavalry

2 storm sheilds

2 melta bombs

 

170 points

 

T5, W4, 3+ inv moving up to 24" a turn

 

That many points for TWO meltabomb rolls is a waste (you only get 1 "grenade" attack regardless of your profile)

Give at least one a TH so you can play the odds of rolling 4+ with 5 attacks

[Athalus]

The speeders defnitly seem the best option for your point constriction. Your pro's and con's pretty much covered it. The speeders will actually get there and get some attacks off. I hate having to chase tanks on foot. My army uses bikes with MM, melta, and powerfist at the moment, with a wolf guard with combi-melta and powerfist. I know people don't like the BS of bloodclaws, but I play a no tank, no speeder list (13th co). They haven't let me down in the past when I played with the old lists, and I am sure I can rely on them to fill the same role now (although I also like using the AsC and flamers, and using them to deal with hordes =p, and rely on my longfangs to see the day through).

 

But speeders for sure. If it was in the fluff of my army I would take them for sure.

[Grey Mage]

I just have to ask- what did I do this time?

[SamaNagol]

The only 2 sensible options are a Drop Pod GH unit or 2 Melta Speeders.

[antique_nova]

I just have to ask- what did I do this time?

Erm, you typed a response? Joking and before anyone shouts necro posting for the over zealous. Auretious Taak is rarely on, the last time he was on was 3 months ago. and he has been on a few times in the past year.

 

Back on topic. I used the speeders for a while, but i have solved this problem ages ago. Somewhere. It was my long fang squads ( 2 squads having 2 lascannons for anti-av14 in each squad alongside 3 missile launchers and a wolf guard bodybag which are for survivable and general tank popping duties ) Then i have 3 squads of grey hunters in pods popping down first turn with a combi-melta and melta gun in each squad. With 100% success in 10 games so far, each game was effectively won in 3 turns ( as the other turns were mopping up turns ) against tough opposition.

 

But yea, now that i have allowed podding, because i recently got some of drop pods. It works much better.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Godhead]

hey nova how many pods are you using in your list? I currently only own 3 pods myself and I have seen the success of 10xgh with 2x mg pods coming down. My luck vs av 14 has been shotty, so im thinking about podding down 8 gh and a wg in tda with combi melta and cf.

[Epistolary Exander]

If you dont mind an expendable unit, 3 WG with combi-meltas & a pod for 99 points should frag the target vehicle.

 

Exander

 

If you dont mind an expendable unit, 3 WG with combi-meltas & a pod for 99 points should frag the target vehicle.

 

Exander

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

As noted above, this thread is long and makes an interesting read. Mostly :)

 

Two possible options for me, though Podding is usually my prefered option (e.g. 2 x GHs 2 specials and a plasma pistol):

 

Scouts... ok, not always reliable, but cheap as chips to take out heavy tanks - melta and melta bombs or melta + two pistols keeps them cheap and will detonate rear armour with worrying ease.

 

or...

 

Speeders - reserve a pair with MMs and you stand a pretty good chance of giving something a shiny new hole to enjoy the view out of...

[antique_nova]

i have 3 squads of grey hunters in pods popping down first turn with a combi-melta and melta gun in each squad.

 

That's how many that i have pod down first turn and in total i have 5 drop pods for 1500 points. 2 of which are empty.

 

Wolf Guard Nostromo: It's quite an entertaining read :). I just noticed your sig "

Certainty of death... Small chance of success... What are we waiting for?"

That's from Grimly from LOTR :). One of the best lines in the trilogy ;).

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Archnomad]

Was actually just doing some napkin math on the subject for my own army actually! I should say, I run space wolves with a lot of Razorbacks, so this is only related to Lascannon (single from the Lasplas razor) versus the Twin Linked Assault Cannon. However, the TL Assault Cannon (assuming I haven't made any math errors) is alarmingly potent against AV14.

 

Here's the math;

 

On the math; Bit of rounding has been done.

 

Lascannon

 

66% chance to hit

17% chance to penetrate

17% of 0.66 is=0.11

 

11% Chance to glance AV14

11% chance to penetrate AV14

 

Assault Cannon:

66% Chance to Hit

17% chance to get rending, = 11% Chance to rend.

 

however, one third of these pen, one third glance. So,

 

11% /3 =

3.666% chance to glance

3.666% chance to pen

 

However, an assault cannon has 4 shots, meaning;

 

14.666% chance to glance AV14

14.666% chance to pen AV14

 

 

Finally though, Assault Cannons on my razors are twin linked, which means;

 

66% Chance to hit on roll one

your 34% rerolls have a 66% chance to hit on reroll, meaning....

 

89% Chance to hit

14.85% Chance to rend.

 

Basically, 4.95% (so 5%) chance to glance

5% chance to pen

 

Meaning

 

20% Chance to glance AV14

20% chance to pen AV14.

 

 

*Note* ACs however have a higher potential than a Lascannon, as they can potentially score 4 penetrating hits,

where a lascannon could only ever get one at most.

 

N= No result (whether miss, fail to pen etc I didn't note)

G=Glancing Hit

P=Penetrating Hit

 

AC Results

1 N

2 N

3 P

4 N

5 G

6 P + 2G

7 N

8 N

9 2G

10 N

11 P

12 N

13 N

14 P

15 N

16 G

17 N

18 P

19 G

20 G

 

Espected: 4 Glances, 4 Penetrates

Returned: 8 Glances, 5 Penetrates

 

I believe this shows the theory behind "Potentially" doing more damage than the LC ever can :(.

 

LC Results

1 N

2 N

3 N

4 N

5 N

6 N

7 N

8 G

9 N

10 N

11 N

12 N

13 N

14 N

15 G

16 P

17 N

18 N

19 N

20 G

 

Expected: 2 or 3 Glances, 2 or 3 Penetrates (2 of one, 3 of the other, exclusive, or 2 of both)

Returned: 3 Glances, 1 Penetrate

 

These results show that the assault cannon is also more reliable. It rolls more dice, and as such can be expected

to perform more according to the average trend. The Lascannon however, will only roll a maximum of 40 dice in this

example, compared to the assault cannons potential 160. Hence a spike of "bad luck" can severely hamper the LCs

performance.

 

 

So, I'm getting some assault cannons on my razorbacks!!

[Sulfurious]

Since I prefer a little "roll hammer" rather than "math hammer" here's what I came up with on the TWL Assault Cannon vs. TWL Lascannon on AV14.

 

In 30 rolls each (because my hands were getting tired):

 

Assault Cannon got:

11 Penetrating

7 Glancing

 

Lascannon got:

7 Penetrating

5 Glancing

 

I think I'll be using the Assault cannons myself. Combine that with the ability to mow down troops and take out light transports.

[stinkenheim]

dont forget though, the assault cannon is half the range of the lascannon and so is likely to get far more fire coming at it and also liley to get assaulted by enemy troops. the lascannon may be slightly worse (although only very slightlty) but can stay at a safer distance and potentially get more turns to do the damage.