allies as hq?

[Byrne]

Can we take 2 hq from SW codex, and one from witch hunter and deamonhunter each, for a total of 4?

 

or 4 troops if that would be the case, 2 from each?

 

I can´t find anything against it, but i might have missed something.

[jmteeter]

You forgot leader of the Pack, your two Spacewolf lords only count as one HQ together so when you add your witch hunter and Daemonhunter HQs thats only 3. As far as I know its ok you just need to have one troop choice for each HQ.

[stinkenheim]

@ jmteeter i think you will find the wording of the rule is 'in a space wolves army, each HQ slot allows you to take up to two HQ choices. This means that in a standard mission a space wolves army may take one, two, three or even four HQ choices'

at no point does it specify that space wolf characters are 'half a hq' or that the extra HQ slots only apply to characters from the space wolf codex. the wording is just that space wolf armies contain more hqs.

 

@ the OP, if i remember from the DH/WH dex you are entitled to take 1 hq, 2 troops and 1 eliteand fast choice from the DH/WH codex as part of your army. i see no problem with using an I or grey knight as one of your 4 HQs.

the only limitation is that you may only have one ally in your army, so no WH and DH inquistiors in your force... the space wolves would be too busy hiding their fangs to fight properly.

[nurglespuss]

Just to clarify though:

 

Space wolves & Allies (the HQ section)

 

e.g. Wolf Lord & Battle leader = 1 filled HQ SW slot (not half a HQ place each, but both 'can' fill the same slot).

&

e.g. Inq OR Grey Knight Commander = 1 more filled slot (i.e. you have now reached full HQ compliment) - you couldn't take 2 WH/DH HQ selections to fill 1 Space Wolves HQ slot.

[stinkenheim]

where are you getting the wording that it is only space wolf characters that can be used to fill the additional HQ sl;ots? i would appreciate the quote because i can't see it. as i said in my post, it only says that in a space wolves army you can take an additional two hq choices. no where in that is it saying they are only avilable to space wolf characters. as an ally becomes part of your army you are able to include them as one of the 4 HQ slots you are normally allowed.

 

there is no 'half a HQ slot' with sapce wolves. we just gain double the normal allowance of HQs in any mission. so for instance a mission where the forc organisation chart only allows you 1 hq, we would ain 2. if the mission FOC allowed 3 or 4 HQs we would be able to take 6 or 8.

[old git]

The 4 HQ allowance is meant to represent heroes of the chapter leading their packs into battle to earn glory and honour before Russ and the Emperor, therefore it follows that the extra HQs should be Wolves. However, as already mentioned, nowhere is it specifically stated that they have to be Wolves.

 

Fluffwise - Wolves, ruleswise - anything goes (within the norm).

[Grey Mage]

Just to clarify though:

 

Space wolves & Allies (the HQ section)

 

e.g. Wolf Lord & Battle leader = 1 filled HQ SW slot (not half a HQ place each, but both 'can' fill the same slot).

&

e.g. Inq OR Grey Knight Commander = 1 more filled slot (i.e. you have now reached full HQ compliment) - you couldn't take 2 WH/DH HQ selections to fill 1 Space Wolves HQ slot.

Sorry, I dont get your logic.

 

Theres nowhere that says we treat allies any differently than our in-codex selections. An Inquisitor, Cannoness, or GK hero takes up 1/2 a slot, rounding up when the list is done- just like a WGBL, WP, etc.

 

Its more like:

WGBL- 1/2 an HQ slot

GKC- 1/2 an HQ slot

WP- 1/2 an HQ slot

 

So youve used 2 slots, but it would also be two slots if you:

WGBL- 1/2 an HQ slot

GKC- 1/2 an HQ slot

WP- 1/2 an HQ slot

WL- 1/2 an HQ slot

 

OR

 

WGBL- 1/2 an HQ slot

GKC- 1/2 an HQ slot

WP- 1/2 an HQ slot

Cannoness- 1/2 an HQ slot.

