Prophecy Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 So I just lost a really nasty game against an IG player. He had two Vendettas, a LR, a platoon w/ commisar, a HWT, two chimeras packing dudes with grenade launchers, a pack of stormtroopers and the close-combat unit of death. It seems downright unbeatable, but then I don't know the IG codex so maybe I'm missing something. Unit was the command squad with four veterans (2 GL), 2 bodyguards, Straken and Yarrick. This made them fearless, have counter-attack, furious charge (working off of counterattack), the ability to let him reroll to hit and forced me to reroll successful saves (or maybe wounds, don't remember). It was nasty. With the +1 Str and +1 Init, these guys were space marines with every rule in the book. Stracken got to toss successful wounds off on his guards, yarrick has eternal warrior and a powerfist that works at his own initiative. The Vendetta dropped them off in CC range on the first turn, so I only got one round of shooting in before this squad destroyed a Venny and a GH pack w/ WG (powerfist), MotW, the standard and a plasma gun. So what do you think? This squad single-handedly won the game for him while everything else was wrapped up dealing with armor. Granted, I made some mistakes by worrying more about the Leman Russ and vendettas.... ugh. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Yarric- fearless, and wounds on him personally are rerolled. Only on him. Straken- Furious Charge, relicblade with 2d6 armor pen, and counter-attack. Hrmm... yeah, looks legal really. Note that its Straken with the S6 powerfist a Iniative *more like a chainfist really* and Yarrick goes at I 1. 2 Bodygaurds.... dont have PWs or anything. Yeah, did you know they cost 360pts, without a single upgrade? Sounds like they made their points back, but not to much more really. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2209343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I don't really have time to go into it, but at a glance it looks like he did a bunch of things he shouldn't have been allowed to do. You got cheesed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2209384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 The rules clearly state that powerfists ALWAYS STRIKE AT I1, it even notes that no special rules can make an exception to this... so if its called a powerfist or says it works like a powerfist...it hits at I1.. ALWAYS. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2209395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglespuss Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 I agree with previous. One thing though? you may get some more replies if you put your topic title into English... I only clicked on it to find out what on earth it meant. thanks. (Just a tip with acronyms; accepted format is - state the 'full' name once, and then acronym after, you can' assume everyone knows what the acronym stands for or WTASF. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2209399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Yarrick indeed has a powerfist and goes at I1. Straken counts as being strength six though and goes in initiative order. It's a nasty unit but a fair few points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2209400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderpup Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 So power fists, thunder hammers, and chain fists don't benefit from furious charge? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2209425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Nope, they each have a special rule stating the I value they hit at, they do not use the weilders I value, FC gives the weilder +1I, not the weapon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2209427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 So power fists, thunder hammers, and chain fists don't benefit from furious charge? You only get the strength benefit, and that is after the multiplication, making it strength 7 in the case of a Guardsman. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2209428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderpup Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Oh well, "Post and Learn" :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2209436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Oh well, "Post and Learn" :P Indeed, it is sometimes better to learn from those who have been through the system. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2209438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 also, keep in mind FC is only good for the first turn of assault. after that the guardsmen are back to being mere mortals. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2209440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Corwin Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Furious charge only works if they assault that turn. It does not state that it works with counter attack. If he used it when counter attacking that was wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2209540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullr Direfang Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Furious charge only works if they assault that turn. It does not state that it works with counter attack. If he used it when counter attacking that was wrong. this statement alone will start a whole "counter-attack word" argument, and i am surprise it hasn't come up yet. i would personally say that it doesn't apply. so unless there is an FAQ about this some where i am going to say it doesn't. but there will be those that argue that since counter-attack states "as if they too had assaulted that turn." and the fact that furious charge states "in a turn which they assaulted....". so to save about a page or two of going back and forth, make sure that you and who ever you are playing with agree on how the rules work for things. every one is going to have different opinions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2209552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Corwin Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Furious charge only works if they assault that turn. It does not state that it works with counter attack. If he used it when counter attacking that was wrong. this statement alone will start a whole "counter-attack word" argument, and i am surprise it hasn't come up yet. i would personally say that it doesn't apply. so unless there is an FAQ about this some where i am going to say it doesn't. but there will be those that argue that since counter-attack states "as if they too had assaulted that turn." and the fact that furious charge states "in a turn which they assaulted....". so to save about a page or two of going back and forth, make sure that you and who ever you are playing with agree on how the rules work for things. every one is going to have different opinions. Actually the part before the bit about asaulting says: If the test is successful all models in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn. "as if they too had assaulted that turn" follows the part about getting the extra attack. It is part of a sentence not a stand alone rule. What is more important is that the furious charge rule does not mention counter attack. Consider: If the GED test is passed the student gets a diploma, exactly as if he too had finished high school. Basically the same sentence but it does not say the student finished high school it says he gets a diploma as if he finished high school. