Aquila's?

[Grim Dog Studios]

Although Aquila's were mainly only used by the Emperor's Children, some captains from other chapters display them on their armour too according to the HH novels, why is this and could i do it for my wolf guard battle leader?

I ask this because the red scorpion upgrade pack contains an mk 3 chest with an aquila on and i dont want it to go to waste.

[Ufthak]

Hey Wulox!

 

Hm, as far as I know there's no "Iron" MkIII armour in the Red Scorpion Set, only "Imperial Maximus" MkIVs.

 

As to the Aquila: I think it's ok if certain high-ranking marines have the Aquila. The Emperor's Children were the only Legion were ALL the marines were allowed to bear it, but I guess singular marines from other Legions were also given the honour. Additionally, my guess is that toward the end of the Heresy the rule generally didn't apply any more - the "Aquila" MkVII suit has, as the name states, an Aquila on it, and it was introduced in the last days of the Heresy. Also, it makes little sense to continue having the rule when the only Legion authorized to have the Aquila has betrayed you.

 

So, if I were you, I'd go ahead, as long as it's just one or two models.

[Hyperion]

The veteran sergeant torso appears to me to be a mix of Mk2 with a Mk1 chestplate added. It's definitely not a Mk4. It would certainly be ok to use the odd Aquila chestplate in any loyalist heresy army, but not too many.

 

The Mk7 Eagle armour mostly has the Imperialis (skull-headed eagle or winged skull) rather than the Aquila (double-headed eagle).

[The Emperor's Champion]

Yea, that's how I've always read it. The Aquila was an honor and only the Emperor's Children as a whole could wear it. Everyone else could still earn it individually.

[Ufthak]

Hm, to me, Sergeant Haas's breastplate looks totally like a MkIV Imperial Maximus one, only with the cables taken away and the Aquila added.

[Hyperion]

Actually I've looked at it again and it looks more like a pure Mk1. The cables on the sides make it different from the Mk4.

[Grim Dog Studios]

Now that i look at it, it looks like a hybrid of mk 3 and mk 1.

[TheDarker]

Although is interesting the idea, its an MK IV because

a) All the Red Scorpions wear Mk IV (at least the units released)

:o When you want an Mk IV torso to be different, considering they have those cables, the only solution is make a variation whith the cables in other position.

c) GW does´nt (generally) mix bits of armours in his miniatures. So if the Helmet is maximus, the armor is maximus

d) Cassius has a similar armour, and cassius wears Maximus.

 

About the HH novels... yeah, i agree that some worthy terrans (like Garro) would have an Aquila on his armour, but not so often.

[Pacific81]

I believe it was mentioned somewhere that only marines individually honoured in person by the Emperor were given the Aquilla? With the obvious exception of the Emperor's Children, I think it would be a great way of adding the odd 'hero' into your pre-heresy force!

[Mal]

I think the rules became more lenient after the Heresy allowing a lot more troops from other chapters to wear the Aquila... espically since every loyal human likely owns one... seems a bit daft to deny the protectors of the imperium the right to wear the holy badge of the man they protect....

[Hyperion]

@The Darker - sorry but I disagree. Firstly, the positioning of the cables is a defining characteristic of each type of armour, so the fact that the veteran torso has the cables in the exact same position as a Mk1 means it's a Mk1. (@BC Wulox - the Mk3 chestplate looks like it has an indent at the bottom and rivets up the sides, so I still reckon it's closer to a Mk1, just missing the large belt buckle). Secondly, GW often mixes armour types on the same model - look at the different marks scattered throughout the sternguard veterans. Lastly, the veteran shoulder pads are Mk2/3 (compared to C:SM) not Mk4, which are different to the rest of the squad.

[Ufthak]

Youre right about the shoulder pads. But still, it just doesn't really make any sense, him wearing a MkI. The MkI is cumbersome and weak compared to the MkIV, plus it's not fully enclosed and therefore would be very difficult to combine with bits of other armour. Why would a veteran sergeant be wearing a MkI, in the 41st Millenium at any rate!?!?!

[Grim Dog Studios]

Now im looking at it, it does look closer to mk 1.

He could be wearing mk 1 as it could be upgraded somehow, or artificer?

