Kahn tactical advice

[Yotakka]

as the title suggested i have recently become atracted to the ability to outflank which Kahn can bestow upon my army. my dilema becomes how best to use this ability?

 

I have considered 2 squads of 3 MM atack bikes outflanking and poping armor. also outflanking 5 man tac squads in razorbacks or a 10 man squad of sternguard to pump bolter rounds into the weak points of my opponents line. lastly an assault squad with a pf and single flamer has served me well in my shrike list (substituting the infiltrate for outflank when i didnt get 1st turn).

 

What do you guys think about an army where all but one 10 man tac squad with rhino, ML, flamer, pw, and a LRC with kahn, a chappy, and assault termies?

what units have you used to the best effect while outflanking?

[liberty790]

Kind of a point sink, and not so much competitive, but its fun; Khan + Pedro + 10 man honor guard squad. Assaults at Str 5, Init 5, 5 attacks for each honor guard, 4 for Pedro, and 6 for Khan. Totals 50 Str 5 power attacks, 4 str 8 power attacks, and 6 str 6 power attacks, totals 60 attacks in all. Death to pretty much anything on the field. I used this once against a Tau and MEQ duo, but with Shrike instead of Khan, everything else was the same as above, it was absolutely horrible for my enemy. You have to play them smart, ex. assault a building and systematically destroy everything inside, especially helpful when the enemy thinks they have a building from which to fire all their heavy weapons under a cover save, even better when they fortify it for you so when his forces outside the building are all saying "AH GARBAGE!!" and they shoot into the building at your forces cutting everything in the building to pieces, you'll benefit from the fortified cover save. It worked well for me, and I'm not sure if it was a fluke or if it was actually a good build, but I'll definatly try it again some day.

 

edit: Forgot Khan and his squad has Hit and Run too, so if by some off chance your enemy does survive 60 power attacks, just use hit and run, the rules say "at the end of the assault phase", not "your assault phase" so just break contact at the end of your opponents assault phase once you've got in your retaliation attacks, move back a couple inches, shoot your opponent with some bolt pistols and Pedro's storm bolter, then re-charge the enemy squad and hit them again with 60 STR5, 6, and 8 power attacks. Rinse and repeat for tough stains.

[Duce]

would it not be S9 since the powerfist gets+1 str? but does not benefit from the + initiative?

[ShinyRhino]

The thing you have to remember when using Outflank is that it's random. You have a 66% chance of ending up on the side you want. If the battle ends up largely on one side of the board, your incorrectly-Outflanked unit won't be doing a whole lot.

Take a look at the battlefield before deployment. How is the terrain set up? Are there any chokepoints on either side of the table? Lots of cover? Obstacles your outflankers might have to navigate around?

If you're playing an objective mission, take these factors into consideration when placing the markers. If you have more than one objective to place, it might behoove you to place them in areas your outflankers can reach late in the game. Your opponent might realize this and attempt to castle up on theose to fight off your outflanking forces.

Remember that you must declare whichunits are outflanking as part of your deployment phase. You cannot change your mind later! If the battle ends up squarely in the center of the board, or in your backfield, your outflankers still have to come on from the sides.

It's important to realize that just because a unit comes on from the short board edges, they don't have to travel toward the interior of the board. I've seen many players Outflank a unit, and drive it directly inward toward the center of the board. This is also true of bike units. However, there is nothing that says you can't drive right down the short edge! If you want to get a unit of bikers onto the table via Outflank, but also want them to have a Turbo Boost cover save for a turn, drive them 18-24" down the short edge from their entry point. Perfectly valid tactic.

 

Personally, I feel Outflanking is best used by generalist units due to the random nature of the units' arrival on the table. Sure, a melta-death unit can be devastating when arriving on the flank of your opponent's armored spearhead. But if they end upon the wrong end of the table, they're basically out of the fight unless they're fast-movers. However, a more generalist unit with a mix of weapon ranges can fire at a larger range of available targets, or assault somethign squishy. Not much fun to have your MM Attack Bike squad show up on the side of the table that's got no tanks, but lots of gribblies!

 

Remember to bone up on the rules for Combat Tactics and Outflank. There are many units in the Codex that cannot benefit from the rule, because they don't have Combat Tatics. Dreads, tanks, etc. These end up having to deploy from reserve normally, or hold their own while waiting for help.

 

I'd recommend against outflanking your entire army. It's not like a Drop Pod Assault where you get something in Turn One to work with. If you outflanke everything, a savvy opponent is going to set up sacrificial units, screeners, and some heavy guns to pick you apart as your units come onto the board.

[Yotakka]

thanks for all the advice guys :P .

