My first game in 12 years

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Ok, starting with arrival, I had to trim 500pts from my list to make it 1500 pts. Which left my list looking like this...

 

Termie Sorcerer Lord, MoT, Familiar, melta-combi, doombolt, Wind of Change, Bolt of Change.

3 Termies, 2 x Melta, 1 x flamer combis, 2 chainfists, powerfist, IoCG

Dread w/heavy bolter

10 CSMs with 2 flamers, IoK, champ with fist and plasma pistol, rhino

10 CSMs with 2 Plasma guns, IoCG, champ with fist and plasma pistol, rhino

8 Zerkers, 2 plasma pistols, champ with powerfist

Land raider with combi flamer pintle (zerker transport)

 

I dropped a dread with plasma cannon (due to crazy fear), 5 plague marines, a rhino and a pred.

 

I was fighting Guard and deferred the first turn and first set up (mistake 1). Then I watched an infiltrating unit with meltas line up 12 inches from my Land Raider... Poop.

 

Before I knew it, my land raider went pop, my zerkers jumped out and were cut down to 2. They turned and beat the crap out of the melta squad over the next two turns, with the champ surviving combat, an inferno cannon, a battle cannon (i think), sniper fire, a krak missile flying over his head only to die from a battling gun thingy on the turret of a Russ. (excuse my lack of terminology, I know less about IG than I do of Eldar)

 

After my opponents first turn, where I also lost my flamer squads rhino and 4 of them, I was on the defnsive and did not want to lose any other big lumps of points so stuck with my Sorcerer where he was, took my dread in to Combat with a tank and smoked it while the plasma squad smoked another.

 

Following that, my Sorcerer was lost to the stupidity of keeping him "safe". Where he did nothing and did not get in range for any psychic attacks. So by that point, my idiocy had lost over 500 points.

 

All that followed was a kicking to nothing with a rhino, a champ and a plasma gun on the table after 5 turns. The champ and his colleague decided that the cover had saved them so long and decided that the only way to end this was to either turn on eachother or bolt for it.

 

I felt that the Chaos arrogance had made them pay, although I was told that it was "human spirit" that won through... Very sickening. On several levels.

 

But it was the first time I have played chaos and used the 5th ed rules. The last time I played 40k, everything had movement stats... Much learned and much gained...

 

On to the next plot in 5 weeks to take my vengance on said Guard... Petty human scum...

[chillin]

Congrats on 1st game in 12 yrs, hope u had fun.

Not to be harsh, but to help u out in future games.

You're list is pretty bad and you made some tactical mistakes.

Sorc is bad a WAY too expensive. You have ALOT of wasted pts and useless stuff in this list. Including (but not limited to ) :

That termi sorc is one of worst HQ builds I've ever seen. Termi sorc that is not in a LR, familiar when he can already have 2 pwrs, 3 shooty pwrs (total waste) plus a combiweop, so 4 shooty things, way too expensive.

2 CF & a PF in a squad that is never going to strike in hth ?? Also 2 meltas not enough to be sure, 3 meltas. hvy flamer only if 4th termi.

TROOPS aren't too bad but plaz pistols are worst spec weop in game.

LR should have had D. poss, not a combi flamer.

.

What was you reasoning behing giving IG 1st turn ??

Sounds as if you had no game plan going in (not surprizing for 12 yrs out of game, but have one next time).

You really need to read "chaos lords handbook" and "asp champs handbook" in the GRAVIS section of this sub-forum.

[minigun762]

We'll give whatever help we can to knock down those little guardsmen next time. We can also fill you in on some of the units he had and ways to counter them.

 

The big things I'd focus on

1) list building

2) looking over tactics/deployment help

3) brushing up on your IG knowledge

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Infiltrate is more than 12" away, so no 1st turn 1/2 range melta shots.

