BA - The Effective Way

[Morticon]

NOTE: This is a very long article. Ive tried to structure it so that you can read it in segments. I do however recommend reading the "Introduction" and "The Point" in one go though.

Happy reading and thoughts welcome.

-Mort

 

 

 

Introduction:

Its difficult to dictate or even suggest the "right" way to do something as subjective as fielding a 40k or in this case a Blood Angels army.

 

"Right" can be 100 different things to 100 different people.

 

Fluff, fun and aesthetics make varied and broad categories too cavernous to house something as narrow as the concept of a "right" way to play.

 

 

We all know that people field BA armies in a variety of shapes and forms.

 

The sad truth about our army though, is that because of its design, we are strongly ushered in certain directions.

 

Starting with the Eldar, GW had a, retrospectively brief, design direction where codicies would be cut down, restructured, rebalanced and simplified. Eldar, Dark Angles, Chaos and Blood Angels all followed this pattern.

This was promptly broken by the arrival of Orks, then Space Marines then IG, then Wolves - each one arguably further away from the original intent they (JJ\PK) had lectured us on in November 2006 at the UK GT seminar.

 

I'm not going to go into why the direction was changed as I have no knowlegde of that, only speculation. But the reason I bring it up is because its important to note that we have fewer options* to work with in our list than our Codex brothers or Wolves for that matter.

 

That being said, I do believe there is a smart, effective way to field BA.

 

The "smart" way is admittedly a touch subjectively slanted towards one category I haven't listed; Effectiveness.

 

If we wish to remain effective there are some things which we need to include or at least factor into our lists.

The Point of the Article:

 

In a nutshell, the crux of this article will attempt to make a point that unless you include certain elements into your BA list, you will be making things difficult for yourself to remain competitive or effective.

 

I have to affirm that it is NOT impossible to be competitive and simultaneously not include these - not by ANY means.

You can still win a game without considering any of this.

 

But,

whether or not your list is effective in an adequate competitive environment will still remain to be seen. The common thought is that a better player will beat a poorer player who has a stronger list. While this is true however, tournaments and competitive environments bring out tougher and smarter opponents- with tougher and smarter lists.

 

There are easy fixes or mitigating elements, and tougher fixes/mitigating elements to redress these inherent imbalances in our list. I'll try and cover as many of these as possible.

New Players

At this point I must note as well that this article is NOT only for competitive or tournament players. It is a valuable resource for NEW BA players.

 

New players above all are often not aware of the strengths and weaknesses of our army.

 

I hope this article will shed some light on the units and combinations you can field to increase effectiveness of your new BA.

 

 

Overview:

 

i. Rhinos and our Troops

ii. Furiosos

iii. VAS an HG

iv. Death Company

v. Baals

vi. Special Characters

vii. Synergised Units

 

 

RHINOS and our Troops

 

Tactical Squads-

Unit to Unit Comparison

 

Would you take a Porche to an F1 race?

Its still a nice car, sure. But are you going to be able to go against the F1? (making the assumption you were allowed to ^_^ ).

 

For BA, a "base" 10 man Tactical squad with flamer and missile launcher comes in at 205 points.

C: SM "base" come in 170 - with combat tactics and better Combat Squad options.

If we factor in DC, we're paying 35 points for our "free and optional" DC.

 

Its here I must note that although some of are happy to say "oh well, id pay for DC anyway" - that doesnt mean that we have to pay more than we should - which for a tactical squad should only be 25 points using DA tacs as a base!!

 

 

With this in mind, we need to do something to mitigate this points discrepency or we are simply losing valuable points.

 

Now, for those of you who are now thinking "wait a sec- you cant just compare two similar units as if they were going against each other in a vacuum" - you are totally correct.

 

This is just a nominal comparison to highlight how our core is different and at a base disadvantage compared to other, similar units.

 

It serves to highlight that we have to mitigate this imbalance by playing to our strengths.

 

The Rhino Balancer:

 

Throw a Rhino into the mix here, and we now have a 40 point discrepancy between the "base" tac squads BUT we have a rhino that can move fast. Subtract the base cost of DC and we only have 10 point difference - for rhinos that can move 18" 50% of the time.

Its not ideal, but its better than nothing at all.

 

Razorbacks are another option.

While BA have more expensive Razors we're also at the current advantage of having a special weapon allowed in our squads at 5 men strong.

 

A SM unit with a PW, combi weapon and regular razor will come up at 40 points cheaper than BA with a regular special instead of combi, while the LasRaz comes in at 35 points more. Think of it as a premium on the special weapon. Again, not a massive or fundamental change by any means -but something thats good to note.

 

Now consider Drop Pods. 255 points for the "base" squad in BA.

C: SM - 205. A 50 point difference.

 

While I wont go as far as saying the Drop Pod Tactical squad is a poor choice for a list, we are at a distinct and obvious disadvantage over the identical unit in other marine lists - them having a better abilities on top of that.

 

So, if we want to play drop pods in BA lists (on our Tacs) we now need to mitigate this differential further (more on that later)!

 

Assault Squads-

Unit to Unit Comparison

 

No flamers.

No variable squad sizes.

Fewer Sarge load outs.

More expensive.

 

Those are the disadvantages of our Assault squads.

The obvious and most impressive advantage is, however, that they can score.

 

But, while they seem a bit naff at first, there is a reason why many people have migrated towards the RAS in Rhino - and specifically 5man squads.

