Captain Agosto Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Great Article Mort! I'll be planning on using it as I build my army... I had a few questions regarding 5 man RAS in Rhinos. Would these units be mainly to provide a wall for other rhinos to advance? The 5 man RAS units would be used to support failing assaults or just boost assaults you wanted to win before the counter attack right? I've only ever been fond of Chaos Dreadnoughts with 2 CCWs... the furioso does intrigue me... but I am just having trouble seeing how a dreadnought can be effective drop podding when most armies have a decent amount of AV.. how can you make sure the dread just doesn't get smacked down right after landing? Do you use the Drop Pod to provide a cover save? I am pretty sure I will be starting up a blood angels army. When I do it will be Angels Sanguine. Just waiting for my paints to arrive... Being trapped at a Ski resort makes it hard to get supplies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2203350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 I guess i should have just been more clear. I just never run assault marines in tanks. It seems like those who do love corbs and i can see why. To me it seems like running the list a different way. Honestly its peeked my interest. Reading this thread i have seen a lot of ways to use the army that i had not thought of. It is interesting to me since i really never saw Corbs as a viable HQ for the most part. Heck i even have him modeled with a jump pack since i just used to use him as a HP! So when are they going to give him a jump pack option and a power sword! :) ~m I love Corbs, and I have yet to run assault squads in a rhino (though I am considering it, it would save me 20 points on a 5 man tac in a rhino, but I'd lose a flamer in the process). I think Crobulo or Dante is necessary to make up for the sheer number of points we pay for Assault squads, and even without a jump pack Corbulo can do that job well hidden with a small tac squad in a rhino. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2203569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mugginns Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 I tried out my rhino list last night. Played against C:SM with Abaddon. His tac marines have the same amount of attacks as my assault marines =/ I did pretty well, made a tactical mistake of thinking 3 squads (10 man vets, 5 man assault, chaplain + corbs + death company) could take out Abaddon and 3 terminators. At the end he had no troops left and just Abaddon and an obliterator. I couldn't break out of combat so he killed my dudes. Next time I'll just shoot the hell out of Abaddon and termies with Baals and avoid him. I really hate playing against C:SM, though, because it feels like they can do everything I can do but better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2203904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurrey Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 I have to say Ive read quite abit about BA over the last year but this has churned up some very interesting food for thought. Much appreciated and very well written nice n concise. My thanks to you Morticon for a very informative article. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2204118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seva Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Can this be sticky'd? I'd like to refer to this often. Obey the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2204423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 Can this be sticky'd? I'd like to refer to this often. Obey the Emperor. Yup yup! it will be stickied in a few days - just getting the word out some :rolleyes: Hurrey- thanks for that!! And welcome to the forums. Muggins - Abaddon is my nemesis, which is fitting for a BA. But he causes me grief every tourney. Ive faced him 4 times in the last 4 serious tournies. My game ratio over that time was 18 played - 14W, 3D, 1 L - Abaddon was responsible for 2 Draws and the 1 Loss ! So I feel your pain. When fighting CSM (and now wolves too) its really really important to have an advantage over them. If you can outshoot them, great. If not, the only way you can outfight them is with a better unit like the DC- or with the help of Corbulo. Koyotes advice to me once was "never, ever fight a fair fight". Thats my advice in this case! Agosto - If im not mistaken BO and definitely Jawa make extensive use of the 5man RAS. (Or did?) I only use one, and very rarely, though not in tourney play, 2. When I use it, it is largely for a support role. However, the way I field my core is so that I can deal with every problem (my point about generalisation), so if I find that I need more support in the front line and a squad to claim on home plate, ill combat squad and let the RAS play support to the 5man TAC - usually helping with the counter charge. The last tourney I played in however I used jumping RAS - and although they make perfect attackers, I kept them in strategic reserve to delay their arrival while my TACs zoomed off to the front line. In the end, they were the squad that won my the game by being able to jump (then run) from a position of cover to claim 2 objectives. As far as furiosos are concerned, it depends on your list. I have exactly the same concern as you, which is why I have not fielded this unit in any of the last big tournies I have played in. That being said, Jawa and Sagnus both managed to pull really good results from their use. As mentioned, your list is one aspect that needs to be factored. Your dready has only a 50% chance of coming in 2nd turn, which means if you have enough armoured threats baring down on the enemy by the 2nd turn (eg: Rhino DC/Rhino TACs/Baals) this will dilute the heavy weapon fire and again make target priority a nightmare for your opponent when that unit does come in. I think most players (myself included when I do use him) make use of the pod for cover. Alternatively, I will sometimes forego shooting and pop smoke if there are enough threats about and the return of a melta and heavy flamer shot will not be worth the risk. Hope that helps! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2204535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am Legion Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 BA are a strong army when used correctly (I use the term loosly of course). We fight with a handful of units, making it a very small army with everyone working overtime, not like a vanilla army where you feel like you have too many units to work with. And just so everyone knows, you don't need any of the special characters to do well, and I've proven that myself on many occasions, as I don't use them. But when that special character is included, your army is suddenly boosted to high levels. BOBMAKENZIE proved that to me when he used Dante at that doubles tournie with myself. Dante Alone made that army unstoppable (that poor necron/tyranid army was crushed to the last man by turn 4 or 5). I still think that BA are restricted at 1500 points, and I say that because it's the main size that I play at. As soon as you go up to 1750, it's suddenly alot more flexible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2205223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 wow mort an amazing article mort :P nice job! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2205546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
horza Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Thanks Morticon - this put logically many of the thoughts I have been having putting my AS list and army together atm. Especially using a Chaplain and HG. I was looking at using a HG with Chappy and DC as a low cost extreme killy assault squad rather than using VAS or 10 man RAS Nice to know my ideas were leading in a realistic direction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2205898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jawaballs Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I like your article Mort. I think a good point, that you make in your substantial explanation, is that of all the Marine Codex books, the Blood Angels have the best ability to "Think out side the box." That is what leads to being "Effective". When 5th edition came around and I put all my assault boys in Rhinos, guys winced at my lack of assault packs. Then I won tournaments. Then in order to remain "effective" when melta spam neutralized the OCE Fast Rhino rush, I switched it up with 2 or 3 ven dreads in pods and had no assault squads at all. Guys snickered, I crushed them. We don't have all the great options that the Generic boys get, but we have our own. When we use them in an unexpected way, the Blood Angels can beat any army on the table. Jawaballs Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2211579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted December 11, 2009 Author Share Posted December 11, 2009 I like your article Mort. I think a good point, that you make in your substantial explanation, is that of all the Marine Codex books, the Blood Angels have the best ability to "Think out side the box." That is what leads to being "Effective". When 5th edition came around and I put all my assault boys in Rhinos, guys winced at my lack of assault packs. Then I won tournaments. Then in order to remain "effective" when melta spam neutralized the OCE Fast Rhino rush, I switched it up with 2 or 3 ven dreads in pods and had no assault squads at all. Guys snickered, I crushed them. We don't have all the great options that the Generic boys get, but we have our own. When we use them in an unexpected way, the Blood Angels can beat any army on the table. Jawaballs Agreed and Cheers! :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2211836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodworthy Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Excellent article Mort. One unit that I think has been over looked has been assault terminators. Put them in a Crusader with Corbulo riding shotgun, Dante nearby, and they wreck anything you point them at. If you have 4 x Lightning Claws and 1 TH/SS the unit throws 16 reroll to hit init 5 strength 5 reroll to wound attacks and 3 strength 9 reroll to hit power weapon attacks on the charge. Moving the Crusader 12", disembark 3.49" (1.99" disembark to the back of the base + 1.5" termie base), and a 6" charge = 21.49" charge. Even if they are left standing to get shot during your opponents turn they draw so much fire power that the rest of you army pretty much goes untouched. Once your opponent sees thier destructive power all he thinks about is destroying that unit. They are the perfect answer to the smurf's TH/SS termies, even with thier 3+ invul saves. If you can multi-charge several units on the initial assualt all the better. Yes 200 pts + 250 for the Crusader is expensive but they are worth it. Then Corbs is riding around in a Crusader providing a much bigger bubble for Furious Charge and Exsanguinator. If you oppoenent focuses on the Crusader to keep the termies from charging, great, the rest of you army can do what they need to. I've found that I get greater results out of this combination than I ever did using VAS. Its simple and deadly. P.S. : As far as units adding DC you dont get any cheaper. 200pts for 5 Terminators and 1 DC, its nothing but good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2212778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Hi Mort! Great article. :D I never run 5 man RAS squads in rhinos at 1750+ points. Hee! At 1000-1500 points I will run 5 man assault squads with power fist, plasma pistol and jump packs. Here is the old core of my 1750+ point armies: 2x 10 tactical Marines/power fist, lascannon, meltagun - rhino 10 assault Marines/power fist, 2x plasma pistol - rhino I have since switched out the assault Marines for six Grey Knights including the Justicar: psycannon, incinerator, psychic hood, psy bolts I run them in the DC rhino and my DC ride in a landraider with Corbs. The Grey Knights are so much better than an assault squad, you can't even really compare the two plus the Grey Knights also count as a scoring unit. Grey Knights in a rhino are unbelievably good, the transport makes such a big difference. This squad also sneaks in an old skool hood which is always useful versus double lash. One point I would like to add is that if you are running Dante & Corbs I think it's worth it to add a squad