[Kabbala]

In fact, Infiltrate can be 12" away if the unit is not within LOS of an enemy unit. 18" if within LOS.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Nope. More than 12. Pg. 75.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Thanks guys, for a long time now, I have been painting for the sake of painting, I see a cool new model, I get it, I paint it, it sits on a shelf. So I wanted to use some of my more favored models, the ones I enjoyed painting and converting, hence the use of the Termie Sorc Lord. I think he would have done much more had I actually moved him rather than keeping him safe when all the while he was staring at a cannon with a 72" range while we were playing on a 4' x 4' board.

 

My thoughts for IG going first was based on the last game I played, some millenia ago, everyone had movement characteristics. It never dawned on me that they are no longer on the stats lines and when I started and said "how far can he move?" and was told that standard movement is always 6" now I thought bad things and words. The basis for this was (as a former Ork general), allow them to get a little closer then smash them. How wrong I now look.

 

Yeah the Termie Sorcerer I now see was a bad move and a bad build, he shall be pulled apart and rehashed a little. Had I known more of the rules, I would have gone first definately, would have wiped out the infiltrators with my Zerkers on my first turn, taken out the hellhound and whatever other tank was stood by it with the plasma squad and the dread. I would also have used the plasma dread rather than HB. he had very little infantry and much more artilery than I was planning for.

 

Thanks for the advice on the links here, I have read them but it is tough to put them into context when you have not played for years. I shall be re-Reading these and then looking at what I have plus list building advice for next time... Yes there will be a next time, I thoroughly enjoyed it and was glad for the opportunity.

 

I have thought of going for a Khorne based list next time, going in hard, taking some risks etc along with some better melta-based squads to take out more of the tanks. Also, I have an olde worlds from the mid 90s jugger champion that I feel may not like tanks... Dunno if this is a good idea or if the general consensus is "stay away from Jugger; they bad", just looking at his tanks made me think, 165pts khorne champ on jugger may do more than 220pt Termie sorcerer; especially given the tactic I don't intend to use next time which was based on "play it safe". You can't really do that, especially with a khorne lord...

 

Going back to the melta squad that toasted my LR, would it matter that it was only a 4'x4' board we were playing on?

[Cale]

The problem with the Juggernaut is that it's no faster than a guy on foot, and it can't ride in a transport. Lords and Sorcerers aren't terribly resilient--they're toughness four, which means that a lot of stuff will just kill them outright. They pretty much require something to make them faster, so they can hug cover and get where they're going without dying. The two best mechanisms are

 

a: putting them in a transport (like the land raider)

b: giving them a bike

 

In this edition, though, both lords and sorcerers pale in comparison to Daemon Princes (which should always have wings).

 

 

If you don't want to switch to a DP, though, consider a Sorcerer on a bike, a Khorne lord with Lightning Claws in your land raider, or a cheaper terminator lord/sorcerer that deep strikes with your other terminators. Don't buy three powers; it's just too many points. Remember, too, to go ahead and use these characters aggressively. Sure, they'll probably die, but there's only one way they can really help you win: by killing things. If they lurk around the back and fail to kill stuff because you're trying too hard to keep them alive, they might as well have started the game dead.

[chillin]

... Yes there will be a next time, I thoroughly enjoyed it and was glad for the opportunity.

 

Also, I have an olde worlds from the mid 90s jugger champion that I feel may not like tanks... Dunno if this is a good idea

 

Going back to the melta squad that toasted my LR, would it matter that it was only a 4'x4' board we were playing on?

 

- Good, b/c it's a fun game win or lose.

- Jugger no good, too slow. Movement most important thing for HQ IMO. Wings really best way to go IMO, termiHQ needs a LR, even then they not as good as wings. If you wanted to use your termisorc you could use him in larger games in a LR as a 2nd HQ.

- Playing on larger board helps against outflankers b/c you can group vehicles toward middle. And as ICB said the infiltrators shouldn't have been able to set up 12" from your LR so that shouldn't have happened. Also had you not given opponent 1st turn, you could have wiped infiltrators ez, before they could do anything. So yeah, you should not have lose your LR. But that would not have saved this game.