[TheDarker]

Ilmarinen, yes and no. I agree that it´s similar to the MKI, but wen ALL the Red Scorpions Unit has Maximus, the Sergeant having an old (i mean, REALLY old) torso BUT the helmet of a Maximus is... strange. Also, i consider that the armours can have some... "variation" in special models and similars. Several special characters has armours that can barely be put on any kind (Sicarius in example, who has Crusade legs but a torso who fits.... well, it doesn´t fit anywere). I just think that they wanted something differnent with the sergeant so they made a different Maximus, some "artesanal"/special variation. It helps this idea that the vanguard veterans of the Red Scorpions wear maximus but his torsos are similar to the one of the Sergeant Hass (they must be, because with the arnes of the jump pack they could not use it with a typical Maximus). But that´s my opinión, of course.:tu:

 

Also, examples of the Sternguard? (and, before you say, helmets are the only exception when GW do marines, no matter the model of his armour the helmet can vary a lot... but it´s not the case of the Red Scorpions because... well, all wear MKIV helmets :tu: )

[Hyperion]

There is a rather glaring discrepancy in the way that armour is described from the point of view of the development process compared to the usage. If the older armour marks were that much worse than the later marks then it just wouldn't be practical to use them at all, regardless of how much of a revered relic they were.

 

I have several thoughts about how to explain this away:

1. when the armour was being produced there were standard suits and then there were special suits (made especially for leaders etc). As a result, the artificer suits would be far better than the standard suits, even of later marks, and therefore be worth retaining;

2. over hundreds of battles some suits would be found to be better than others (the same is true for any manufacturing process - some cars run better than others by random chance) or luckier;

3. some artificer suits would have additional capabilities that would be very rare (such as the (?) Night Lord helmet with terrorsight);

4. some marines would be reluctant to part with the power armour they were originally issued with, having fought in it over hundreds of battles and learned its every detail and eccentricity (and tailored their fighting style to match), therefore keeping as much of the armour as possible and only replacing bits when absolutely necessary;

5. techmarines would probably be able to partially update older suits of components with more modern technology, so although a suit might look much older its capabilities would be far more advanced;

6. as armour was developed presumably changes were prototyped before being put into full development, again creating better versions of a particular mark that may be worth keeping.

 

Bear in mind that these explanations are mainly for 30K rather than 40K, although some would still apply. For example Helbrecht is wearing a suit of Mk2 (look at the backpack and legs) which is undoubtedly either heavily artificed or updated, otherwise it would be rubbish compared to a Mk7.

 

PS. There is a sternguard vet with Mk5 leg armour and a Mk6 helmet, another has Mk6 leg armour and a Mk7 chestplate, and some have studded Mk7 shoulder pads (which are depicted in Collected Visions as Mk4 shoulder pads, which is why my Mk4 marines have this style of studded pads).

[Ufthak]

I guess Ilmarinen is right, at least mostly. But I must say i still have my problems seeing the sergeant's plate as MkI. That would be the same as if you gave a modern German Bunderwehr soldier a leather Pickelhaube (spiked helmet used until 1916) instead of the Kevlar helm. And even if you gave him an "updated" Kevlar Pickelhaube, it still wouldn't make the slightest bit of sense.

 

But seriously, this discussion is rather pointless. As far as Brother Champion Wulox is concerned, I think he can go ahead with the Aquila-ed torso, as long as only the sergeant has it.

[Grim Dog Studios]

It wont be for a sergeant, for my wolf lord, and thanks for the input guys.

[Hyperion]

Pointless and a little off topic ...but interesting! :D

 

I agree with you Ufthak about the use of a Mk1 torso being totally against the fluff, as described in the B&C Librarium article. It makes me wonder whether the sculptor just threw it in there for interest, without fully considering the background. On the other hand, it might just mean that the Mk1 torso (as opposed to the other parts of the suit) was particularly well designed and easily incorporated with later armour marks?!

 

The reason I'm so interested is that I'm planning to use several of these torsos in pre-heresy conversions, so I'm trying to justify it to myself! :P

[Ufthak]

I'd just use it, somehow you can always justify it. Example:

 

"Once upon a time a Space Marine veteran sergeant fought his way through a large, ancient-looking high school complex. An enemy bolter round hit him in the chest, destroying his beautifully painted MkIV chest plate which he'd pilfered off the Captain two days back. In a rage the sergeant destroys all the enemies in vengeance. After he's done with them, he looks down at himself and says: "Dang it, where do I get a replacement from?" Looking around, he finds an ancient-looking locker enscribed with: "John Doe, Quarterback." Looking inside, he finds a full suit of MkI power armour, along with a strange egg-shaped object. Discarding the object and most of the suit, he tries on the chest-plate, and it fits perfectly. Happily, he returns back to his squad, and resumes killing traitors."

 

Or something like that ^_^ (Let's face it, MkI Thunder armour could easily pass as the American Football armour of the 30th Millenium)

 

 

 

In any case, use it; you really don't need to know whether it's MkIV or MkI, the marine himself probably wouldn't know either.