[nurglespuss]

There is no where that says you get '4' HQ slots. It only says you get to take 2 HQ choices per HQ slot, not 4 slots.

 

Are you guys seriously saying you think you can take 2 WH/DH HQ's in one slot? I would laugh my socks off if someone turned up with that army list!

 

The logic is quite simple.

 

The line that states: "This represents the CONSTANT presence of heroes..." is a big clue for anyone wanting to do this with allies. Its clearly intended for use with SW characters. I know the internet is an impersonal medium, but man am I glad I've never encountered this kind of daftness in the 'real world', oh, wait I did, with one guy who fielded a space wolves army under the previous codex.

 

I really don't understand this need to pick a codex apart like this.

[Sarapham]

There is no where that says you get '4' HQ slots. It only says you get to take 2 HQ choices per HQ slot, not 4 slots.

 

Are you guys seriously saying you think you can take 2 WH/DH HQ's in one slot? I would laugh my socks off if someone turned up with that army list!

 

The logic is quite simple.

 

The line that states: "This represents the CONSTANT presence of heroes..." is a big clue for anyone wanting to do this with allies. Its clearly intended for use with SW characters. I know the internet is an impersonal medium, but man am I glad I've never encountered this kind of daftness in the 'real world', oh, wait I did, with one guy who fielded a space wolves army under the previous codex.

 

I really don't understand this need to pick a codex apart like this.

 

 

 

Well thats the thing isnt it? 2 HQ per slot, not 2 "Space Wolf HQ Characters" per slot.

[CoinReturn]

...

The line that states: "This represents the CONSTANT presence of heroes..." is a big clue for anyone wanting to do this with allies. Its clearly intended for use with SW characters. I know the internet is an impersonal medium, but man am I glad I've never encountered this kind of daftness in the 'real world', oh, wait I did, with one guy who fielded a space wolves army under the previous codex.

...

 

Did you ever think that the all powerful =I= might want to keep a constant eye on a particular group of Wolves. Or that the Wolves would turn down a pair of winged female warriors spouting the hymns of the All-Father and cleansing fire? As a Sisters player I've seen what a Cannoness can do with a little Faith and would have no problems referring to her as "Heroic". Not saying I don't agree with you, I just don't agree with your reasoning.

 

When I play with allies I always say that I am playing "Army X" with "Allied Y". I don't think that the Space Wolves special rule would carry over to their allies. I've always thought they were there own force. That being said you can still manage three HQs: Two Wolves and an ally.

[Valerian]

It's not like taking 4 HQ would be the smartest thing to do usually anyway; that's a lot of points going to vulnerable 1-model heroes that aren't scoring. Additionally, you could probably build a much scarier character using our own choices than what you could get from allied HQ anyway (I know the DH codex well, but have never even glanced at a WH codex, so could be missing something).

 

If I were playing against Wolves and saw my opponent plop down a Wolf Lord, Grey Knight Grand Master, Rune Priest, and Wolf Priest, I think my reaction would be: "hey, cool, this is going to be a fun battle."

 

V

[the jeske]

The logic is quite simple.

 

The line that states: "This represents the CONSTANT presence of heroes..." is a big clue for anyone wanting to do this with allies. Its clearly intended for use with SW characters. I know the internet is an impersonal medium, but man am I glad I've never encountered this kind of daftness in the 'real world', oh, wait I did, with one guy who fielded a space wolves army under the previous codex.

yes it is simple , what your citing there is part of the fluff not the actuall rule . rules generally ingore what fluff says . there is no intended when GW says you should use rules RAW and the way they are in the dexs. techniclly SS and TH should work the same in all sm armies [fluff says they are] , psychic hoods BAs or INQ have should work like they do in DA or codex sm etc .But they dont . why? because the rules says so.

 

No where in the SW dex does it say that the 4HQ mean you have to pick them from the sw dex.

[Night Runner]

nurglespuss is absolutely right on this. The wording may not be very clear, but you can only take 2 HQ choices per slot w.r.t to Space Wolf IC, not allies. Taking 2 ally HQs per slot is not what the authors intended (my opinion, I do not know them nor have I ever communicated with them in any way) nor does it fit the spirit the rule was written in. I have written it out below.