*

re-read the links I suggested as you learn the rules better and play more, then things will fall into place more. There is really good stuff in there.

Put a list of all your models in army list forum, and we will suggest some good army list for you. :angry:

[minigun762]

One thing that most Chaos players already know but you might not be aware of is that we are a short range army. Overall, we are at our strongest when we're within 0-24" of the enemy. Yes we do have some decent shooting with Obliterators, Defilers and the like but what saves Chaos Marines most of the time is loads of troops mounted in Rhinos being rammed down the opponent's throat.

 

To that effect, consider the various parts of your army in light of "how does this help me get my killy units up close?". This is doubly true when playing IG because 1-2 Chaos Marines can wipe out multiple squads of troopers with easy.

 

The most common support units are:

Termicide Terminators with Combi-Melta to deepstrike in, fry an important tank or transport. This either reduces the amount of incoming fire or it exposes mechanized infantry to slow them down or kill them.

 

Obliterators/Defilers/Predators/Havocks all exist to do the same job for the most part and thats long range firepower. I'm not going to get into the "whats best" arguement here as there is much discussion with that but what is important is what they bring to the table. They allow you to kill faster movie tanks (like Eldar/Tau) that you might not be able to catch with Rhino squads, kill walkers and light transports or put wounds on MCs.

 

Other options are Chosen, which are similar to the Terminators but use Outflanking Rhinos instead of Deep Striking to get there, Chaos Raptors/Bikers which use their speed to get up close and kill tanks or hordes (but Chaos FA is kind of overpriced).

 

We are different then our Codex Marines because we can make a viable list only using our Troop choices. For Codex Marines, they need their Elite/Heavy/Fast to do the heavy lifting and their Troops act as the support. Chaos is the opposite, our lists should be built around our Troops and everything else is support.

 

Lastly, and this is very typical of many Chaos players, even vet ones. Don't load up on all the upgrades. Keep your army cheap whenever possible. Chaos Marines are already super flexible, and Cult Troopers are easily a match for the Elite options in other armies. This means that its usually more important to have quantity over quality because the quality of your army is built in. A few exceptions to this are: Your CSM should always have 2 specials and Power Fists are rarely a bad buy.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Wow, this is all pretty good stuff. Mainly cos I have tried to build with a lot of this in mind.

 

I do have most squads with 2 specials (meltas, flamers, plasma mainly), it is just a problem of not having much idea with what to put around it. It is odd trying to think of it almost as a hoard army, when I first started collecting Chaos, it was almost like collecting loyalists with character (damn Ultramar and his dullard codecies... Or not). But I have loads of half build/bought/painted squads for many things.

 

My army is mainly Black legion but with specialists from all of the other original traitor legions (HS is mostly from IW, FA is currently all NL) so as to keep a fluff feel with stuff but also to keep with being able to have different squads do different things, knowing who/what will be effective against what opponent over time.

 

Chillin - I shall post a full list of everything finished/on it's way on Tues as I have more time to do it. This wil allow me a month to try and pick more out of your advice as to what to finish should it be needed in time to drive the "human spirit" back into the dirt... We hope.

 

Thanks again folks, I have appreciated this help and have loved getting back into the gaminG side of the hobby.

[mes]

One quick point that has not been mentioned, and I feel is relevant given your long hiatus from the game: plasma is not a reliable way to pop tanks under the current rules. Given that, I think if you only run 2 squads of CSM's, at least one should have dual meltas.

 

As for the plasma pistols on the zerkers, I have a friend that takes them to try and pop transports with, but I very much doubt they're usefulness. On the champions they are a total waste of points at best, and at worst a death wish for your 55 point (70 with the pistol) champion on a bad gets hot roll. I'm convinced that they put all those plasma pistols on chaos sprues so that we have plastics to use as obliterator weapons instead of the fiddly weapons provided with the model.