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2209613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CainTheHunter Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Yarrick makes whole squad stubborn and on the turn he assaults, he and the whole squad re-roll any failed to hit rolls. Wounds on him are rerolled, he's immune to instadeath as well. Straken grants the Fearless rule, as well as counter attack and furious charge. His CCW counts as power weapon - not fist - and in his profile Str value is 6 (note that it does not say that his Str is doubled, so his hand is no way a PF). A hell lot of points - Yarrick costs 185, Straken 95, Vendetta with no upgrades 130. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2209627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
antique_nova Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 that list isn't very hard to beat. it looks a thousand points. is it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2209773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophecy Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 So power fists, thunder hammers, and chain fists don't benefit from furious charge? You only get the strength benefit, and that is after the multiplication, making it strength 7 in the case of a Guardsman. Just out of curiosity, what is this based on? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't see anything about it one way or the other. Was it in a FAQ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2210220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Wolf Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 So power fists, thunder hammers, and chain fists don't benefit from furious charge? You only get the strength benefit, and that is after the multiplication, making it strength 7 in the case of a Guardsman. Just out of curiosity, what is this based on? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't see anything about it one way or the other. Was it in a FAQ? BRB...oops, sorry Nurglepuss, Big Rule Book...BRB Furious charge give's you +1 to initiative and +1 to strength. So guardsman on the turn he charged would get Strength 4 and initiative 4. If he had a power fist: Strength 7 (power fist doubles strength THEN and +1 for Furious Charge = Strength 7). BUT now he hits at initiative 1 because of the fist. Don't know where in the BRB, but it's in there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2210228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 power fists always strike at I1 regardless of the I of the suer or any other factors (its under the power fist entry int he CC section of the rule book). there is a side box early on in the rule book about midfied strength and it staes that if you have +1 stre and double strength on the sme model the doubling up happens first then you add +1. in this case furious charge and power fist, you double your str then add the +1 strength for furious charge but all your attacks are carried out at I1. the only time this will ever change is if menioned in the characters special rules (zagstruk for instance counts as having a power fist that hits at I order when he charges). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2210231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Also basic Mathematical principle PEDMAS Parenthesis Exponents Division Multiplication Addition Subtraction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2210233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophecy Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 Also basic Mathematical principle PEDMAS Parenthesis Exponents Division Multiplication Addition Subtraction. Hah! Very nice! Second question: is there any documentation that furious charge doesn't go off of counter-attack? Or is that one of those contested rules? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2210262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Wolf Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Scroll up. It's a huge debate. Some say yes and some say no. Need's to be FAQ'd by GW. Until then, best to agree at your club what the local ruling will be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2210264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 So power fists, thunder hammers, and chain fists don't benefit from furious charge? You only get the strength benefit, and that is after the multiplication, making it strength 7 in the case of a Guardsman. Just out of curiosity, what is this based on? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't see anything about it one way or the other. Was it in a FAQ? BRB...oops, sorry Nurglepuss, Big Rule Book...BRB Furious charge give's you +1 to initiative and +1 to strength. So guardsman on the turn he charged would get Strength 4 and initiative 4. If he had a power fist: Strength 7 (power fist doubles strength THEN and +1 for Furious Charge = Strength 7). BUT now he hits at initiative 1 because of the fist. Don't know where in the BRB, but it's in there. Its on page 7 of the main rule book. Whenever there is a multiplication and addition to a stat, multiply before adding (same as the rules of math say) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2210268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rahl02 Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Also basic Mathematical principle PEDMAS Parenthesis Exponents Division Multiplication Addition Subtraction. I think it's PEMDAS, you do the multiplication before the division, the rest is correct. (and now that I'm typing this my wife is clapping her hands and saying I'm smart because she's never heard of PEMDAS before.) Sorry but that acronym has been drilled into my head since 3rd grade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/186801-ig-close-combat/#findComment-2210321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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