Blood Claws or Grey Hunters

[Brethren Gabriel]

I have seen that most of you prefers GH to BC for the troop section . Why ?

I think that at least one squad can be fielded . Ten men are 40 attacks on charge and WS 3 means that you are easier being hit ,while you strike almost everything at 4+ . They are maybe better than BT initiates so why don't you use them ?

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Cuz Grey Hunters are so good! Blood Claws are still usable tho. And I think eventually people will field them when their love for GH's declines from this climax. But really, it is whatever fits your own style of play. GH are just more balanced as a medium ranged unit. Blood Claws are most effective on attack.

[Aeddon]

Actually the two squads are extremely close for the point cost. Given a full squad of Bloodclaws versus ten Initiates and five Neophytes with one Initiate armed with a powerfist (giving both units the same point cost) they come within .07 (favoring the Bloodclaws) average kills of each other when adding both shooting and close combat, depending of course on who gets the assault. Not bad for a group of new inductees into Space Wolves eh?

[Karack Blackstone]

I tend to take both, trying to support a charge from BC's with GH's nearby. doesn't always work out that way, but it can be deadly when done right.

[Night Runner]

I run with GH mostly, but I do have a full pack of BC (that's 15 models) with a WG leader and a Wolf Priest; and they are capable of taking out nearly any type of unit. The GH are better all rounders IMO and better at holding objectives and close rang firefights, but BC are better at clearing objectives if used in sufficient numbers (otherwise GH are still preferred). Personally I prefer Swiftclaws because I like bikes so much. I think the problem with them is the price and the fact they are armed just like GH. Maybe if they were slightly cheaper and were armed differently they would be chosen more often. Personally I think they're fun to use.

[Aurick]

I run with GH mostly, but I do have a full pack of BC (that's 15 models) with a WG leader and a Wolf Priest; and they are capable of taking out nearly any type of unit. The GH are better all rounders IMO and better at holding objectives and close rang firefights, but BC are better at clearing objectives if used in sufficient numbers (otherwise GH are still preferred). Personally I prefer Swiftclaws because I like bikes so much. I think the problem with them is the price and the fact they are armed just like GH. Maybe if they were slightly cheaper and were armed differently they would be chosen more often. Personally I think they're fun to use.

 

What do you equipt your 15BC + WP + WG pack?

 

I find it tempting to give the WG Terminator armor and a Chain Fist, but I'm not so sure about the rest.

[Night Runner]

I run with GH mostly, but I do have a full pack of BC (that's 15 models) with a WG leader and a Wolf Priest; and they are capable of taking out nearly any type of unit. The GH are better all rounders IMO and better at holding objectives and close rang firefights, but BC are better at clearing objectives if used in sufficient numbers (otherwise GH are still preferred). Personally I prefer Swiftclaws because I like bikes so much. I think the problem with them is the price and the fact they are armed just like GH. Maybe if they were slightly cheaper and were armed differently they would be chosen more often. Personally I think they're fun to use.

 

What do you equipt your 15BC + WP + WG pack?

 

I find it tempting to give the WG Terminator armor and a Chain Fist, but I'm not so sure about the rest.

Personally, I go for a melta and flamer, since I use them mostly for assaulting. I also run with a powerfist, because I think it fits the BC better than power swords or axes (just my opinion). I always have them footslogging and capturing the closest objective, clearing it and if possible moving on to the next (but things rarely go as planned when I play). With respect to WG it just depends on who I'm playing against. I've used them both in termie and PA armours to go effect.

[Hotspur]

I use a mix of BCs and GHs, and I think, like most others here, that they both have their uses. The BCs are just brutal on assault. I run two maxed out squads of BCs, so one squad on the charge gets 60 attacks if they all make it across the board. Granted, they won't all make it and they won't all hit, but that is still a ton of attacks to defend.

 

My BC packs have a WG w/ PW, PP, and MB. The squads themselves are equipped with 2 flamers and a PW. This setup has seemed to workout pretty well; however, I started the squads with two PGs and dropped them b/c the BCs just don't shoot well enough. The flamers work out much better for the young'uns.