 

In a Space Wolf army, each HQ 'slot' allows you to take up to two HQ choices. This means that in a standard mission a Space Wolf army may take one, two, three or even four HQ choices. This represents the constant presence of heroes detemined to burn their name into legend.

 

However, packs of Space Wolves work best when led by a single dominant personality, each hero respected for his own abilities. To represent this, no two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same psychic powers or wargear combination. Space Wolves are far too individual and proud for such unimaginitave tactics.

 

From the first paragraph, the rule opens up with and refers to 'a Space Wolf army', this does not exclude allies but sets the tone of the rule (ie its specifically for Space Wolves). The second sentence uses the word 'heroes', a reference throughout the codex for Space Wolf characters. Once again it does not exclude allies outright, but it sets the stage, so to speak, for the intention of the rule; that is the 2 HQ per slot is intended for SW ICs.

 

The second paragraph reinforces this line of thought. It once again refers to 'heroes' (or the HQs referred to in the rule) who 'cannot have the same saga, nor may they bear the same psychic powers or wargear combination'. What other hero or HQ can this be referring to, if not SW ICs.

 

I think anyone using two 2 ally ICs per HQ slot is simply stretching the rule beyond recognition and abusing of a rule that is clear when taken into context, but ambiguous when disected phrase by phrase.

[TiguriusX]

nurglespuss is absolutely right on this. The wording may not be very clear, but you can only take 2 HQ choices per slot w.r.t to Space Wolf IC, not allies. Taking 2 ally HQs per slot is not what the authors intended (my opinion, I do not know them nor have I ever communicated with them in any way) nor does it fit the spirit the rule was written in. I have written it out below.

 

In a Space Wolf army, each HQ 'slot' allows you to take up to two HQ choices. This means that in a standard mission a Space Wolf army may take one, two, three or even four HQ choices. This represents the constant presence of heroes detemined to burn their name into legend.

 

However, packs of Space Wolves work best when led by a single dominant personality, each hero respected for his own abilities. To represent this, no two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same psychic powers or wargear combination. Space Wolves are far too individual and proud for such unimaginitave tactics.

 

From the first paragraph, the rule opens up with and refers to 'a Space Wolf army', this does not exclude allies but sets the tone of the rule (ie its specifically for Space Wolves). The second sentence uses the word 'heroes', a reference throughout the codex for Space Wolf characters. Once again it does not exclude allies outright, but it sets the stage, so to speak, for the intention of the rule; that is the 2 HQ per slot is intended for SW ICs.

 

The second paragraph reinforces this line of thought. It once again refers to 'heroes' (or the HQs referred to in the rule) who 'cannot have the same saga, nor may they bear the same psychic powers or wargear combination'. What other hero or HQ can this be referring to, if not SW ICs.

 

I think anyone using two 2 ally ICs per HQ slot is simply stretching the rule beyond recognition and abusing of a rule that is clear when taken into context, but ambiguous when disected phrase by phrase.

 

NR is dead on.

 

The RAW may have a tiny crack of wiggle room but the RAI seems to be clear, especially considering the second paragraph. The HQ and heroes they are discussing refer to SW ICs. There are numerous places in our codex where they are trying to hammer home the concepts of glory/honor/independence being core to the SW Chapter. That is why more of the SW IC show up and also why we can't have identical gear etc.

[nurglespuss]

NightRunner, TiguriousX, Good lads,

 

Have a beer on me, and then another one (for the 2 beers you can take per beer slot in a space wolves army).

 

Cheers.

[stinkenheim]

so are you saying that a grey knight grand master can't be part of a space wolf legend? because i would beg to differ. ever read the story of the first war of armagedon where grimnar witnessed an entire company iof grey knights teleport into battle to face angron and his bloodthirsters... you know the one, where only a handful survive but they won the day and earned grimnars respect.... because i reckon when grimnar and the other wolves present that day think of legendary battles that probably comes under that category.