It seems there are very few successful players (going by the posted results of various tournaments) that play with all jumping core of Troops.

 

Here are a few things to consider ->

 

At 155 points we get a RAS squad of 5 men in a Rhino with a powerweapon.

Comparing this to Troops of C: SM- they get their 5 Tacs in a rhino, with PW for 140.

 

Thats only a 15 points difference - before DC consideration !!!

And before over charged rhinos are considered.

 

Sure, they get bolters, but if they wish to charge then we're in a better situation hands down. Only Chaos and wolves can challenge that.

As a result this is a decent unit to field!

 

10man squads, however, lose out to marines (scoring Tacticals) in comparison. The marines now get a heavy and a special weapon in addition to their close combat weapon and the points differential shoots up to 45.

 

10 man Jumping/Rhino-borne RAS will come up about 50 points more expensive than Codex. For a unit that is supposed to be costing us only 15 points for DC, we're paying a hefty premium for our Troops status.

As a result, I believe that if we want to field them like this, we need to make sure we have something else to once again bring the cost down- relatively speaking. See special characters below.

 

While all of that is nice in a vacuum the rest of the army needs to be given adequate consideration too. Having a synergistic list that has units that work well with each other will also make this additional cost worth while. Remember that these synergistic units need to be units that specifically BA has a distinct edge with. Using synergistic units that other codices get too will simply mean that others can field the same army we can, for cheaper.

 

 

ii. FURIOSOS - Our Angry Guy.

 

There are only a few occasions where decent players in competitive environments can make walking Furiosos work. But even then, its debatable. Walking furiosos provide a relatively easy and slow target compared to other options that can put out a lot of firepower at range and be of use from turn 1.

 

But, walking or podding, no-one will debate the effectiveness of the Venerable upgrade. Hand in hand with this, even at a cost that makes us pucker up, Extra Armour almost falls into the "necessary" upgrade- even more so when used together with Venerable. A Furioso can get by if its not shooting, but if its not moving you're not charging either.

 

Furiosos in Pods with Extra armour (and a heavy flamer) will run us at 190 points. Its pricey, but its a unit that can cause havoc for pretty much all armies. Additionally, our drop pod rules mean that we have a little more flexibility in deployment as we're allowed to come in later game than our Codex brethren. This is possibly worth the 15 (20?) point premium over its closest comparison - the Iron Clad.

Therefore, a great unit to include in our armies - provided we have support for it.

 

The DC upgrade is used by some and not used by others. While it is undeniably powerful and gives the Furioso a decidedly greater edge in combat, we have to remember that a DC dreadnought follow DC rage rules. This means that we have to move him towards the closest enemy model.

Ive been privy to too many BA players (honestly) forgetting about this drawback and been on the receiving end of fruitless rhino chases to always include this upgrade - but thats not to say its not worth the cost as the extra attacks can make a huge difference- just a point to be cautious about.

 

 

iii. VAS and HG.

 

There are countless threads and information explosions on how to play or how to field VAS (Veteran Assault Squads).

 

Im not going to go into too much detail suffice to add a few notes.

This is a powerful unit to include in our army, but we need to make use of its advantages.

The two obvious advantages are the mobility and weapon load outs of this close combat unit.

 

Some people prefer full special weapon load outs, while others will have just one or two. Regardless of your preference, more than one is a usually a good idea since thats what we have over other lists.

Im a firm favourite of my units being able to handle everything they come accross, and when I field VAS I field them with Thunder Hammer, Power Weapon, Melta Gun and Flamer (285). Others will prefer a more specialised role or include more weapons.

 

While I do not think that specialised roles are necessarily worse than generalised roles, I do feel that if your army is generalised it has a good synergy. Once you divide roles, you allow the enemy to prioritise targets with greater ease. He will target the unit that poses a greater threat to him. If everything provides a threat his choices are tougher, mistakes can be made and you can monopolise your hold on the game by capitilising on them.

 

Also, ablative wounds, like on devastators, are necessary. Youre paying a quite a bit for these non-scoring units, which means every loss will hurt without ablative wounds.

 

Following on from that..

 

If we are aiming to play 5 or 6 man VAS, then I would urge you to consider an Honour Guard with Priest instead- which can help your whole army with our "old-skool" Exsanguinator. Additionally, things like the Banner are also helpful to the rest of the army.

I would strongly suggest to all BA players that whatever HG config they want to play, that the base cost of an HG in their mind should be 145 points (5men + Exsanguinator).

You can also get a very similar load out of VAS and HG.

 

Remember that the role of a 5man squad and the role of an 8/10 man squad is very different - no matter the load out (unless you're going special weapon crazy and the initial charge is all you want). That is to say the 5 man squad is more of a counter or support role unit while the 8/10man is a Hammer unit.

 

Therefore, the VAS(or HG) is a great option to include in a BA army to help give us an edge. With Jump Packs (or Rhinos if you can use them well) we can often get the charge on our enemy, bringing the full might of those special options to bare.

 

An added benefit is their ability to deploy in a DoW scenario - or their transport should you require razorback assisstance!

 

Very quick note about lightning claws. For the points you pay for LCs you can get 2 PWs.

4 LC attacks on the charge vs. 8 PW attacks - mathhammered out its 1.5 MEq wounds vs. 2 respectively.

The 2PWs are better. (Unless you have the points for the LCs and two other specials.)