of assault terminators riding in a landraider. They are definitely a top tiered assault assault squad and cheaper than a 10 man squad of assault Marines. Basically on the charge with 4 sets of lightning claws that's 16 attacks at I5 S5 that reroll both hits and wounds. It will vaporize anything except for Abbadon due his crazy I6 unless you get lucky and he pokes himself in the eye. My goal for BA is to keep down the KPs and field hammer units. My army can shoot reasonably well with six lascannons (2x landraider & 2x tacticals) which is very important versus mech armies plus it is mobile and very effective in assault... That is how I like to roll. :P 0b :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2213224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kornomaniac Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I got a few questions ;) 1. " Moving the Crusader 12", disembark 3.49" (1.99" disembark to the back of the base + 1.5" termie base), and a 6" charge = 21.49" charge. " If you disembark shouldn't the bases be inside the 2" ? 2. " What our LRs lack in shooting compared to codex marines, they make up for in mobility ! " Hmmm... i don't understand :) What mobility bonus do we have compared to nilla SM landraiders? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2214212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Only a part of the base needs to be within the 2 inches, not the entire base when you disembark Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2214249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kornomaniac Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Nice ! Didn't know that =) That's indeed a bit more charge range then =) Thanx James ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2214266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Frost Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 The Article is informative and covers a few topics I notice even seasoned BA players fail to take into consideration. I also have to add from my own personal experience playing against a veteran Eldar player, that the Scouts are very useful in a lot of roles. I had a 5 man Scout Squad with 1 shotgun, 1 Bolter, 2 CCW, 2 BP, and the Sergeant had a PS and BP break an 8 man(woman lol) Banshee Squad with relative ease. It shocked the Eldar player and myself to be honest. lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2231059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khorneeq Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 I really enjoyed this article. Great job Morticon. I started collecting army in 3rd edition with plan of fielding really lot of scouts, but just after that the new codex entered. Usually in friendly games I'm using rules from Blood Angels Revised Codex, because I really like fielding scouts and it allows me to do it. I think that snipers are great against high toughnes models like Wraithlords, Demon Princes, etc. I have found quite early how great thing is small RAS in Rhino (and I always use extra Storm Bolter). The look of an opponent when You tell him that his unit fleed because of a 5 point tank is priceless :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2242148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Drop Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 I just read this now, it's really good but I'm guessing this is rather old as you mention HQ's 'controling DC' and Corbulo as an HQ choice!? It sucks how we can't control DC now though. By controlling them would this mean your opponent couldn't 'Benny Hill' them? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2751030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 I just read this now, it's really good but I'm guessing this is rather old as you mention HQ's 'controling DC' and Corbulo as an HQ choice!? It sucks how we can't control DC now though. By controlling them would this mean your opponent couldn't 'Benny Hill' them? This was written for the old PDF codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2751036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Drop Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 So does alot of this article still stand then? Well I know obviously the stuff about furioso's and baal's is the same but the stuff about the DC costs be included in our other troop choices and stuff, that isn't the case now is it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2751049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Most of the article is out of date now. In the PDF you got a "free" DC for buying certain squads, that no longer exists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2751052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Drop Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Bummer :D Has no one written a more up to date, similar article for B&C? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2751058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corby Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Most of the article is out of date now. In the PDF you got a "free" DC for buying certain squads, that no longer exists. Ah , the days of the good ol' Pdf codex. I miss the Dante + Corbulo smack down combo that was available then. @1Drop An up to date one has not been written as far as I'm aware. There are plenty of tacticas relating to specific units on the forum however. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2751229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted May 8, 2011 Author Share Posted May 8, 2011 Im takin notes gents!!! But I would consider it premature to espouse the "most effective" way to play BA after what I consider to be too short a time! There are definitely themes one could run with and aspects one could focus on- but that article was written after hundreds of games over 2 years or so - maybe longer. Definitely somethin to look into though ;) Also, for the record, there is very very little left from this original document that is similar to the new book, I feel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186237-ba-the-effective-way/page/2/#findComment-2751300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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