best way for AV14 killing

[Athalus]

dont forget though, the assault cannon is half the range of the lascannon and so is likely to get far more fire coming at it and also liley to get assaulted by enemy troops. the lascannon may be slightly worse (although only very slightlty) but can stay at a safer distance and potentially get more turns to do the damage.

 

True, but if its on your assaulting vehicles you might as well go with assault cannons (so the math shows). Lascannons I think belong in the domain of long fangs, which need the reach pretty badly.

 

According to this math, on your wolf guard, do you want assault cannons or do you want CML?

[stinkenheim]

in fairness i skim read the previous posts and assumed it was in relation to razorbacks. if its on a land raider then the short range is less of an issue as it will be attracting fire regardless and should be able to shrug a fair amount of it off.

 

+edit+ re-read the previous one and as its on a razorback i think it will struggle to get as many turns of shooting as a lascannon armed variant. whilst its potentially more potent i also requires you to expse its weaker armour to alot of short range weaponry that would otherwise be unable to shoot it (namely plasma and meltaguns).

would be interesting to see how they would fair in a battle, as with enough other targets they could possibly be ignored long enough.

 

i take a cyclon missile launcher on my termie, but mostly so he can still wield a thunder hammer and storm shield.... imo it also looks cooler.

[Archnomad]

The 20 tests for each were rolled by me :rolleyes:

 

The lascannon does have longer range yes. However, on the lasplas, I can't move and fire both weapons. With the AC I can move (6") and fire to full effect. This is quite a big thing. Too often I find my lasplas razors like pillboxes. While the lascannon still outranges the AC with the 6" extra move, it can be used to deny/provide cover etc, and is ultimately very important. I don't think it will struggle to get more shooting turns either. A 30" threat range is plenty, considering if you need to, you can just zoom 12" and sacrifice a turn of shooting, so you can shoot in the following turns.

 

I think i'll be running 4 Las/plas and 2 AC in my 1500 from now on. Although 3 of each is tempting. Hrmmm. (As a note, my 1500 point list has a Dread, 6 Razorbacks, 2 Rhinos and 2 Land Speeders, to give this some context).

[SamaNagol]

Las/Plas counts as one weapons system. Not two.

 

All my Razorbacks carry T/L Assault Cannon now because I want to be getting my 6 man GH squads in range. Only time I go for T/L Lascannon is if I have bought one for my Long Fangs and am running it empty.

[LoneSniperSG]

.. You're facing Leman Russes? Well fortunately for you the front is the only AV14 on those old horses. Rear armor 10 on regular Russes (Battlecannon, Eradicator, Exterminator, Vanquisher) and rear armor 11 on the assaulty types (Demolisher, Executioner and Punisher). All have side armor 13, so you want to try to hit the rear.

 

.. Landspeeders with Multi-Meltas. If you want to go two per speeder, that's fine by me, but I think it's kind of silly because if you're truly facing IG those dual multi-melta's won't have much to do after all the tanks are gone.

 

And when you're done, make apologies to our Primarch for blowing up his tanks.

[TiguriusX]

Las/Plas counts as one weapons system. Not two.

 

This is the first I have heard of this. Do you have a rule or FAQ to point me to?

[Archnomad]

Indeed? Where does it say it's one weapon system? It has no ruling.

 

Just because it's two weapons in one choice doesn't mean it's one weapon system. For example, "You may upgrade your leman russ with two sponson heavy bolters". That's one purchase, two weapon systems.

[Mafty]

Indeed? Where does it say it's one weapon system? It has no ruling.

 

Just because it's two weapons in one choice doesn't mean it's one weapon system. For example, "You may upgrade your leman russ with two sponson heavy bolters". That's one purchase, two weapon systems.

