Venerables are amazing in CC

[TiguriusX]

I take many things for granted in WH40k. I know dreadnaughts and venerables are good but I never thought about specifics before.

I was focused on analyzing Bjorn and Venerables the other day and these details are still in the back of my mind.

 

Venerables are virtually indestructable once they get into close combat against S6 or less when they have extra armor

Opponents need a 6 to glance and can't penetrate

They also get a penalty of -2 to vehicle damage

 

If your opponent manages to glance you have the following outcomes (requires extra armor):

1-4 Shaken

5-Weapon destroyed

6-Immobilised

 

A venerable in melee combat could care less about shaken or immobilised (at least the first time around)...if they destroy a weapon then you can force a reroll

 

That means after all the to hit rolls and actually achieving a glance:

-Your opponent STILL requires double 5 to merely destroy a weapon (1/36 or 3%)

-If you are already immobilized from previous combat he STILL requires consecutive 5+ rolls to destroy a weapon (4/36 or 11%)

[rodgambit]

Ya I have a BA army and a 13th CO. and in my BA army I drop pod 2-3 decked out dreads and they murder everything. Last game I had 3 on the board and one got killed after being shot in the back through cover so he failed a +4 invul and my buddy rolled 5+ back to back times, which doesn't happen often. The other 2 wrecked shop and didn't even have a scratch against them, venerable is well worthe the points.

[TiguriusX]

Every time I think I can't spare a PF for my GH squads I will have to remember how badly they will fare if a dreadnaught comes calling

[rodgambit]

Just keep a lone wolf near your squads. I've rolled out DC furioso against a TDA lone wolf with SS/CF and the lone wolf destroys the dread 90% of the time. You can also run that lone wolf for 85 points or 95 with the extra wolves to take wounds on. I plan on using at least 1-2 lone wolves every game and keep them with a GH squad behind a rhino just incase something nasty comes to contest my objective.

[Spazmonkey]

Just keep a lone wolf near your squads. I've rolled out DC furioso against a TDA lone wolf with SS/CF and the lone wolf destroys the dread 90% of the time. You can also run that lone wolf for 85 points or 95 with the extra wolves to take wounds on. I plan on using at least 1-2 lone wolves every game and keep them with a GH squad behind a rhino just incase something nasty comes to contest my objective.

 

 

While not very fluffy, that is a good idea.

I have a list that has a Ven dread in it, but am seriously thinking about dropping arjac from the list for a second ven dread...

[Hjaertrr]

Please excuse my ingorance, but aren't close combat hits resolved against the rear armor? Therfore S6 would glance on a 4, penetrating on a 5+. Correct me if I have missed something.

[Spazmonkey]

Please excuse my ingorance, but aren't close combat hits resolved against the rear armor? Therfore S6 would glance on a 4, penetrating on a 5+. Correct me if I have missed something.

 

I thought it was against the front Armor.... but now im not so sure....

[mastrchief33]

Attacks against a walker are vs front armor in cc. Grenades also do little to a walker like the dreadnought in cc unless its already immobilized.

 

A dread in cc is a scary prospect, the problem being is that it so rarely happens that taking a ven simply for added survivability in cc just isn't worth it. I admit that the rule is good, but its not worth 60 points in my opinion.

[Grey Mage]

Yep- the survivability of walkers comes from the fact that unlike any other vehicle they take all hits on front armor.

 

Wich is why an armored sentinel makes a scary outrider unit against most armies, and why a powerfist should be included in most squads.

[Hjaertrr]

Wow, didn't realise that. Thats the kind of motivation I needed to buy another dread. Thanks!

[Max_Dammit]

Just keep a lone wolf near your squads. I've rolled out DC furioso against a TDA lone wolf with SS/CF and the lone wolf destroys the dread 90% of the time. You can also run that lone wolf for 85 points or 95 with the extra wolves to take wounds on. I plan on using at least 1-2 lone wolves every game and keep them with a GH squad behind a rhino just incase something nasty comes to contest my objective.

 

Sorry but a you can single him out in CC and the dread will hit first so that 90% should be a bit down. If you fail 1 INV save he's gone

[Wolf Guard Hengist]

I don't have my codex with me but isn't a lone wolf 2 woundsand eternal warrior?

[Hjaertrr]

Yes, it is.