 

I still run them with the PGs occasionally, and sometimes they do very well with them; it all depends on the enemy I'm facing, which is usually 'nids b/c my brother-in-law is an avid bugs player.

 

But I digress... BCs and GHs are both useful. My recommendation is to find a little room for both in your list.

[ralkass]

In my opinion a BC pack becomes effectively useful if full.

I made some simulations and I saw that 40 attacks WS 3, S 4 versus a 3+ Armour Save make casualties just like 30 attacks WS 4, S 4 versus same target, with the difference that WS 3 in melee gets more casualties when attacked.

I think that Flamers are the best choice, because BC-brothers are not so skilled in ranged attacks and they are used mainly for melee.

 

I don't know if they could get advantage from the presence of a WG in Terminator armour, I have to try :(

[lunchb0x]

Blood Claws with a Wolf Priest + X transport = WIN

 

I had 3 blood claws and a Wolf Priest, take down 2 squads of fire warriors, the rail gun suit guys, a hammer head, and the HQ...and that was with only 3 blood claws living after the drop pod and first bit of hth with the rail-suits.

 

I dont really care what any one says, blood claws are great against infantry and ONLY infantry.

[Grey Mage]

Ive already prefered the flexability of Grey Hunters to the Forceful blow of Bloodclaws. Even in the days of True Grit- already better than a tactical marine for slightly more points they were amazing in CC, bloodclaws tended to be overkill.

 

Nowadays Grey Hunters are better in sheer number of attacks and cheaper, but lacking that second CCW Id grown to love. If the BCs were to have that advantage over the GHs I would field them more, but as it is... one squad in anything under 2000pts. I have many veterans, new meat should age well, not be thrown into the pot all willy nilly.

[Vash113]

I find Blood Claws are very situational and best used in very large numbers. My Grey Hunters are far more versatile and effective on offense and on defense, where as my Blood Claws really have to get that Charge. Right now I run 6 units of Grey Hunters and 2 units of Blood Claws. My Blood Claws are run like this:

 

Blood Claws (15)

-Power Weapon, Flamer x2

Wolf Guard Pack Leader

-Power Fist

 

For a squad of 16 Marines total, 2 special cc weapons and 2 flamers. Makes for an amazing unit on the offense, a bunch of bolt pistol shots and the 2 flamers combined with a gross number of attacks on the charge makes the Blood Claws fierce at bringing the fight to the enemy. I mount my squads in Land Raider Crusaders so they have a transport that can actually carry the full squad. The Wolf Guard is there to add some nice power fist attacks and a boost in leadership.

 

However the Blood Claws are really not that good on the defense, if they get charged by a cc unit they're screwed. So in most games I rely on the rough and ready Grey Hunters to do the heavy lifting. I have 4 squads of 10 Grey Hunters each with 2 special weapons, Melta Guns and Plasma Guns. Then I also have 2 cc units with 9 Grey Hunters and a Wolf Guard armed with Power Fists and the squads cary a single Melta Gun each. So I can pack my basic troops to either hit harder in cc, do well against armor or against light armor and heavy infantry. Either way they are very versatile and effective both on the charge, and when receiving a charge.

 

When building a take all comers list the Grey Hunters are obviously the more versatile and practical choice. Blood Claws are, as they are meant to be, shock troops. That's pretty much their sole occupation, where as Grey Hunters are the back bone of the Space Wolves... again as they should be.

[Dark Bjoern]

I field most the time a mix of both. With most missions around capturing objects, three troop choises had become mandantory.

 

GH are without question the backbone off every GC. That´s why so many off us are using them. I field 2x 10 in Rhinos. They can take out enemy units of equal size with easy. to be honest our GH are as good as elite choises in other armies. Not to use this advantage would be more then unwise.

 

My third pack is a 15-men BC pack lead by a WP sticked in a LRC. They keep the enemy away from my mission objects and the enemy busy. The Problem is that you need someone to keep them to the heel, WG or ICs. More then one unit makes their use an (pointwise) expensive fun.