 

iv. The Death Company

 

This is the primary unit of our army. It is also the premier fighting unit of the Adeptus Astartes (rules wise, not fluff wise).

Feel No Pain, Rending, 4 attacks on the charge. They're incredible.

 

I will say once more, that you do not HAVE to include DC in your army to win. You do not need to have a huge DC to do well.

 

However it is the easiest, simplest, most cost efficient and obvious way for us to get an edge with our lists.

 

BA have DC costs worked in automatically to all infantry other than scouts.

Remember that TAC squad "base unit" we mentioned before? Remember the 35 extra points we're paying? Heaven forbid you're using a 10man RAS squad with its 45 point extra DC.

 

What we can do is maximise the effectiveness of this unit, or we can throw them away and file them under "enemy distraction" and field them as 2-5 man squads. The list will only have an advantage over your enemies in the latter situation if you have the rest of your BA army built of "mitigating" units that have been listed. If its not then you dont have any intrinsic advantage over an equal or better opponent.

 

Heres a quick points comparison:

 

8 VAS - 1, Fist,2 PWs - 280

10 RAS - PF - 275

10 DC - 290 (Jump Packs and with only 2 Troops contributing)

 

People often argue that the DC are able to do damage even in squads as small as 4 or 5.

 

A 5man jumping DC would only cost us 115 (or 130points in Rhino). This is really inexpensive. If we have more infantry units contributing this price goes down. What a great deal yeah?

 

But, while this may be true in a vacuum, its likely that your DC will get shot up en route (making rhinos for small DC a good idea), or more importantly damaged during combat making subsequent rounds of combat more difficult to maintain its combat effectiveness- not to mention the fact that furious charge only helps for the turn we charge.

So, why use the best SM combat unit in the game as a fire-and-forget unit?

 

How you choose to play your DC is up to you. And while this article is trying to highlight certain points rather than be prescriptive about how you play, the DC is arguably the best and most well costed unit available to us.

 

As a result, try maximise their potential by

1. Ensuring an HQ can control them,

2. fielding enough of them to make a difference the entire game.

 

One more note is that smaller DC (5-6 members) benefit greatly with a Chaplain/Dante for the rerolls. 5 men and 20 attacks on the charge without a reroll may result in a fair 3 MEq deaths. If you're charging a 10man squad, then counter attacks with a fist are only going to do 1.25 unsaved wounds back. However, in the next round, you're only doing 12 attacks - now at same initiative and strength. You're likely to have tarpitted yourself and resigned yourself to a slow death.

 

Either grab a Chaplain (who's PW will also help) or grab a few more DC !

 

In summary -

Smaller DCs with Chaplains work nicely.

Smaller DCs without are wasting our most powerful close combat unit.

Bigger DCs without are fine.

Big DCs with Chaplains are atomic.

 

With an 8 man DC lead by a Chaplain, you can easily wipe out a 10man Marine squad on the charge.

That same squad can also wipe out a squad of Ork boys of up to 25 Orks!!!

Remember that for when you face the counter charge or the counter shooting to a good charge.

 

The DC is one of our greatest assets and one of our greatest all rounders. Use them! And use them wisely.

 

v. The Baal Predator

 

I've heard people complain about the cost of the Baal.

 

For me, 125 points for a tank that is Fast 50% of the time with: AV 13 front, 2 Heavy Bolters and a Twin-Linked Assault Cannon is perfectly priced.

 

The Baal is an exceptional all round unit. The twin-linked AC is statistically better that a Lascanon for destroying heavy armour - but its true power shines against infantry. Even MEq suffer with the amount of saves forced - not to mention rending.

The rending also helps with pesky Monstrous Creatures.

 

Weapons aside, theres the fact that we can advance with our army, or reposition our army and still maintain all our fire capability 50% of the time. For the other 33% we can reposition 6" and still make use of a great AC - and for the sucky 13% - we will have to make do with the heavy bolters and potentially the AC if we're lucky and in range. Mobile cover like this is worth its weight in gold.

 

For 125 points, this tank has a vital role in every BA army.

 

In fact, in all the major tournament winning BA armies, no matter how "off-the-wall" they have been (Jawa's Dread Pod list (11/09) ) or the Seattle Razor list (sorry dude- ill try get your name! ><;) or even Sagnus's 6th Place UK GT Mephiston list , they have had one thing in common:

The Baal Predator (at least two each).

 

For 125 we can even afford to put this all-rounder in very low point games where we suffer most as BA players due to our restrictive costs.

As a result, if you're thinking of maximising your BAs effectiveness....then get a pair.

 

 

vi. Unique Units- AKA: Special Characters

 

If you are playing in an environment that "does not allow" special characters- then you have my utmost sympathies.

 

5th Edition has unique units. Not Special Characters.

They are as much a part of the game and list design as a predator, an attack bike or a Tactical squad is.

 

Many people will handicap themselves with the argument that:

 

"SCs should only be used in rare and unique times of battle"

 

I'd like refer those people to Koyote's counter thought:

 

"Yes. We call those rare and unique times of battle '40k'! "

 

There are three characters that stand out above all - and they really need little introduction.

 

There are 3 more beyond this that are also worth mentioning.

a. The Big Three

 

i. Corbulo

ii. Dante

iii. Lemartes

 

The abilities of these unique HQs speak for themselves.