 

Also, if you really want to run your sorcerer as is, pick different powers. You can only use one "shooting" power per turn, and of those available, wind is probably the most useful. For other powers, grab warptime to make the sorcerer a combat beast, and gift of chaos to eliminate threats to your terminators in close combat (power fists, enemy characters, etc.) Both of these are non shooting and cast at the start of your turn, so you could use warptime and save your second power for wind out of combat, or warptime and gift in combat. Alternatively, just leave the familiar on the model but don't pay points for the familiar or a second power. my sorcerers all have familiars made from old epic scale chaos warrior stuff, but I have never actually used them as familiars in game, they just look too cool not to model on.

 

Lastly, reading only helps so much. Play a few games and chances are you'll start to see where you need to tweak things. If your opponent was a nice guy, ask what the battle looked like from his point of view. Did your decisions make sense to him? Did he feel like you allowed him to act, or did you force him to react? What could you have done to win the game?

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Thanks Mes, wow some really postive feedback.

 

I did go over it with him and he felt that the land raider ove. The 2nd dread, PMs and pred seemed like a good move, it Just prooved ill fated as I deferred set up and failed to take the inititive for the first turn, combined with the fact that he has been playing against many MEQs recently he had the tankbusting infiltrators.

 

He did alsosay that my "play safe" tactic was the wrong one, whereby I needed to use all troops/vehicles/characters etc as if they will all be dead inside the first few turns, hence trying to "go for the throat" to get more for my points worth. Had I gone first, I would have (hopefully) got to the tank busters, sent squads with icons down either flank and allowed my Dread and Sorcerer to get into range to bust some tanks of my own in order to lessen his options and put an icon either side of the battlefield to assist in landing my Termies at better positions to cut some tanks apart.

 

However, looking at what is on the painting/operating table next to go, I have started to go to work on a squad of Alpha Legion renegades for use as Chosen in order to give them plenty of Meltas and go for the "tank busting" option myself. Either through infiltrating or flanking (get me with the terminology building by the day) to try to make a mess of something when it enters the game or such. Thoughts on this folks?

[minigun762]

He's quite correct about the "play safe" idea. Chaos is aggressive. Not stupid but definitely aggressive. Move in close, take some losses and then make them pay for it in the following turns.

 

As for Chosen with Melta, I've heard alot of good things about them. I'm not sure I'd rely on Infiltrating, it just doesn't seem that useful compared to Outflanking in a Rhino. The big question here is "are Melta Chosen better then Termicide?".

 

I think most people will say that Termicide is the better/safer/cheaper option because they aren't reliant on a transport and they are more durable.

[chillin]

allowed my Sorcerer to get into range to bust some tanks of my own in order to lessen his options and put an icon either side of the battlefield to assist in landing my Termies at better positions to cut some tanks apart.

 

Thoughts on this folks?

 

That termi sorc is not going to get into range w/ out being in your LR.

You will rarely (if ever) get troops close enough to tanks in time to help termi's come in, b/c termi's come down on turn 2, 50% of the time and by turn 3, 66% of the time. It's hard to get rino's in your opponents backfield that fast. Just use regular DS for termicide, they get close enough most of the time.

Definately can't use "play safe" tactic with chaos, got to get in there. That being said you can't just rush out into the middle of the table and hope for best either (esp against IG). Hide rinos best you can incase you not get 1st turn, run rinos behind LR, use terrain for cover and to block LoS (even if that not most direct route to where you want to go), leapfrog (rino A pulls infront of rino B & pops smk, next turn rino B pulls infront of rino A and pops smk).

And like I said b4, keep referring back to CL Handbook & AC Handbook.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Cheers guys, I have posted my complete list of models on the Army list board

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=186782

 

for your advice on my next list... please be kind, a lot of what I have is either based on 10+ year old rules or is stuff I am purely painting for fun that could or could not be useful at some point.