[Evilbob]

I usually run both, but I find myself with more BCs than GHs. For most take and hold stuff, its 2 small squads of GHs in razorbacks and a big squad of BCs. The BCs clear objectives, the GH provide cover fire and then hold the objectives. Its been my experience that a 6 man squad of GHs defending some good cover can more than hold their own vs 10 man squads of other armies. Especially with a razorback covering them, as they cover the BCs.

[dragonknight4275]

I have seen that most of you prefers GH to BC for the troop section . Why ?

I think that at least one squad can be fielded . Ten men are 40 attacks on charge and WS 3 means that you are easier being hit ,while you strike almost everything at 4+ . They are maybe better than BT initiates so why don't you use them ?

Cool, I happen to play both Black Templars and Space Wolves.........

 

Regarding the Blood Claws vs Grey Hunters thing, yes, I very much agree that Blood Claws should not be ignored because a BS/WS of 3. Although the 10 Grey Hunters still have the 30 attacks at WS4, you'll be hitting on 4+ unless your opponents are WS7+ and it's not like the Grey Hunters won't have to hit on 4+'s either. Another squad with a heap of attacks like that is invaluable, even at WS3. However, I strongly do not believe that Blood Claws are better than Black Templar Initiates. Initiates are the main warriors of the entire Black Templars Chapter (like Grey Hunters for Space Wolves) and they also have the option of all CC weapons/bolt pistols in the squad. If Blood Claws and Initiates were to meet in combat, the Initiates would hit on 3+'s, possibly re-rolling failed hits if the correct Vow is in use, while the Blood Claws would hit on 4+'s with no re-rolls for failed hits. The chances of the Initiates hitting are much higher than the Blood Claws which = higher chance of wounding. Also, if the Blood Claws were to lose combat (which would probably happen), their Ld is 8, and if the Initates were to lose, they are Fearless and would probably make the 3+ saves required. The Initiates would also have the advantage in a firefight, as Initiates BS is 4 and Blood Claws BS is 3. Again, probaby more hits = possibly more wounds. But still, even if you're going up against Black Templars, take a pack of Blood Claws. They will prove extremely valuable as several roles: suicide strikers, objective holders, possibly horde slayers, and perhaps a human wall. Don't be influenced by the Grey Hunters' better stat line, take 'em and have fun! That's the most important thing.

 

~For the Dornian Allfather!

 

PS: See what I did in the signature? Dorn? Allfather? You know?

[Vash113]

Initiates are the main warriors of the entire Black Templars Chapter (like Grey Hunters for Space Wolves) and they also have the option of all CC weapons/bolt pistols in the squad. If Blood Claws and Initiates were to meet in combat, the Initiates would hit on 3+'s, possibly re-rolling failed hits if the correct Vow is in use, while the Blood Claws would hit on 4+'s with no re-rolls for failed hits. The chances of the Initiates hitting are much higher than the Blood Claws which = higher chance of wounding. Also, if the Blood Claws were to lose combat (which would probably happen), their Ld is 8, and if the Initates were to lose, they are Fearless and would probably make the 3+ saves required. The Initiates would also have the advantage in a firefight, as Initiates BS is 4 and Blood Claws BS is 3. Again, probaby more hits = possibly more wounds. But still, even if you're going up against Black Templars, take a pack of Blood Claws.

 

That's not considering the larger numbers in a Blood Claw squad while if you max out half of the Templar squad is in fact Neophytes, the Blood Claws get more attacks and are usually led by a Wolf Priest and/or Wolf Guard Pack leader giving them a LD of 9 or 10. Plus with Counter-Charge the Blood Claws will be able to perform fairly well even when they are charged rather than charging and with the Wolf Priest will generally have Preferred Enemy as well. Also don't forget the Blood Claws along with a Wolf Guard leader can take more Power Weapons/Fists and get more attacks with them.

 

I'm not saying one is necessarily better than the other, but the Claws are no slouches and are not IMO any worse than Crusader Squads, especially in close combat.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

I have seen that most of you prefers GH to BC for the troop section . Why ?

I think that at least one squad can be fielded . Ten men are 40 attacks on charge and WS 3 means that you are easier being hit ,while you strike almost everything at 4+ . They are maybe better than BT initiates so why don't you use them ?