[Bartali]

Not convinced by Dreads in CC against infantry. They'll kill on average 1.1 MEQ every assault phase, and even if you don't get popped by a hidden fist, you're going to be locked in CC for the rest of the game.

 

CC against vehicles and monsterous creatures sure, but against infantry you're probably better off shooting them

[Max_Dammit]

I don't have my codex with me but isn't a lone wolf 2 woundsand eternal warrior?

 

Ok fail 2

 

Still have to hit him back, Not to sure about that 90% when you cant spread the love :P

[TiguriusX]

Not convinced by Dreads in CC against infantry. They'll kill on average 1.1 MEQ every assault phase, and even if you don't get popped by a hidden fist, you're going to be locked in CC for the rest of the game.

 

CC against vehicles and monsterous creatures sure, but against infantry you're probably better off shooting them

 

All valid counter points. Let me try to address some in support of our venerable friends.

 

You may kill an average of 1.1 MEQ but the potential of a S10 power weapon at I4 with WS5 means there is potential to wipe out almost anything with an instant kill. This makes a dreadnaught a threat to any target. Even AV14 if he manages to catch it in close combat.

 

To emphasize the potential threat posed by a DCCW let me share the analysis I had when thinking up super wolf lord options and weighing pros/cons of warrior/bear sagas. Despite the super powers of a WL and TWM resulting in T5, they are still susceptible to instant death from a DCCW. That is basically the only thing they have to fear that is fairly common on the battlefield.

 

The price to pay for the DCCW potential is the strong units worth hunting may also be equipped with something that can hurt the dreadnaught in return. You will be relying on the venerable reroll (5+ twice in a row is 4/36 or 11% is required to outright destroy you...or to make it more attractive you will survive a penetrating hit 89% of the time). Not a bad risk to take IMO and definitely worth 60pts for venerable status.

 

Locking a dreadnaught with an opposing unit of troops in combat for multiple turns isn't a bad thing either. Most likely the dreadnaught did some firing before engaging in melee. With 2 assaults per turn odds favor the dreadnaught either eliminating the infantry or tarpitting them preventing objective points.

 

As for the preferred tactic of shooting the infantry to achieve more kills that would all depend on how you equip your dread. The ability of the dreadnaught to dominate at range or in melee combat is what makes him a true threat. If the enemy you are about to engage has AV ranged weaponary charge in. If he is packing too many PF type weapons thin his ranks with fire first. All of this from a mobile heavy weapon platform! I love it.

 

My recent interest in venerable dreads has me leaning towards Plasma Cannons as the best weapon for threat potential. AP2 AOE and accurate enough to cause havoc while you move closer to melee combat. Some more numbers to look at:

 

Venerable has BS5

That means you will hit dead on with any scatter of 5 or less (10/36 or 28%)

At worst you will scatter 1" (15/36 or 42%)

At worst you will scatter 2" (21/36 or 58%)

 

Not as accurate as say a TL-AC on a venerable (1/36 chance of missing) but much more potential to wipe out expensive targets if you aim at groups of infantry.

 

As with many good toys the price gives me pause. A PC venerable can be useful without a drop pod but he won't get much melee done. Probably makes an ideal bodyguard for your LF though.

 

A drop pod increases odds of pushing your venerable down the opponent's throat if you can afford it.

[Hfran Morkai]

I dunno, a Ven Dread is fun to use.

 

I'm planning five Dreadnoughts at company level, Bjorn, two Vens geared for combat and two normal dreads for shooting duty.

 

It was hilarious when we could take them as HQ choices though and they had four attacks.

 

I was playing 'nids and he had a twenty four strong brood of Hormagaunts assault me first turn to tie up the plasma cannon. My Dreadnought killed two gaunts and killed the rest in a sweeping advance, leaving him free in my own turn.

[TiguriusX]

I dunno, a Ven Dread is fun to use.

 

I'm planning five Dreadnoughts at company level, Bjorn, two Vens geared for combat and two normal dreads for shooting duty.

 

It was hilarious when we could take them as HQ choices though and they had four attacks.

 

I was playing 'nids and he had a twenty four strong brood of Hormagaunts assault me first turn to tie up the plasma cannon. My Dreadnought killed two gaunts and killed the rest in a sweeping advance, leaving him free in my own turn.

 

Bjorn + 2 venerables is just plain mean

 

Bjorn adds to the venerable numbers with his ward of the primarch save AND 13 armor....should be fun!