 

same as upgrading side sponsons to las cannons on predators, one option to do it, but its still two weapons

 

 

edit: and on the ass cannon vs the las cannon, heres my test rolls (im not the biggest fan of math hammer) This is all VS AV14:

 

TL LAS TL ASS CANNON

p |n

n |g

n |n

n |n

n| n

g| n

g| n

n| g

n| n

p| n

n| n

n| g

n| n

p| n

p| n

n| n

g| n

p| n

n| n

n| n

n| n

 

 

P=pen, G=Glance, N=No result

 

So, TL Las got 5 pens, 3 Glances out of 21 shots (essentially, 4 TL las razorbacks over 5 turns, yes its one shot over, i rolled 21 instead of 20)

The TL ass cannon, got zero pens, and 3 glances (again, 4 TL ass cannon razorbacks over 5 turns). I got lots of rendings, but failed to do anything with the rendings, and ended up rolling 1-2 on my rends a lot.

 

So I realize my results differ from the ones posted earlier, but this is how my dice rolled, and it looks like my TL las would have done much more damage on AV14. Take from it what you will

[Archnomad]

I'm talking about Lascannon/TLPlasma Gun. Not Twin Linked Lascannon. Against AV14 the PG is useless. However, because of the PG, the math gets a bit more complicated when it comes down to lightly armoured vehicles (if the lascannon/plasma gun razorback is within 12", did it move, etc).

 

Of course, the TL Lascannon is a bit more effective against armour. And wow, you must have gotten really unlucky with the assault cannons! As in, really unlucky. To not even get a single penetrate out of some, 84 shots fired.

[Mafty]

I'm talking about Lascannon/TLPlasma Gun. Not Twin Linked Lascannon. Against AV14 the PG is useless. However, because of the PG, the math gets a bit more complicated when it comes down to lightly armoured vehicles (if the lascannon/plasma gun razorback is within 12", did it move, etc).

 

Of course, the TL Lascannon is a bit more effective against armour. And wow, you must have gotten really unlucky with the assault cannons! As in, really unlucky. To not even get a single penetrate out of some, 84 shots fired.

 

I was talking about las/plas as well. My comparison used TL las though, just so both guns were TL.

 

Anyways, I redid my test, better results for the Ass. Can this time, but over the 40 dice rolled (160 for the ass.can), my results were this:

 

TL Las: 12 pen, 3 glance, 25 nothing

TL Ass. Can: 8 pen, 5 glance, 27 nothing

 

 

Still failling to see the Ass.Can to be better in dice rolling, and I rolled 160 dice for it. Rolling the 6+,5+ to get a pen on AV14 is hard to do.

[Stormshrug]

not bad at all, but they could get shot down easily and trying to get them towards the enemy backline may prove a problem. they are also very vulnerable to flankers and deep strikers. We shall see.

thanks

antique_nova

 

How many AV14 targets do you need to kill in a single game? Just Deep Strike the speeders and fire the Multi-Meltas. True, the speeders will probably get shot down afterward, but they should be able to do their job first unless your opponent has TONS of AV14 stuff.

 

Wolf Scouts are also very effective in my experience.

 

-Stormshrug

[Stormshrug]

Scouts are a terrible option. Any av 14 you see is going to be moving forward in your face. Scouts in reserve will arrive too late, behind enemy lines is useless when the LR is driving towards you.

 

Well, don't forget that Scouts CAN Infiltrate. This is largely situational based on the cover on the map, of course.

 

-Stormshrug

[antique_nova]

I never liked using things that DS at any time of the game anyway. I liked things that can provide constant results, like the drop pod assualt rule.

thanks

antique_nova

[VorpalDoom]

Scouts don't HAVE to come in from your opponent's edge... it's very common to have them come on the sides or your own edge, especially if there's some heavy armor to take care of.

 

Otherwise, best bang for your buck is either:

 

Thunderwolf Cavalry w/ Thunderhammer, or Multi-Melta speeders, no question about it.

[antique_nova]

Vorpal Doom: That isn't the problem. The problem is i cannot garantee that they will be on at turn 2 or 3 or 4.

thanks

antique_nova

[Archnomad]

No Mafty it doesn't work like that >.>

 

You can't just twin link it "so they're both twin linked". That completely defies the point, I want two versatile loadouts (which lasplas and the a.cannon both are) and I want to see which is more worthwhile firing at AV14. It's the assaultcannon. That is all.