Cool, I happen to play both Black Templars and Space Wolves.........

 

Regarding the Blood Claws vs Grey Hunters thing, yes, I very much agree that Blood Claws should not be ignored because a BS/WS of 3. Although the 10 Grey Hunters still have the 30 attacks at WS4, you'll be hitting on 4+ unless your opponents are WS7+ and it's not like the Grey Hunters won't have to hit on 4+'s either. Another squad with a heap of attacks like that is invaluable, even at WS3. However, I strongly do not believe that Blood Claws are better than Black Templar Initiates. Initiates are the main warriors of the entire Black Templars Chapter (like Grey Hunters for Space Wolves) and they also have the option of all CC weapons/bolt pistols in the squad. If Blood Claws and Initiates were to meet in combat, the Initiates would hit on 3+'s, possibly re-rolling failed hits if the correct Vow is in use, while the Blood Claws would hit on 4+'s with no re-rolls for failed hits. The chances of the Initiates hitting are much higher than the Blood Claws which = higher chance of wounding. Also, if the Blood Claws were to lose combat (which would probably happen), their Ld is 8, and if the Initates were to lose, they are Fearless and would probably make the 3+ saves required. The Initiates would also have the advantage in a firefight, as Initiates BS is 4 and Blood Claws BS is 3. Again, probaby more hits = possibly more wounds. But still, even if you're going up against Black Templars, take a pack of Blood Claws. They will prove extremely valuable as several roles: suicide strikers, objective holders, possibly horde slayers, and perhaps a human wall. Don't be influenced by the Grey Hunters' better stat line, take 'em and have fun! That's the most important thing.

 

~For the Dornian Allfather!

 

PS: See what I did in the signature? Dorn? Allfather? You know?

Its odd...I don't use Blood Claws,even though I love the idea behind them,because I tend to have a more shooty army then most Wolves. I think it is in part to do with the Military training I had in the Infantry,or perhaps the words of my best friend and eventual squad leader. "As long as I have bullets,there isn't going to be any damn HTH" *shrugs* But to me,limiting the chances that your opponent has a chance to attack you is the best all around option. So I will still assault the mostly shooty stuff, but my preference is to mow them down in a hail of bullets before they reach me. Also,I am still short on infantry models as it is..I can field two 10 man GH packs at the moment,so that is what I stick with. Wife has decided I have spent enough money on the hobby at the moment so I am stuck waiting for more lol.

[Valerian]

I believe this is a matter of playstyle. If your are running either a Footslogging force, or have a Land Raider Crusader that allows you to transport a full Blood Claws Pack, then they make an excellent assault force, and can take advantage of their superior unit size to fully realize their potential. If, however, you are playing with the smaller "standard" transports (Drop Pods, Rhinos, Razorbacks, Land Raider Phobos), then the +/- 10 model sized Blood Claws unit doesn't offer you any advantages over Grey Hunters. Grey Hunters are just as good as assaulting at this point, and much better at securing/controlling an objective.

 

Valerian

[Freman Bloodglaive]

A big unit of Blood Claws, made fearless by an attached Wolf Priest, and supported with stormcaller by a nearby Rune Priest, is a very good unit to run across the battlefield and screen advancing Grey Hunters.

[Shadow Wulfen]

What do people think about fielding Lukas the Trickster in their Blood Claw pack?

 

I would be all for the idea but I can't seem to find a suitable points value to field him in.

[chaplain belisarius]

grey hunters-they are awesome!

[Stormbrow II]

Grey Hunters are more flexible and part of this is the extra WS and BS they get. Combined with the BC penalty (Headstrong) and the fact that the Claws need to use up another Force Org chart slot or points to babysit them gives them subtle but important differences.

 

The GH are more reliable. They can better perform at Tank-hunting (BS 4 with 2 Meltas) and they last longer when it comes to an assault. The BC extra attacks might mean that they might kill slightly more than the GH but when the enemy strikes back they typically hit on 3's. That makes a big difference. This assumes there are no Wolf Guard or other HQ involved and the squads are roughly the same points.

