terminatorAM Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 This topic is a little similar to other topics floating around this boar but I wanted some opinions on a slightly more specific aspect of the competitive-list topic. I have played C:SM at the 2000pnt level off and on for a good amount now and I believe I understand the roles of most units in our codex and how to counter a variety of units from other commonly used armies. However, I have only competed in one tournement (in which i did not do very well at all) and have been having problems with forming a balanced/all-comers list in order to take on most opponents i would see in a tournement scean while remaining a strong, yet tactically flexible force that the SM are supposed to excel at. some common issues i face are how many killer type units to include in a list, comparied to the usual scoring units along with support, and how varied theese hammer units should be. should they each be focused on killing one type of units (ex: TH/SS termies) or be flexible (tact termies)? Also should the HQ (ex: Lysander) ride along with this unit or do his own thing so as not to have too many eggs in one basket? I want to field an mechanized competitive al-comers list without relying too much on all my eggs in one basket syndrome, has anyone tested any lists that are similar? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186754-unit-type-balance-in-competitive-lists/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 some common issues i face are how many killer type units to include in a list, comparied to the usual scoring units along with support, and how varied theese hammer units should be. should they each be focused on killing one type of units (ex: TH/SS termies) or be flexible (tact termies)? I want to field an mechanized competitive al-comers list without relying too much on all my eggs in one basket syndrome, has anyone tested any lists that are similar? I play Chaos Marines so some of my advice might be inappropriate (and possibly tainted :D ) but I'll share it for what its worth. I like redundancy in my armies because I hate to rely on 1 unit to perform a certain action. Having said that, I don't believe that redundancy has to come in the form of spamming the same unit over and over but rather using units that have the same/similar roles. Usually what this means is that my 1st choice unit for any particular role is a specialist while my 2nd choice unit for that same role is more of a generalist unit. This works very well with Codex Marines who have great specialists supported by decent generalists (Tac squads). Here is an example, going for an anti-tank unit. 1st choice = 2 Multi-Melta Attack Bikes 2nd choice = 10 Tactical Marines, Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Power Fist in a Rhino/Drop Pod As for straight hammer/killer units, I don't like to rely on them as much as other people. However as Chaos, I can get by just fine using alot of basic units. I would say that things work better with support, so I wouldn't rely on a single unit carry the field all by itself (even TH/SS Terminators in a Land Raider) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186754-unit-type-balance-in-competitive-lists/#findComment-2208987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 IIRR someone was postulizing a tournament list needs to start with 1 HQ followed by one troop choice (scoring unit) per 500 points. So at 2000, you'd have an HQ followed by 4 troop choice equivalents. Even this is wide open. Nominally this could be with a robust HQ and 4 fully kitted out mech squads at 1200 points. Or alternatively master, 2 tac squads, and a combat-squaded sternguard unit. All with transport, upgraded sergeants, and special/heavy weapons appropriate for the job. This leaves 800 +/- to go. Choices then can be impacted by any tournament-specific list building/point requirements. Barring that, go all out on most weaponry for the point cost, BUT you have to really choose between shooty units vs power-weapong-rich assault units and their delivery systems, and the local metagame (mech, horde, balanced, magic, etc.). for 800 points, you can squeeze in alot of codex marine firepower, ranging from as simple as 2 large terminator squads to as insane as over 16 attack bikes. Redundancy here can be a beautiful thing. Overall, at this point, you are likley constrained by what you can field. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186754-unit-type-balance-in-competitive-lists/#findComment-2209042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Ive tested a number of lists like this, its how I play my tournament marine armies... what did you want to know? Both of these guys above me have good insight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186754-unit-type-balance-in-competitive-lists/#findComment-2209200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 I haven't played 2000pts much, so I don't know what builds would work real well and what would fail, but my general consensus is that you need at least two big, dangerous units. One of these units, IMHO, should always be a 5 men squad of th/ss termies in a LR classic with extra armor and an optional multimelta. Some people think that having as many as 7-8 assault termies in a LR crusader with EA and MM is the way to go, but I find 5 th/ss are enough, and that a LR classic is the best all around LR. This unit, and the LR, simply fulfill a niche in a vanilla army that few other things can fill up so efficiently. As for the second unit, there aren't many options. I think sternguard are the best deal. They don't need much in the way of upgrades (a powerfist and either two meltaguns/heavy flamers), and nine of them in a rhino are a really good unit. The other option is a big hefty bike squadron with mm attack bike, powerfist, and dual meltaguns. That sort of unit can really lay down the hurt against anything, while surviving a lot and having the ability to quickly zoom around the table. The only problem is that it's vulnerable to lash. The third option is another LR with more assault termies - but I don't like this. Even at 2000, having ~950 pts in two units and two tanks just seems like an eggbasket. As for the HQ, I think having an option to put the HQ into different transports is a great thing. This is why I prefer artificer armor HQs - they can fit into rhinos and razorbacks. This allows you to adapt your strategy depending on the situation. However, if I was playing a really killy HQ (such as a beefed up captain, vulkan, calgar, or lysander) then keeping him anywhere except in the LR is IMHO a bad idea. You really want the assault ramp for that guy. I also don't think you need 4 troop choices at 2000. Three tactical squads are just enough. They're survivable, mobile, can combat squad for considerably more scoring power, and having three big supporting units is more then enough for vanilla armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186754-unit-type-balance-in-competitive-lists/#findComment-2209450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminatorAM Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 thanks for the advice. Giga, i like the way youre thinking with the 2 killy units as it does seem hard to include two while maintaining enough other units to be tactically flexible. this is the list im working on so far. nothings really set in stone except i love to combo of lysander w/ tact termies in the LRC, although it is most of my eggs in one basket. Ive heard of double raider lists working well at this level but with whats in mine already it seems that adding another would make my list too specialized HQ First Champion Agius (Lysander) (200) killer Troops Tactical Squad I - (210) hunter + 5 marines meltagun missile launcher powerfist combi-melta Rhino - (35) Tactical Squad II - (190) defender +5 marines plasma gun lascannon Rhino - (35) Tactical Squad III - (175) defender +5 marines flamer plasma cannon Rhino - (35) Elites Terminator Squad - (230) killer assault cannon Venerable Dreadnought - (185) hunter assault cannon heavy flamer Drop Pod - (35) Fast Attack Assault Squad - (235) cleaner +5 marines x2 flamers powerfist Land Speeder - (90) hunter typhoon missile launcher Heavy Support Land Raider Crusader - (260) killer multi-melta Predator - (85) fire support heavy bolters Total: 2000pnts 46/7/1 14 KP I want a mostly mech force with some surprise elements sucg as the podding dread and DP speeder and the assault squad to back up the tacts but im not sure if these are the best supporting units for the list and am concerned about having only one really killy unit in the list Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186754-unit-type-balance-in-competitive-lists/#findComment-2209483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 That list seems okay, though it does seem to lack long-range shooting. If I was making a 2000 pts list based around lysander, this is what I would do: 2000 ptsKP:14 HQ: Lysander – 200 pts Librarian – 100 pts - the avenger - null zone TROOPS: Tactical Squad “Red” (10 men) – 235 pts - meltagun - missile launcher - power fist instead of bolt pistol on sergeant - rhino Tactical Squad “Yellow” (10 men) – 215 pts - flamer - plasma cannon - chainsword instead of boltgun on sergeant - razorback Tactical Squad “Red” (10 men) – 230 pts - flamer - missile launcher - power fist instead of bolt pistol on sergeant - rhino ELITES: Assault Terminators (5 men) – 200 pts - replace lightning claws with thunder hammers & storm shields Sternguard Veterans (9 men) – 305 pts - power fist instead of bolt pistol on sergeant - heavy flamer x2 - rhino FAST ATTACK: Land Speeder Squadron (2 speeders) – 140 pts - multimelta x2 - replace heavy bolter with heavy flamer Attack Bike Squadron (2 bikes) – 100 pts - replace heavy bolters with multimeltas HEAVY SUPPORT: Land Raider – 275 pts - extra armor - multimelta Got plenty of melta, and two big hefty dangerous units, plenty of scoring troops, and plenty of both anti-tank and anti-infantry. It also got a libby for anti-psyker protection, and to add the much needed anti-inv save/MEQ boost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186754-unit-type-balance-in-competitive-lists/#findComment-2209501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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