 

Walk Bjorn up the board and lets his friends drop in as a distraction while troops speed forward. I think my next list will be focused on that concept (yes I am a theoretical army building addict)

[Hfran Morkai]

Bjorn + 2 venerables is just plain mean

 

Bjorn adds to the venerable numbers with his ward of the primarch save AND 13 armor....should be fun!

 

Walk Bjorn up the board and lets his friends drop in as a distraction while troops speed forward. I think my next list will be focused on that concept (yes I am a theoretical army building addict)

 

As it's for Apocalypse (about 10,000 points total!) I'm considering the Ancients assault wave formation which would allow the Dreadnoughts to gain flank march, but there'd likely be argument over whether Bjorn can do it and I'm not sure if Ven Dreads are included, though they should be.

 

Either way it's going to be fun.

 

Bjorn with Plasma cannon and two vens with assault cannons.

[Max_Dammit]

As for getting locked in CC, i always have a pack near to get him out of CC if need be

[Rindaris]

Dreads are nice, don't get me wrong. But this weekend I faced a marine list, twice, that had a Ven Dread and a regular Dread in each game. First game the Ven Dread took a meltabomb to the face and I rolled a 6, forced reroll... 5. I still had a thunderhammer, wulfen and all the krak grenades to go. Point being that if its a full squad with anything like a power fist, thunderhammer, meltabombs, then its best to keep your dread away.

 

@Wolfheart

If memory serves that formation says ANY dreadnought varient, so I don't see why Bjorn couldn't join. Besides, you can't get more ancient then him.

[Prot]

This is an interesting thread for me because I have be honest, as much as it pains me to say so, I find the dreadnaught to be possibly the greatest waste of points in the codex.

 

Typically in every 'marine' list I've made I really tried to include a dread. They fail so miserably... close combat only makes them last a 'tiny' bit longer, but I find they just go down so bloody fast. I always go with extra armour and a basic /heavy flamer/multimelta loadout to keep them cheap. I always drop pod them as well, but I'm losing steam.

 

My last successful lists, I've pulled the basic dread for Grey Hunters and seemingly get a lot more bang for my buck.

[rodgambit]

Ya I was exaggerating with the 90% in my OP. However, if you compare a lone wolf in TDA/SS/CF to a ven dread he's like half the cost and with 2 wounds and eternal warrior he generally lives long enough to chain fist back. I was comparing to a furioso who needed 4's to hit but had lots of attacks and the lone wolf only needed 3's to hit since furiosos are WS 4. The point was, keep a lone wolf near a base or objective incase something nasty outflanks or falls from the sky like a dread, chances are with the charge you'll be able to deal with it, rather then tie up an entire CC unit.

[TiguriusX]

This is an interesting thread for me because I have be honest, as much as it pains me to say so, I find the dreadnaught to be possibly the greatest waste of points in the codex.

 

Typically in every 'marine' list I've made I really tried to include a dread. They fail so miserably... close combat only makes them last a 'tiny' bit longer, but I find they just go down so bloody fast. I always go with extra armour and a basic /heavy flamer/multimelta loadout to keep them cheap. I always drop pod them as well, but I'm losing steam.

 

My last successful lists, I've pulled the basic dread for Grey Hunters and seemingly get a lot more bang for my buck.

 

 

That is the crux of your problem. You are using basic dreadnaughts and dropping them in a kill zone expecting them to survive

 

A dreadnaught does not have the survivability of a venerable. B)

 

I will use the same numbers and odds but put it in terms of an armor save to emphasize how much better a venerable is

 

Spending 60pts to obtain a reroll on the damage chart gives you an 88% chance to survive a succesful hit + penetrate (they need to roll 5+ twice in a row to "kill" you. There are only 4 possible ways to do that with 2d6 5-5 or 5-6 or 6-5 or 6-6. That means 32/36 times you survive)

 

If this were a normal infantry man it would be SUPERIOR to a 2+ invulnerable armor save (5/6 is only 83%)

I think 60pts for a 2+ invulnerable armor save is worth it...the codex tosses in +WS/BS as a bonus

 

If you run a dread...upgrade to venerable status. It is WORTH the cost.

 

Calling it a superior 2+ invulnerable may give you a different perspective on things

[antique_nova]

i find that dreadnoughts are better in larger games and against some characters.