 

just because the paragraph uses the term heroes in no way means that it is space wolf only characters. i am fairly certain that there have been individuals who were not of the chapter that easily fit into that category. I don't see it as cheesey, or even a RAI vs RAW arguement. its simple. if the mission FOC says you can take X HQs the codex overides that and says you get 2X and you can use whatever HQ choices you wish

 

i have no objection to people who want to take an allied HQ and then 3 from the codex. in fact, if they have a back story attatched to it i wuld positively welcome it. anything to make the games more diverse and encourage people to come up with some background for their force.

 

btw, its worth remembering you may only have 1 ally in each army. so no grey knight and Canoness in the same force

[Night Runner]

so are you saying that a grey knight grand master can't be part of a space wolf legend? because i would beg to differ. ever read the story of the first war of armagedon where grimnar witnessed an entire company iof grey knights teleport into battle to face angron and his bloodthirsters... you know the one, where only a handful survive but they won the day and earned grimnars respect.... because i reckon when grimnar and the other wolves present that day think of legendary battles that probably comes under that category.

I never said anything of the sort. I was only mentioning 'heroes' in context with the rule I quoted, ie with respect to Space Wolf ICs. In no way was I diminishing the other heroes of the Imperium. All I was implying is that the other great and mighty heroes of the Imperium were not being referred to in the context of the rule.

 

just because the paragraph uses the term heroes in no way means that it is space wolf only characters. i am fairly certain that there have been individuals who were not of the chapter that easily fit into that category. I don't see it as cheesey, or even a RAI vs RAW arguement. its simple. if the mission FOC says you can take X HQs the codex overides that and says you get 2X and you can use whatever HQ choices you wish

Here we just have to agree that we disagree. I think the term 'heroes' is referring to Space Wolf ICs.

 

i have no objection to people who want to take an allied HQ and then 3 from the codex. in fact, if they have a back story attatched to it i wuld positively welcome it. anything to make the games more diverse and encourage people to come up with some background for their force.

I have no objection either if both parties agree. In fact it would be interesting as a battle or part of a campaign; especially if it is played around a good narrative .

[Grey Mage]

There is no where that says you get '4' HQ slots. It only says you get to take 2 HQ choices per HQ slot, not 4 slots.

 

Are you guys seriously saying you think you can take 2 WH/DH HQ's in one slot? I would laugh my socks off if someone turned up with that army list!

 

The logic is quite simple.

 

The line that states: "This represents the CONSTANT presence of heroes..." is a big clue for anyone wanting to do this with allies. Its clearly intended for use with SW characters. I know the internet is an impersonal medium, but man am I glad I've never encountered this kind of daftness in the 'real world', oh, wait I did, with one guy who fielded a space wolves army under the previous codex.

 

I really don't understand this need to pick a codex apart like this.

The logic is quite simple- an HQ, is an HQ, is an HQ.

 

There is no difference between DH/WH and SW HQs, save we can only have one of the former and we must have one of the latter.

 

If you want to be indignant, thats fine. I really dont care. But do understand that your offended sensibilities arent making the rules- GW is. And they included no differentiation between SW HQs and allied HQs anywhere. There isnt a specified selection of HQs like in say, C:Daemons either.

 

Because frankly my Valkyrie Cannoness IS a constant presence in my army, even if she isnt a higly effective choice- and youve no reason to deny me her use, or make her cost anymore dear than it already is.

[TiguriusX]

After closer inspection I think the codex does provide an express teaching that HQ leader of the pack only refers to SW HQs

 

The HQ is specifically identified as "HQ*"

 

Our codex then has a section called "HQ*"

 

So I would say unless your ally codex has an "HQ*" they don't get to use leader of the pack to squeeze 2 HQs into a single HQ slot

[rahl02]

After closer inspection I think the codex does provide an express teaching that HQ leader of the pack only refers to SW HQs

 

The HQ is specifically identified as "HQ*"

 

Our codex then has a section called "HQ*"

 

So I would say unless your ally codex has an "HQ*" they don't get to use leader of the pack to squeeze 2 HQs into a single HQ slot

 

He is correct there is an * next to our HQ entries, and that * is apparently signifying the leaders of the pack rule. Take that as you will I'm not advocating it either way, I'm just confirming the *.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

NightRunner, TiguriousX, Good lads,

 

Have a beer on me, and then another one (for the 2 beers you can take per beer slot in a space wolves army).

