Dan The Deamon Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Back when 5th first came out a Nid player at my store was running two hormagaunt broods mingled within each other. When he got shot at he stated that there was another squad in front of the one i was trying to shoot at and they got a 4+ cover save. At the time I just skimmed the rulebook so i wasn't able to make any determination but it seemed legal. My question is in regards to running two raptor units within each other to provide cover. I understand it probably wouldn't be a good idea due to templates or blast weapons, but would both squads get cover from the buddies next to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 It's usually referred to as checkerboarding, there's a discussion topic on it : here Now as to how useful it is on Raptors, Raptos in 5th have been delegated to sub par Vehicle and MC hunters and as such (iirc) checkerboarding would only serve to hinder that as it would give your enemy a 4+ as well. I haven't tried it myself however as I usually run 1 Raptor pack. If you have enough Raptor models (or proxy models), or if anyone else has tried it please speak up, it'd be interesting to hear your experiences with this! PS. In 4th ed. I ran 3x10 Raptor packs. :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan The Deamon Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 wow i almost referred to it as setting up like a checkerboard. I haven't checked that thread out yet but i will here soon. What i was thinking was running two squads of 10-15. Giving them nurgle or khorne and splitting up at the last minute to hit different targets. 30 jump troops marines with T5 and 4+ cover saves skyrocketing across the board seems like fun. It's expensive as hell but with that many marines crashing into something it's gotta give way. I used to run a squad of 8 back in 3.5 with hit and run. If i ran anymore my opponents would pay too much attention to them. Every time i've tried running them in 5th i've met disappointment or failure. I'm just trying to think of something cool and different. I may try it here soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Its not worth it. Large squads like that aren't great, and the checkderboarding won't make them good. Better to have smaller squads hiding behind a rhino or something. A lot of people also consider it cheating/exploiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 I second what dreadnought said. Raptors in big squads aren't that good, checkerboarding won't make them better enough (certainly not enough to warrant taking two) and most people will get mad at you for checkerboarding anyway. Don't bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar Lodbrok Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Its not worth it. Large squads like that aren't great, and the checkderboarding won't make them good. Better to have smaller squads hiding behind a rhino or something. A lot of people also consider it cheating/exploiting. Pretty much sums up what I was going to say. In fact the way Raptors suck so badly has put me off starting a Night Lords force and thus I continue to serve Khorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Checkboarding can also be countered if you know from wich angle you should shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 I consider checkerboarding cheating. You can't say I cand shoot squad A, b/c squad B is in front BUT I also can't shoot squad B, b/c squad A is in front. I guess ork players could do the same huh ? 100+ orks with a 4+ invul, good luck with that. That's just twisting the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 I consider checkerboarding cheating. You can't say I cand shoot squad A, b/c squad B is in front BUT I also can't shoot squad B, b/c squad A is in front. I guess ork players could do the same huh ? 100+ orks with a 4+ invul, good luck with that.That's just twisting the rules. Unfortuntely the rule is worded to that provided over 50% of the unit is obscured (easy to do with 3 or more ranks), then both will get the save, which is in 'front' doesn't determine if the unit behind gets a save, merely if its >50% obscured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Unfortuntely the rule is worded to that provided over 50% of the unit is obscured (easy to do with 3 or more ranks), then both will get the save, which is in 'front' doesn't determine if the unit behind gets a save, merely if its >50% obscured. Well then you're running into RAW vs RAI, and I guess you could go round & round about that. But I'm quit sure that mixing squads together and them both getting a 4+ invul was never intended, when writing the RB. One guy can't give cover to another guy w/ out being hit by the bullit himself. I don't think I will have too worry about it though b/c no one in my group has even tried it and I don't think they will, I don't play in stores b/c of cheezball stuff like this (other reasons too), and should I decide to start doing tournies again, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be allowed there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Actually its perfectly acceptable to use this at tournaments... the thing to remember is the rule doesn't denote individual troops, but rather units... As for RAW vs RAI, RAW takes precident every time for the very simple reason RAI cannot be enforced in game because only the writers know the true intented purpose behind the rules, unfortunately our interpreted intentions are not sufficent, however reasonable they may seem. Checkerboarding is completly 100% legal... and before you ask, no I don't think its a friendly tactic, but I cannot and will not disallow people from using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan The Deamon Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 Well if it's that poorly looked upon i'll stay away from using it then. I don't like to win games using unfair tactics, however legal they may be. I'm just trying to find a good way to play some raptors while making them the main force in my list. The one thing I've noticed when playing raptors is that the best way to do it is run small squads with dual special weapons. After a little bit of fire the squad really isn't efficient at anything after turn 2 so i was looking at a good way of playing bigger squads to make the cost of icons a little better. I guess I'll try running a very large squad with Nurgle and just sticking 50% of them behind a rhino or in cover on the way up. Such a shame this new book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Checkerboarding is completly 100% legal... Hmmm, 2 units of dual plaz PM's with 4+ invul., what would be 1 tough unit. I wouldn't do it though, unless someone was using checkerboarding against me. . And yes Dan the best way to advance raptors is up behind a rino, but not 50% of them behind rino, all of them behind (or beside) rino so it blocks LoS and the raptors can't be shot at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Lord Dred Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 1) Im pretty sure there is an FAQ out there somewhere - may not even be from GW, but instead a major tournament event such as Adepticon that other venues use as a standard - that says only one unit may get cover. 2) Easy counter to this is to ask your opponent to follow the rules and move 1 unit at a time. Oh look, you cant move within 1" of another unit at any given time... I guess you cant move those two squads the entire game then. Raptors are jump infantry so this doesnt work on them, but raptors have a 3+ save and should be in cover anyways. 3) It's unsportsmanlike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Pretty much sums up what I was going to say. In fact the way Raptors suck so badly has put me off starting a Night Lords force and thus I continue to serve Khorne. I don't really see whats so bad about Raptors. They're basically CSMs that traded their Rhino for Jump Packs. Sure they're not scoring, but they can also take 2 specials at less then 10 guys. They might not be tier 1 units but I don't believe they're horrible or a liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Pretty much sums up what I was going to say. In fact the way Raptors suck so badly has put me off starting a Night Lords force and thus I continue to serve Khorne. I don't really see whats so bad about Raptors. They're basically CSMs that traded their Rhino for Jump Packs. Sure they're not scoring, but they can also take 2 specials at less then 10 guys. They might not be tier 1 units but I don't believe they're horrible or a liability. I think its that chaos marines are scoring, basically as cheap (with a rhino) and able to sit and shoot if needed. I still use Raptors every game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 do you ever take csm smaller then 10 man ? I dont think so . Are smaller then 8-10 man raptor units doing better then other anti tank/anti horde units we have ? again not really termicid is cheaper and harder to counter , csm and zerkers already do good against horde[and are scoring] . do we need them as bodyguards for our prime HQs ? again not really , both the sorc and lord are weaker choices and when they are used , its better to put them in LRs [what means they ride with csm/zerkers/pms] . They are a choice for fluff and even that they dont do real good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sword brethren Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 a friend who collects ork once did this checker board thing and i called off the game, the idea is for both players to have afair and fun game and if people are going to play with rules in a way to hinder the fun and get a cheap win i wont play them. it ended happily though as we decided not to do that, we re-set our selves and we called the new game as a draw :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Which is a good way to be, facing an opponent who is willing to play nice if good (provided you are too)... Its the problem of there being a number of rules that some people simply don't agree with... by RAW there is nothing we can do about them except as yu said, refuse to play... which is in itself not much fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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