Looking for some tips and help...

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

hey all,

 

I am a sometimes successful Wolf, have more wins than losses, but i am in need of advice from my fellow Sons of Russ. Most opponents i face i have little fear of, seeing them as little more than another fight for the All-Father and Russ to watch my deeds on pride.

But, as most of us do, I have a opponent I cannot defeat. The perverse daemons of Slaanesh are the only opponents of my LGS that regularly trounce me like red headed step child who just keyed your BMW.

 

The list i usually see consists of 2-3 Soul Grinders, 2-3 units of 20 Daemonettes, the Masque, a Keeper of Secrets and sometimes, rarely, a chariot. Now the Soul Grinders are nasty, but what is really killing me is the packs of Daemonettes. We agreed that Counter-Attack is negated by the defensive grenades, so i might be gyping myself there, but what tactics or tricks can be used to aid me in destroying this inhuman foe?

 

*i dont want to spamm Rune Priest either...that hardly seems fun or balanced*

 

Thanks Brothers,

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

But, as most of us do, I have a opponent I cannot defeat. The perverse daemons of Slaanesh are the only opponents of my LGS that regularly trounce me like red headed step child who just keyed your BMW.

 

We agreed that Counter-Attack is negated by the defensive grenades, so i might be gyping myself there, but what tactics or tricks can be used to aid me in destroying this inhuman foe?

 

I think you have it right, CA being negated by DG ~ it just happens to be bad for you.... ^_^

 

Just checking, Daemonettes are as per the back of the BBB. i6 a3 + rending?

 

What points do you play at?

 

Dreadnoughts and driving rhinos can run obstruction for your for your Power Armour.

 

Whirlwinds will do well against such large groups of Daemonettes.

 

Maybe an IC in Terminator armour and WG with SS attached to your squads for wound-allocation-shenanigans.

 

Can Daemons be pinned? WS with Sniper-rifles "might" slow them down.

 

Flamers.

 

Lone Wolfs. Not that they will do super-well but as a speed bump. They kill him but didn't get to charge your GH. Now they can volley and charge....

Wolf packs in 5s can do the same thing.

 

Take out the Armour using LS with MM.

 

Saturate to KoS with HB, AC and AC fire.

[bravelybravesirrobin]

No Fiends? Count yourself lucky, those things are insanely good.

 

Step 1 - Rhinos

 

Step 2 - reserve everything in your army except maybe long fangs or something else

 

Step 3 - if possible go second

 

Now the Daemon player is suddenly on the back foot. He has to deploy first turn without any knowledge of where you'll be and you get to plan and manouver to cut him down not the reverse.

 

Stay in your rhinos as much as possible, manouver and try and use shooting to drop the soul grinders and whittle down the big daemonette packs.

 

Rhinos protect you from his masque and if you can deal with soul grinders he has no shooting to drop them, that means he has to assault you.

 

Worse case scenario - he kills thew rhino and had enough movement to surround you, so you deploy on the wreck and charge him next turn.

 

Bext case scenario - he doesn't kill the rhino (needing 6's followed by 6's followed by 3 on D3 to penetrate means even with 20 daemonettes he will struggle to open them) you can get out next turn and charge his daemonettes.

 

Denying the daemonettes the charge will go a long way to helping you beat them. Fast assault units (skyclaws and thundercav) will also help in this respect.

 

Now with units as big as 20 strong you aren't going to break them with just one GH pack so you need to try and set-up multiple units that can charge into them (with rhino mobility and the big foot print of the daemonettes this shouldn't be too harsd but it will requie thought) or whittle them down considerably with shooting. As they have an invulnerable save just basic anti-infantry weapons do the job best - bolters, heavy bolters, whirlies, etc.

 

 

The key things are to reserve to take away his tactical advantage, stay in rhinos until the soul grinders are dealt with, charge him rather than letting him charge you and try and focus your force on one big squad at a time.

[Duke Corwin]

Defensive grenades have no effect on counter attack. No where does it say they do. They are only effective against units that assault and while CA gives you an extra attack like an assault it is not an assault.

 

Re-read the rules for defensive grenades - it does not mention it effects counter attack. Also if it effected counter attack it would have been put in a FAQ and no FAQ says it does.

 

I think if you start using counter attack the games will be a lot closer.

[rahl02]

Defensive grenades have no effect on counter attack. No where does it say they do. They are only effective against units that assault and while CA gives you an extra attack like an assault it is not an assault.

 

Re-read the rules for defensive grenades - it does not mention it effects counter attack. Also if it effected counter attack it would have been put in a FAQ and no FAQ says it does.

 

I think if you start using counter attack the games will be a lot closer.

 

 

The ONLY reason people started saying thtat defensive granades worked on counter attack was for our 3rd ed ruleset where bloodclaws were able to get +2 attacks on the counter charge. All counter attack is doing is giving you +1 attack for your "defenders reaction" move from being assaulted.