 

Corbulo is possibly one of the best bang per buck HQs in our list considering what he gives to our army.

However, its important to note that because he lacks hardcore close combat hitting power, we really need to consider the structure of our army a little more than say a Chaplain or a Captain.

If we play Corbulo as our single HQ, we not only need to make sure that we have enough units to benefit from his ability, we also have to make sure our close combat potential is adequate. Even our dreadnoughts benefit from him!

He can also control the DC - but if its only a 5 man DC - remember what we said above!!

Corbulo works well as a Primary HQ, but works incredibly well when paired with one more - usually of any kind!

There is one thing you have to consider too - he WILL need a transport. Unless youre playing infantry heavy or very shooty counter, Corbulo will need a tranport to keep up with your spearhead.

That aside- Corbs is a fantastic HQ that is a great force multiplier.

 

 

Dante is the BA powerhouse.

Abilities and buffs out the wazoo- and personal combat ability to match. The benefit he gives to our army is obvious and undeniable. His only drawback aside from his hefty cost (which is more than fairly priced!) is the fact that he cant control the DC.

So, if we take everything said above about DC into serious consideration, we usually wind up with quite a few points invested in HQ.

If we take him, the Preferred Enemy usuallynegates the need for a Chaplain, making his obvoius pairing Corbulo- leading to even more death and destruction for our enemies.

While Dante I have personally found that it is very difficult to fit Dante into 1500 lists, his inclusion in 1750+ lists structure our forces for a considerably assault themed army - that few other assualt armies can stand up to.

He is the ultimate force multiplier and really levels the playing field for our overpriced core.

 

 

Lemartes - for 5 points more than a regular jumping Chaplain we have 1 more wound and the Death Mask. Why not?

He gives us decent combat ability and makes for a powerful charge and can control the DC. A great option for a single HQ choice and the poor man's Corbulo/Dante - The Lem/Corbs comes in at a nice 75 points cheaper than the previous combo..

 

 

In summary, these 3 characters turn the BA from sturdy into something very competitive and scary. It changes our entire army from manageable (for many of our opponents) to "RUN AWAY!" (unless they have built to counter something like this!).

They give us one of the few (only?) options for beating ork horde spam and now, a good match for SW Blinged Grey Hunter, spam.

 

The Other 3: (Non Specials)

 

i. Mephiston

ii. The Chaplain

iii. The Captain

 

While Mephiston is no longer the unstoppable force he was in 4th Ed. thanks to IC targetting and FNP changes, he still has a helluva punch. He's not a force multiplier by any means, but can often lay waste to tough squads with relative ease.

His LD10 hood also means hes the only "in-codex" way of getting an LD10 Hood (and an Old-skool hood to boot!). If your army lacks combat punch - he can almost single handedly provide it. Again, you dont NEED a 2nd HQ like Sagnus proved- but you still need to maximise the potential of the rest of your army.

 

The humble chaplain is most often than not overlooked by many.

However, my advice is that if you are willing to try a DC in a rhino, you can save yourself a decent 25points by fielding 8 DC in a rhino with a regular Chaplain.

200 Points for a Corbulo/Chaplain combo really evens out your problems with close combat that Corbs lacks.

Not to mention additional wargear you may want.

 

The humbler Captain. If you want a cheap, cheap HQ that can fight decently and gives your army a minor buff (LD10 accross the board) and youre not planning on maximising the DC -then the Captain is a great choice. He may not be my personal favourite or even in my top 4 HQ selections- but the fact that he can provide HQ powerweapon killyness and Ld10 is decent enough to have it work. Jawaball's recent tourney win using just a captain is testament to this.

 

 

vi. Synergised Units

 

 

I have included this category to mention certain elements that, by themselves may have no benefit over the same or similar codex equivalent but, work exceptionally well when fielded together.

 

Terminators for example (either assault or tactical) work exceptionally well with Corbulo. Furious Charge is only one benefit -the second being his ability to ignore one of their failed saves every turn.

Further to this we have the fact that once the 30 point DC is worked in - its a great unit in some lists.

If you have the points for an Honour Guard on top of this, 2 failed saves ignored every turn makes your 5man squad a complete nightmare for opponents.

 

Another example is attack bikes. Since our heavy slots are often filled with Baals, our multi-melta biker squads provide wonderful anti-tank ability. With Rites of Battle for example -they can have LD 10 which helps loads.

Even on the charge a squad of 3 means they get 9 init 5, s5 attcaks with Corbs (and his ability to ignore their failed saves can help even more!)

 

Scouts - while theyre often scoffed at can have something to add to a list. Furious Charging infiltrating/outflanking scouts can put the hurt on whatever they charge. They may not be the best option, but its a good combo with Corbs - and an inexpensive way to get the amount of WS4, I5, S5 attacks they can get!

 

Land Raiders are often helpful if we run a strong assault element, either with the Corbs/Dante, Corbs alone or a Chaplain in the mix. What our LRs lack in shooting compared to codex marines, they make up for in mobility ! Making it a popular choice for bigger BA lists.

 

CONCLUSION:

 

As mentioned at the beginning, some players will be able to pull a win out of a list with very few of these points taken into consideration. After all, BA are Space Marines and SMs are at base quite tough.

 

This article is not trying to say: "Play these units or lose!".