 

My comparison was purely based on the single lascannon. You can't just say "I used the twin linked lascannon so they were both twin linked". Obviously the TL Las is superior. But it's crap for anything else. At least Lasplas has some versatility. If you do single lascannon shots, you'll see the Assault Cannon is much better. That's the point I was making. I would never take a TL Lascannon, as it is about as versatile as FFDPs lyricist (he should burn).

 

Archy

[Mafty]

No Mafty it doesn't work like that >.>

 

You can't just twin link it "so they're both twin linked". That completely defies the point, I want two versatile loadouts (which lasplas and the a.cannon both are) and I want to see which is more worthwhile firing at AV14. It's the assaultcannon. That is all.

 

My comparison was purely based on the single lascannon. You can't just say "I used the twin linked lascannon so they were both twin linked". Obviously the TL Las is superior. But it's crap for anything else. At least Lasplas has some versatility. If you do single lascannon shots, you'll see the Assault Cannon is much better. That's the point I was making. I would never take a TL Lascannon, as it is about as versatile as FFDPs lyricist (he should burn).

 

Archy

 

 

Its impossbile to do a test dice roll on lasplas, its purely situational, you may fire it, you may not

[VorpalDoom]

Antique, there is no "i win" button against av 14. It's meant to be tough, and it is, even against anti-armor weaponry. Put the speeders on the table, you'll be getting a S8+2D6 armor pen shot turn 2 with relative ease.

 

 

Fastest way to get AT where it needs to be to wreck AV 14? Speeders, there's nothing faster. Move flat out turn 1, then drift around as need be to take your shots.

 

 

Speeders are fragile because they're the fastest and most threatening thing to AV14, in terms of speed and weaponry.

[antique_nova]

I wasn't looking for a 'i win' button. I was looking for a way of killing av14, with a unit that can do it where and when ( on a specific turn ) i want it to. Obviously this isn't always possible if someone reserves. And the land speeder isn't the fastest way, what if your opponent doesn't deploy the full twelve inchces? If they don't that multi-melta land speeder is as much use as one with missile launchers.

 

A drop pod with a squad of a few or more melta guns is the quickest way. Other than a lascannon.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Sven Bloodskull]

And the land speeder isn't the fastest way, what if your opponent doesn't deploy the full twelve inchces? If they don't that multi-melta land speeder is as much use as one with missile launchers.

 

You yourself deploy, boost 24", and after that move another 12" and shoot. The only way something is not within 12" than is if they didn't deploy at all, or if your using dawn of war deployment, in which case you deep strike the little buggers.

 

A drop pod with a melta gun or 2 might be quicker, but is also more expensive, and will be in trouble in DoW, seeing as they have to come down turn 1.

 

Marshal Hellmund

[VorpalDoom]

As Sven said....

 

Land Speeders. Done and done.

[antique_nova]

But can you guarantee that your land speeder will survive or even has a good chance of survivable, because isn't always sufficient cover or enough cover to hide a land speeder. And yes a pod squad is more expensive, but it is more useful to your army if it is a scoring unit and has support in a pod army. DOW is much worse for land speeders than a drop pod. Because land speeders have a bigger distance to travel and that means they have more of a chance of getting shot down. Pod squads can atleast get cover from behind their pod ( and fire at the target without having to worry about not shooting or getting annihilated as quuickly as a speeder ) and get good positions to force the tanks into your devestators or other squads line of fire.

thanks

antique_nova

[Sulfurious]

I've never used speeders so the rules are a little fuzzy for me but can't they deepstrike in and use multimelta in the same turn?

[antique_nova]

Have you ever used deep strike rules? Any unit that arrives from deepstrike can shoot or run ( if they can run ), but may not assualt, if they can, unless a special rule permits them to like the vanguard assualt marines from the vanilla codex.

thanks

antique_nova

[littlbitz]

If my Twin-linked Lascannons don't stop the AV 14, then its my Bikers with Melta bombs. They rarely fail me. They are fast, and they hit hard.