 

If he says otherwise tell him he's afraid to fight you on equal ground, that his only way of winning is to remove rules from the Wolves, and call him on it with his friends around. He'll have to shape up.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Defensive grenades have no effect on counter attack. No where does it say they do. They are only effective against units that assault and while CA gives you an extra attack like an assault it is not an assault.

 

Re-read the rules for defensive grenades - it does not mention it effects counter attack. Also if it effected counter attack it would have been put in a FAQ and no FAQ says it does.

 

I think if you start using counter attack the games will be a lot closer.

 

I am not advocating one way or another BUT....

 

BBB pg 74. Counter-attack reads "If the test is successful all models in the unit get the +1 bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn".

 

BBB pg 36. Defensive grenades reads "Models assaulting against units equipped with DG gain no Assault Bonus attacks."

 

Now we know that defensive grenades were not intended to be used by assaulting units, it is just silly. But as written using DG to counter CA seems legitimate.

 

"Defensive grenades have no effect on counter attack. No where does it say they do.~ That is correct that they do not mention CA, they do mention being assaulted, which is the description for CA. They are only effective against units that assault and while CA gives you an extra attack like an assault it is not an assault. It doesn't say that. It says "exactly as if they too had assaulted"

 

Under defensive grenades it does not mention they cannot be used by assaulters. It merely says "Models assaulting against units equipped with DG (which is exactly what the SW are doing) gain no Assault Bonus attacks (which is what CA gives)

 

Exact: not approximate in any way, precise.

 

*Just because it has not been FAQed doesn't mean it shouldn't be. That is not a logical conclusion. You may be completely right, but that argument doesn't hold water.

 

We know that DG are not intended for use by assaulters. But it never says that. It does say CA is exactly as if they to assaulted that turn.

 

*RAI I say no way to the Daemon player. It is silly to use DG when you assault. RAW his case is legitimate.

[Ullr Direfang]

Defensive grenades have no effect on counter attack. No where does it say they do. They are only effective against units that assault and while CA gives you an extra attack like an assault it is not an assault.

 

Re-read the rules for defensive grenades - it does not mention it effects counter attack. Also if it effected counter attack it would have been put in a FAQ and no FAQ says it does.

 

I think if you start using counter attack the games will be a lot closer.

 

in a way i have to agree with you but not by your logic 100%. i am RAI here, but defensive grenades shouldn't be able to be used if the unit with them are assaulting.... so that is why i feel that defensive grenades shouldn't be used allowed for counter attacking.

 

 

As far as the OP: shoot shoot shoot!!!! as long as you get the soul grinders down you should try to shot the rest down as much as possible.

 

 

EDIT: spelling

[Schertenleib]

I think the thing to remember is that the daemonettes are the Assaulting unit.

 

The SW are not assaulting they are using a rule that says "as if" they were assaulting. If SW's pass their leadership test they get a bonus "as if they were assaulting". It does not change them to the assaulting unit.

[foolishzero]

Models assaulting a unit equipped with Defensive Grenades gain no Assault Bonus. However, if the defending unit is already locked in combat or has gone to ground, the grenades have no effect. Counter Attack states that if you pass your leadership test you gain +1 Attack "as if" assaulting. There are a few ways to look at this but only one correct way which I've dealt with a couple of times at tournaments now. Because a unit is assaulting you, they have locked themselves into combat and are no longer able to use the defensive grenades (This was more clear in past editions where they stated Defensive Grenades could not be used while assaulting). Also, you are not the assaulting unit. No matter how you look at it, you did not assault you counter attack which is an "as if."

[rahl02]

People need to stop looking at CA portion of "as if" they were assaulting. It's giving a +1 attack bonus for your "Defenders Reaction" to being assaulted. EVERY unit in the game does a defenders reaction or counter attack if you will. But SW get a +1 bonus for doing so. Use that in an arguement and you'll see a differance.

[Ullr Direfang]

People need to stop looking at CA portion of "as if" they were assaulting. It's giving a +1 attack bonus for your "Defenders Reaction" to being assaulted. EVERY unit in the game does a defenders reaction or counter attack if you will. But SW get a +1 bonus for doing so. Use that in an arguement and you'll see a differance.

 

you sir are correct. unfortunately people tend to look just at small areas and forget to look at the rest of the rules. I admit i have done it some times, but there are other rules to consider.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

WLK, have you played them since the SW FAQ? ~ defensive grenades not working against counter attack?

[Frontline989]

Why not deal with the Soul Grinders by Drop Poding GH with Meltas?

[Progenitor]

Blast Templates are your friend. T3 with only a 5+ save means they will take lots of wounds from blasts, especially once they are all bunched up as they will be shortly after a Daemonic Assault. Whirlwinds can reap a great harvest against them. The same kind of things that work against Orks will work against Daemonettes believe it or not.