 

However, the constant and continued effectiveness of a list that does not factor in any of the afore mentioned BA strengths will come into question in an equal environment simply based on the fact that without these factors worked into our lists we are at an intrinsic and undeniable disadvantage.

 

The nice thing about this too, is that all the units mentioned are fairly fluffy to boot. Furiosos, Furious Charging marines, Baal Preds etc - all of them work nicely to our BA feel and our strengths.

 

 

I hope this article will allow new players to field good, strong BA armies that will show their opponents we are not to be trifled with. And I hope that it will give older or more competitive players something more to think about when designing their lists - even if its just a rehash and structuring of what they already knew.

 

Good hunting!

For Sanguinius and the Emperor!

 

-Morticon

[BorisBC]

wow mate, this is an excellent article! I'm not new to BA's, but have returned to the 40k world just recently. This has given me some excellent points to think about! I've already converted one pred to a Baal, and I'm have a good think about doing the other one too! Also, I was going to run a tooled up VAS, but for the same price as an HG, I think having that extra save might be worth it, plus it frees up another slot on the Force Org chart, which is awesome.

 

Thanks again!

[Angelus Mortifer]

Wicked article Mort. For someone who has up until fairly recently just built lists based on what models look cool and what I like to paint (within FOC of course), the time has come to think more competitively - and your article has come at just the right time. Cheers for the hard work...

[Logain the Ranger]

Very good article on what makes the BA competitive is the BA.

[daboarder]

loved it mate!

Is it possible to get it sticky'ed, atleast until the new codex comes out, and maybe at that time we could update it.

[The Crimson Cartel]

Nice work Mort! You are your usual helpful self.. :) A mate of mine just put a stamp on his Tau, and has started a fledgling BA force ( you may see some of his work here shortly... Art institute grad and all..,) and i'll be passing this article on to him as well as keeping it for myself. Thanks for putting in the time.

 

-CC

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Just my thoughts summerized as I read along.

 

10pt difference for rhinos that can move at 18" 50% of the time. Stall 16% of the time and a lack of Combat Tactics and worse Combat Squad Rules. Lets not sugar coat it Mort. :)

 

On RAS, 25pts per DC not 20 on assault squads as far as I know. At least reltively speaking 25pts for every DC thats coming free wit a squad except the elites.

 

Furioso is not pricey at 190 or at least I would never have thought of it that way. Its a 20pt Premium as far as I know. 170pts for a Ironclad with 1 Heavy Flamer in Pod. The DC rage rules are not nearly as terrible as the normal Rage rules. Alittle clever playing and its not hard to Mitigate them.

 

VAS Correct me if Im wrong but a Vanguard Squad can be equipped entirely with Special Weapons. That seems like more then 0-3 to me. Incase you didnt think I was being nitpicky enough, I dont think I've ever heard the term Monopolise used in such a way and it does not jive with my understanding of it. Are you acquiring all your opponents mistakes? Or what? I assume you meant that you would gain an advantage from it??

 

I had never considered deploying an HG in a DOW scenairio. Very interesting thought there.

 

I would format your DC with & Without Chaplain thin to be either Big Big Small Small Or Without Without With With. if you see my meaning.

 

Dante in 1500pts, Man up Morts Dante fits in just fine in 1500pts, just gotta drop the purty extras.

 

Lemartes is 175pts cheaper then Dante & Corbulo. 300-125 = 175 morts ;) Unless you mean Lemartes is just 75 pts cheaper then Dante in which case you're right you just phrased it oddly in my books.

[tahrikmili]

Good article overall. However a couple of things that could have been pointed out:

 

RAS

I can't find a point effective way of fielding these boys. Don't get me wrong, I like them. But:

1) at 5 man, they are easily hidden but can't really assault many things

2) at 10 man they are too hard to hide and still can't assault many things

3) Put them in a Rhino and they lose a round of combat at best, risk losing their mobility right away at worst.

 

The real problem is +1A means little against anything other than soft infantry who are easily shot to pieces with Bolters anyway. They are overpriced for what they do compared to Codex brethren who can take special weapons - justifying them is HARD. Yes they are troops but they aren't as good at that role as Tacticals IMO.

 

That said, I do field 2 5 man jumppack squads of these with Power Fists and hide them behind Rhinos. If they manage to bust a tank, they are gold. Otherwise, they just hang around for an opportunity assault or a last turn objective grab. Yet, I feel they are a bit of a waste of points. I trust holding objectives to my Tactical Squad with Power Fist, Multi-Melta, Plasmagun and a Rhino. I might ditch one or both of these in the future. Problem is, they look cool and add variety. :D

 

Honor Guard

Poor Man's VAS. If you'll field a VAS at 5 man size, just go for Honor Guard instead. The Priest is invaluable. Priest with Power Weapon, Standard Baerer with Power Fist, Meltagun, Flamer, 1 ablative wound = Winner. Put them in a Razorback with a cheap second HQ like a Captain with a Power Sword and they will be really impressive.

 

VAS

Do not overlook this unit's shooting capabilities:

1) This unit can take 2 special weapons

2) This unit can take 3 combi weapons or 3 plasma pistols

3) This unit can take infinite Storm Shields

4) This unit can take free Rhino or Drop Pod

 

Kit a VAS with 2 Meltaguns, 3 Combi Plasmas (or alternatively, 2 Meltaguns, 3 Plasma Pistols - my favorite ) and you have a Sternguard that's better and cheaper than a Sternguard. If you have the points, a Storm Shield or two to the Combi guys (or the pistol guys) and as above, add a cheap Captain with Power Fist or Thunder Hammer. With the free Drop Pod or Rhino, this unit will both confuse and rattle your opponent.