 

If the GH are to be used defensively they can be given Plasma and sit on home objectives. They are also harder to break on the charge if they hop out of a transport and decide to shoot at their target and force it to attack them. The BC can't be trusted to sit on an objective as they can't simply sit and rapid fire into the enemy - they must charge if they are within 6" which a good player will use to pull them off an objective with something that will tarpit them (Dreads are a prime example).

 

Things change when either unit is joined by an IC or WG but a solitary WG is usually enough to seriously boost a GH unit (3 Power Fist attacks on charge/when charged) and gives the second Melta if you need to bag a transport before you assault the unit spilling out. The BC can't reliably do this - their BS 3 is too unreliable and is best confined to mauling infantry with Pistols or Flamers. That's Bolt Pistols, not Plasma Pistols by the way. :)

 

As it is, I find that the BC are too dedicated to an anti-infantry role while the GH being more flexible are a staple in my lists because they're so versatile. With a Mech environment pervading the GH are definitely the better all-round choice.

 

@Shadow Wulfen: I'd rather sleep with Margaret Thatcher than use Lukas the Trickster. He's that useless.

[Korraz]

Well, you can use him to Last Laugh Emperor Titans in Apocalpse.

[Shadow Wulfen]

Surely Lukas isn't THAT bad.

 

He has the stat line of a Wolf Guard Battle Leader and has a piece of wargear which makes him harder to hit (once the squad is dead), and he isn't that much more expensive than one either.

 

Sure he is expensive and if you want to have 13 other Blood Claws, a Wolf Guard and a Wolf Priest mounted in a Land Raider Crusader with all the trimmings you are paying a total of 788 points.

 

There must be someone who has fielded Lukas in a small game (1500-2500 points), anyone?

[Stormbrow II]

He has the stat line of a Wolf Guard Battle Leader and has a piece of wargear which makes him harder to hit (once the squad is dead), and he isn't that much more expensive than one either.

No he doesn't. He crucially doesn't give the unit a boost to Ld 9. This will make a difference when it comes to Ld tests obviously but Tank-shocking Ld 8 Marines is one way to get rid of them en masse. A newer player might be stupid enough to throw a Land Raider on top of him but a better player will throw Rhinos at him or aim their Land Raider away from him so that Last Laugh either takes out something expendable (Rhino) or simply avoids him and pushes your Marines out of the way (Raider).

 

His Last Laugh is a gimmick, a one-trick pony that a competent player will either use something expendable to tie up or simply delay it. If you put Lukas in a Rhino you shoot it til it can't move. That usually means he's too far away to do anything.

 

If he's in a Raider and you can't take it out unless its up close (Melta weapons) then you offer it a tasty morsel to tempt his squad out and after its been devoured you pummel his squad with firepower.

 

Getting the charge with him makes him far better because you put him in base-to-base with an enemy IC or MC and wait to be eaten. Getting charged makes him a liability because if his squad has taken casualties already you simply wail on them until he falls over and takes one or two scrubs with him. There's also the problem of his Dopplecloakthingy that is now useless: he only gets the benefits if he's the last member of his squad left. So let me get this straight - you want your guy to get killed but this silly jacket makes it harder for the enemy to do it. Well done GW on counter-productivity.

 

I tried him when the book first came out and managed to terrify my opponent with his Last Laugh rule and he kept his Daemon Princes miles away from me so they could be shot. He contributed little in that game (he killed 2 Chaos Marines in combat).

 

When he was used against me I simply popped his Rhino transport and forced him to slog across the battlefield ignoring him until I'd dealt with the rest of my opponent's army. He ran around screaming "FEAR MY PLASMA PISTOL AND LAST LAUGH!". Ignoring his 12" threat radius I pummeled his unit with Krak missiles until he fell over. Those were 1750 games by the way. Basically people ignore him as he's too slow unless mounted in a Raider but I'd rather keep that for a unit that can last more than 1 round of combat.

 

Again, Lukas is a very poor choice. A regular WG is a better choice. With the points saved by not buying him you can almost get an entire 10 man Grey Hunter squad which are better than the Blood Claws he must accompany anyway.