 

Cheers.

 

I agree with you three chaps. If a slot is used as SW then two SW HQs are chosen, if an ally is chosen the 1 Inquisitorial (for example) HQ is chosen.

 

So you can have 2 beers or 1 sherry for each of your 2 tickets. :devil:

 

 

After closer inspection I think the codex does provide an express teaching that HQ leader of the pack only refers to SW HQs

 

The HQ is specifically identified as "HQ*"

 

Our codex then has a section called "HQ*"

 

So I would say unless your ally codex has an "HQ*" they don't get to use leader of the pack to squeeze 2 HQs into a single HQ slot

 

This is probably a good argument for it.

As nurglespuss pointed out, it seems pretty clear the Codex is referring to SW characters.

 

The argument isn't whether it would be too over-powered and unfair or unfluffy, that SW would not love GK Captains or anything like that, and sure it could even be fun to play against and maybe mates would even enjoy playing against such champions.

 

The argument is that; paragraph 2 makes it clear the Codex is referring to SW characters.

After all, the final sentence does read "Space Wolves are far too individual and proud for such unimaginative tactics!"

[Grey Mage]

One could also infer from the asterisk that its pointing out the leader of the pack rule, and their nessecity of taking altnerate wargear. Thats how I took it in my first reading.

 

Really, unless your the author, or maybe the editor, theres no saying for sure about the asterisk though.

[stinkenheim]

i would agree with grey mage. the asterix is there to point out the leader of the pack rule which details how many HQ choices we get (twice the number allowed by the mission FOC) and to point out the need for characters to be equiped differently.

[TiguriusX]

One could also infer from the asterisk that its pointing out the leader of the pack rule, and their nessecity of taking altnerate wargear. Thats how I took it in my first reading.

 

Really, unless your the author, or maybe the editor, theres no saying for sure about the asterisk though.

 

Just to clarify...there are more than one instances of the asterisk. In addition to the FOC chart it can be found on

every single page for our HQs* (starting with Logan and going all the way to WGBL)

 

I don't have another army codex to compare and see if it is normal for HQ listings to have asterisks so this could be completely normal...I'm guessing it is not normal.

 

If HQ* is not standard in codex listings then I think a reasonable interpretation is that the special HQ rules are for SW HQ*s.

 

As leader of the pack is a 2-part rule (2HQ per slot...no cookie cutters) it seems odd to me that you would only apply the 2nd paragraph and interpret the first paragraph as a global rule.

 

And yes I agree there is a lot of interpretation being used here b/c I am strongly in the 2xHQ* for SW but 1xHQ for ally camp (I have already conceded there is wiggle room based on RAW)

:D

 

I am also enjoying this discussion!

[nurglespuss]

I also think the other point to reclarify is this:

 

There arent 4 HQ slots, there are still only 2 HQ slots, the FOC has not changed one iota. However, space wolves players are allowed to take 2 HQ choices, per HQ slot, they don't gain extra HQ slots, and so there are no extra slots for allied HQ to take up. For me its as simple as that. I like the '*' observation alot, as this also makes sense.

 

So to me (and the reasonable number of HQ's camp) the max no. of HQ's you could have, if allied, would be 2 Space Wolves HQ's and 1 allied HQ, together filling the 2 available HQ slots. I think any other interpretation really is pushing the boundaries of RAW. The best (if there is one) way to use RAW is think of it from an independent persons view, who knows nothing of 40k. Would they reach the conclusion that a 'special rule' for one army, would extend to encompass the rules for 'another army', even if allied? I don't think you can honestly answer yes to that!!