[Morticon]

Good article overall. However a couple of things that could have been pointed out:

 

RAS

I can't find a point effective way of fielding these boys. Don't get me wrong, I like them. But:

1) at 5 man, they are easily hidden but can't really assault many things

2) at 10 man they are too hard to hide and still can't assault many things

3) Put them in a Rhino and they lose a round of combat at best, risk losing their mobility right away at worst.

 

The real problem is +1A means little against anything other than soft infantry who are easily shot to pieces with Bolters anyway. They are overpriced for what they do compared to Codex brethren who can take special weapons - justifying them is HARD. Yes they are troops but they aren't as good at that role as Tacticals IMO.

I agree 100%. My standard two Troop choices are 90% of the time Tacticals! But I have had great success with RAS as support units. Usually in 5man load out- i run PW, PP (170). Usually in a Rhino, but depending on my army build with Jump Packs. As noted in the article, the points we pay for a Rhino borne troop unit at that size is really good. Other players Jawa (and maybe BO too) use the 5man with really good success, and even though its not my experience, it seems to be the case for other people. Also, to your point three, while they may lose their mobility soon - I think this is where your army design comes into play. If the enemy wants to shoot at a 5man squad in a Rhino, and hes not going to be punished by your list for doing so, then there may be a design problem there. And as far as losing a round of combat, ive had fantastic success with rhino borne squads getting the charge.

 

 

Honor Guard

Poor Man's VAS. If you'll field a VAS at 5 man size, just go for Honor Guard instead. The Priest is invaluable. Priest with Power Weapon, Standard Baerer with Power Fist, Meltagun, Flamer, 1 ablative wound = Winner. Put them in a Razorback with a cheap second HQ like a Captain with a Power Sword and they will be really impressive.

 

Agreed 100% ! Thats the point I tried to make <_< .

 

VAS

Do not overlook this unit's shooting capabilities:

1) This unit can take 2 special weapons

2) This unit can take 3 combi weapons or 3 plasma pistols

3) This unit can take infinite Storm Shields

4) This unit can take free Rhino or Drop Pod

 

Kit a VAS with 2 Meltaguns, 3 Combi Plasmas (or alternatively, 2 Meltaguns, 3 Plasma Pistols - my favorite ) and you have a Sternguard that's better and cheaper than a Sternguard. If you have the points, a Storm Shield or two to the Combi guys (or the pistol guys) and as above, add a cheap Captain with Power Fist or Thunder Hammer. With the free Drop Pod or Rhino, this unit will both confuse and rattle your opponent.

 

You're totally right on the VAS. I thought I mentioned the two special weapons (your point1) - but i dont think i was clear on it!

 

In fact I was going to write in more detail about the shooting role, but as I mentioned in the intro to the VAS section, I didnt want to be too prescriptive about load outs since there are big threads dedicated to that. That being said, I'll definitely add to it - (I even have a bolter VAS for a pod complete with combis and specials!)

I do however have to say that I dont know how good the Storm shields are- 10 points for a 4+ save in combat makes me cringe. I also like to keep my models cheap. That said however, I wont knock it till I try it! Cheers for the input.

[JamesI]

Very well written. Get it to the Librarium before the codex becomes obsolete!

[Morticon]

Just my thoughts summerized as I read along.

 

10pt difference for rhinos that can move at 18" 50% of the time. Stall 16% of the time and a lack of Combat Tactics and worse Combat Squad Rules. Lets not sugar coat it Mort. :)

 

Lad, the whole point was that by using the advantage of that mobility with a synergistic unit (in the case of HQ) you can do well for yourself and mitigate the points you pay.

 

On RAS, 25pts per DC not 20 on assault squads as far as I know. At least reltively speaking 25pts for every DC thats coming free wit a squad except the elites.

 

Really need my dexs when talking points!! ><;

On RAS its 15 points for the DC Bob

So we're both wrong there!

 

 

Furioso is not pricey at 190 or at least I would never have thought of it that way.

190 Points for 2 KPs and essentially 1 unit with AV12 is quite pricey. But as mentioned it can be worth it

 

Its a 20pt Premium as far as I know. 170pts for a Ironclad with 1 Heavy Flamer in Pod.

 

Ill take your word for now! I dont have my SM dex on me! Can anyone else back this up?

The DC rage rules are not nearly as terrible as the normal Rage rules. Alittle clever playing and its not hard to Mitigate them.

How so? I think the USR Rage is better since it can be controlled with field of vision. You cant stop your opponent parking an empty vehicle or useless unit closer to you than he moves his primary squad. So theres nothing you can do "clever playing" wise in that situation, no?

 

VAS Correct me if Im wrong but a Vanguard Squad can be equipped entirely with Special Weapons. That seems like more then 0-3 to me.

You mean more "than" 0-3?

 

Incase you didnt think I was being nitpicky enough....

 

 

I would format your DC with & Without Chaplain thin to be either Big Big Small Small Or Without Without With With. if you see my meaning.

Will try do! Should be easier to read!

 

Dante in 1500pts, Man up Morts Dante fits in just fine in 1500pts, just gotta drop the purty extras.

 

Sure. I'll just take the example from that list you used to get top 10 of the Canadian GT yeah Bob? :)

He can fit in- i used him in a 1500 and won 1st place in a very big cut-throat tourney. But, that was a double tourney. Singles I coulda been chomped. Im not saying you cant- just saying its tough. And if it wasn't tough- you'd be seeing more BA players using him at the UK GT (1500 tournies).

 

Lemartes is 175pts cheaper then Dante & Corbulo. 300-125 = 175 morts ;) Unless you mean Lemartes is just 75 pts cheaper then Dante in which case you're right you just phrased it oddly in my books.

You should know what I mean dude. He's 75 cheaper than the C/D combo. I'll fix that up though- it doesnt read well

 

cheers.

[JamesI]

I think you have the special characters ranked right. Corbulo has become without a doubt our best HQ, I think.

 

He's cheap, makes a whole lot of stuff effective (such as those 10 man overcosted RASs). Not as potent as Dante, but half the cost. The need for Corbulo in a transport brings me back to one advantage our tacs have. 5 man tacticals in rhinos/razorbacks with a special weapon as a bodygaurd for Corbulo.

 

I could try an HG or RAS or VAS to protect Corbulo, but as Corbulo himself isn't a great combat character, I feel he belongs with a unit that can shoot. Even drive up a 5 man tac with plasmagun, fire away, while Corbulo buffs the combat units around him.

 

Part of the reason I suggest the Corbulo/Lemartes combo over the Corbulo/Dante combo is DC control. I like having Lemartes and Corbulo on opposite ends of my line moving forward and the DC can go basically anywhere and still have one of the 2 nearby.

[Flexilex]

Very good article!

Make it a sticky until the new codex arrives.

[mugginns]

I am definitely digging this article. I've played jump pack BA for a while now and I'm tired of losing. I also don't use any special characters because I think they're lame but I'm definitely going to start using Lemartes and Corbulo - I'm tired of losing. I like the idea of Corbulo and the Sanguinary Priest leading the army, so I'll make up some fluff about him being a different guy.

 

I think my list is going to be split between tac squads, RAS, and a VAS. I like assault squads so much. It'll be all mech with some Baals and then all my troops in rhinos.

 

edit: If I use lemartes, he can't ride in a rhino with the DC, right?

[Morticon]

I am definitely digging this article. I've played jump pack BA for a while now and I'm tired of losing. I also don't use any special characters because I think they're lame but I'm definitely going to start using Lemartes and Corbulo - I'm tired of losing. I like the idea of Corbulo and the Sanguinary Priest leading the army, so I'll make up some fluff about him being a different guy.

 

I think my list is going to be split between tac squads, RAS, and a VAS. I like assault squads so much. It'll be all mech with some Baals and then all my troops in rhinos.

 

edit: If I use lemartes, he can't ride in a rhino with the DC, right?

 

Sadly not! ><; Ive been running Corbs and regular chaplain though with great success. Managed to win the last store tourney we had here with that combo.

 

My advice would be that if you dont like SCs- try one first, and work it from there. The mech approach seems fun!

Good luck!

[mugginns]

I am definitely digging this article. I've played jump pack BA for a while now and I'm tired of losing. I also don't use any special characters because I think they're lame but I'm definitely going to start using Lemartes and Corbulo - I'm tired of losing. I like the idea of Corbulo and the Sanguinary Priest leading the army, so I'll make up some fluff about him being a different guy.

 

I think my list is going to be split between tac squads, RAS, and a VAS. I like assault squads so much. It'll be all mech with some Baals and then all my troops in rhinos.

 

edit: If I use lemartes, he can't ride in a rhino with the DC, right?

 

Sadly not! ><; Ive been running Corbs and regular chaplain though with great success. Managed to win the last store tourney we had here with that combo.

 

My advice would be that if you dont like SCs- try one first, and work it from there. The mech approach seems fun!

Good luck!

Yeah I'm looking at my list and I think it will be competitive. I'm focusing on meltaguns and power weapons. I usually use powerfists but I hate how they attack last and I usually miss with them. I'm also gonna try out my honor guard models that I've only ever used once before.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Lad, the whole point was that by using the advantage of that mobility with a synergistic unit (in the case of HQ) you can do well for yourself and mitigate the points you pay.

Thats fair I just never really believed that the Engines are typically worth risking that one. Leaving a nearly 300pt unit in the dust

 

 

Really need my dexs when talking points!! ><;

On RAS its 15 points for the DC Bob

So we're both wrong there!

 

Thats entirely possible. I just went off half remembered ideas of everything being 25pts. :D

 

 

190 Points for 2 KPs and essentially 1 unit with AV12 is quite pricey. But as mentioned it can be worth it

Its also just about the most survivable dread and possible the best dread in the game though. B)

 

(I just double checked Iron Clads they are 180 with Pod & 1 Heavy Flamer my mistake)

 

How so? I think the USR Rage is better since it can be controlled with field of vision. You cant stop your opponent parking an empty vehicle or useless unit closer to you than he moves his primary squad. So theres nothing you can do "clever playing" wise in that situation, no?

The rage USR controls you in the shooting and Assault. The Deathcompany are only forced to do anything in the movement phase. Thats 1/3rd of the time.

 

You mean more "than" 0-3?

and I thought I was doing so well too...

 

 

Sure. I'll just take the example from that list you used to get top 10 of the Canadian GT yeah Bob? :P

He can fit in- i used him in a 1500 and won 1st place in a very big cut-throat tourney. But, that was a double tourney. Singles I coulda been chomped. Im not saying you cant- just saying its tough. And if it wasn't tough- you'd be seeing more BA players using him at the UK GT (1500 tournies).

*Sniffles* If we had one you'd better believe I woulda been there... :P :(

[Isryion]

Great stuff -- both the original article an the discussion. I'd support the sticky notion.

[Mullinstron]

Its strange but i seem to have a very counter experience than many of you to playing the BA.

 

My army consists of mostly jump troops. I take a Tac for the Rhino and the Rhino alone. A normal 1k list for me is:

Lemmy

DC

RAS

TAC rhino

3mm attack bikes

 

You can extrapolate from that my further lists.

 

I take Mostly jump troops. And i win 75-80% of the time.

 

For me its easy you advance behind the rhino. The attack bikes zip to cover. Turn 2 the attack bikes kill what they need to kill the rest of the guys advance one more or jump into combat.

 

Its VERY effective.

 

Everyone i play is scared of the DC. If you take at least 7 with jumpacks and lemmy they are pretty much unstoppable. The only thing that is a scare is sealers and i would even tackle that head on if I had to.

 

Jumpacks have a range of up to 18 inches. You jump and then you run. If your rhino gets its overcharge its got a range of 18. You can be in somebodys mix turn 2 and deny them any shots at your jump packers with your rhinos. At the very least you can get 4+ cover.

 

I just thought i would share an alternative experience. Its very effective and strangely very different from how I'm reading a lot of BA play.

 

~m

[JamesI]

Mullingstron, I play similiarly (just with 2 rhinos and 3 jump units at 1850, at 1000 I'd have 1 rhino, 2 jump units).

 

I assume in larger games you do add more rhinos, as you'd run out of space for all the jumpers pretty quick. Or do you add other vehicles for mobile cover (baals and Vindis as the best example)

[Mullinstron]

@James

 

Fully. It sounds like we have a similar play style.

 

I also advance behind Baals on turn 1 boosting them 12. I will normally take baals and another RAS at 1500. For 1850 and more I might take half a tac with a rhino just to get in that mobile wall. it depends on what im fighting.

 

Most of the time i just try to advance 1 jump squad behind cover and 1 behind the rhino. I have not used Vidis with my Baals yet, but i do think that 2 baals and a vindi would be magic together.

 

Honestly i hope that devastators will be better in the new dex, so i can take them and use the rhino for a wall.

 

Currently i just feel like you cant argue with 3-4 MM attack bikes for the price. They scare the snot out of folks and they do a good job. When you combine them with Baals you get a pretty good anti tank combo.

 

Just thinking about it i think i figgured out why i never take Corbs. I always take a chappy for the DC. If you haven't tried it I highly suggest it. 40 rending, rerolling str 5 I 5 attacks is nothing to sneeze at.

 

So with this out of the way I will say that whenever i have the points for a second HQ i take Mephiston. This is not a points thing, this is not a effectiveness thing. Its just that i love him.

 

He also scares the bujesus out of anyone but Abbadon so there is that as well!

 

I will have to try a corbs and the DC one of these days!

 

Till then Corbs only shows up in Apoc for me. Why cant i give that guy a jump pack!

~m

[Sabadin]

So with this out of the way I will say that whenever i have the points for a second HQ i take Mephiston. This is not a points thing, this is not a effectiveness thing. Its just that i love him.

 

He also scares the bujesus out of anyone but Abbadon so there is that as well!

 

Now imagine that with furious charge :rolleyes:, THAT really scares the bujebus out of near everything.

[Morticon]

I just thought i would share an alternative experience. Its very effective and strangely very different from how I'm reading a lot of BA play.

 

~m

 

Well- as far as the article goes your army list falls nicely into what was discussed. You run a big DC - which at 1k is a great, great cost effective and deadly unit- and what was spoken about as effective in the article!

You also make use of our mobility via scoring jump troops and the Tac mobility via the rhino - also discussed! :rolleyes:

Good to know it works!

Get some BatReps up sometime!!

[Mullinstron]

What i see as the difference from what I'm reading mort is that i use a chappy and never put any of my assault guys in rhinos. (Err it was more of the replys and less of the article that made me feel like i was playing a bit different to be honest). I hide behind the rhinos and then jump over them.

 

I play space wolves as well and it does play different IMO if you play tank marines. Very effective but it seems to me that having RAS that are jumpers is a huge advantage. I miss the mobility all the time when I'm playing the wolves.

 

I guess i should have just been more clear. I just never run assault marines in tanks. It seems like those who do love corbs and i can see why. To me it seems like running the list a different way. Honestly its peeked my interest. Reading this thread i have seen a lot of ways to use the army that i had not thought of. It is interesting to me since i really never saw Corbs as a viable HQ for the most part. Heck i even have him modeled with a jump pack since i just used to use him as a HP!

 

So when are they going to give him a jump pack option and a power sword! :)

 

@sab LOL thats what peeked my interest!

 

Oh and by the way very nice article! ;)

 

~m

[Morticon]

Im gonna sticky this a week from now, since a lot of posters miss the stickies! Rather get it out and about for a while before it goes up :) shameless promotion.