 

i do agree about the LR unit being a bit of a points sink and ive decided to change it to kahn, casius, and a command squad with all power weapons in that LR. sur casius already has feel no pain but he is also virtualy immune to instant death with his toughness 6.

 

as far as the not outflanking to much my list as of now is this

 

HQ

 

Kor'Sarro-160

 

command squad-175

4x pw

 

Casius-125

 

 

TROOPS

 

10 man tac squad-205

flamer/ml

Rhino

 

5 man Tac squad-145

Razorback w/e.a.

 

5 man Tac squad-145

Razorback w/e.a.

 

ELITES

 

 

 

FAST ATTACK

 

assault squad-245

2x LC/2xflamers/mb

 

3x MMAB-150

 

3x MMAB-150

 

HEAVY SUPORT

 

LR-250

 

 

This gives me 5 outflanking units. one awsome assault unit, 2 serious tank hunters, and two scoring units that are decent at pumping out close range anti-infantry fire. with 2-3 untis comming on at the start of turn 2 and just under a 50% chance that both units come on the same side. then 2 more the next turn. and hopefully the turn 4 unit would be one of the 2 tac squads. alo i could combat squad the assault squad and run them up behind cover on both flanks to support what ever unit comes in on that side. which then gives me all of my troops on the start of turn 3.

 

any more C&C would be greatly apreciated :D

[Grey Mage]

Why no upgrades on the 5 man tactical squads? A powerfist or a combiweapon could help alot. Heck, even a stormbolter for more AI fire, but a powerfist for insurance seems a nessecity since the razorbacks have no real AT firepower.

 

Your 10 man outflanking squad likewise has no CC ability, and its mobile firepower is limited.

 

Your LR squad is alright, Cassius will be very helpful with the low body count, and hte standard raider will get you some nice LR firepower.

 

Id drop two MM attack bikes, one from each squad, and get powerfists on each of your tactical squads, a stormshield on one of your veterans *whos PW can then be upgraded to a ligtning claw* and get you 10pts.

 

Then, Id drop EA on both your razorback squads- use one of them on the Landraider.

 

With the 25pts you have left, put extra stormbolters on your razorbacks for more dakka, and a dozerblade on your outflanking rhino, just in case.

[Sanctjud]

I agree with Grey Mage on everything except dropping the MMABs...they are gold mines. Khan or not.

 

As to outflanking...generally people get Khan for 2.75 things.

1. Hit and Run: this is the main draw.

0.5. For Furious Charge...great on Ass Termy w/ claws or command squad with power weapons.

0.25. is for outflank, generally normal reserves are good enough.

 

My 7 Cents.

[Duce]

I'm agreeing with Sanctjud, MMAB's are a godssend and should always be used. I'm currently using 2 sets of 3 and they prove their worth over and over.

 

For outflank I've had some experience. Either outflank everything (If your a bike army like me, not sure about normal army) or only 1 unit. Don't do half and half or you will be picked off.

 

I've taken to doing it with my biker command squad for hitting a flank. rest of army begins on board unless its vs tau or Imperial guard. their soft enough to bring on and pummel the guys.

[Grey Mage]

See, and when I run them I find the third is usually overkill, so I like a pair, keeping it at a nice round 100pts.

[Rage]

I haven't managed to run my bikes for awhile (damn Xbox360 and Dragon Age!) but here's a thought for you....

 

Some people (e.g. Brother Tual, GreatCrusade08) have used Scouts in a Landspeeder Storm for late objective grab units or as a backfield harrassment unit, I've done it myself with some outstanding success (a totally annihilated flank in one game)...well with Khan you can get the same effect but with a more durable unit, especially when you get the 3++ save matched with T5 they are a pain to shift from an objective especially in the late game period (when the board is getting a bit bare).

 

The outflanking troops has allowed me to keep my troop numbers lower than I should really be allowed, which in a bike army is a blessing as I can get more elite stuff to clean the board a bit before they arrive. I was keeping 2 for outflanking purposes and kept 1 on the board with a full Melta weapon loadout for killing any Land Raider that got too close...so basically I run a total of 15 bike troops, so while Khan is more expensive than a normal Captain, I've found I save points that I would otherwise have to use for an additional bike squad (basically saving me about 140pts...not bad!). Everything else would be on the board including the Command Squad (Yes Ceres I kept with them :tu: ), as a fire magnet they would keep other units intact to dish out more pain and they would still have enough grunt to give the opponent a sick feeling.

 

While small normal bike squads suck at CC they are capable of taking out small fire support units in the back field, a multi-melta and a powersword on a 4+1 unit was enough to deal with small units or if needs be clear an objective of a squads remnants.

 

As for outflanking to the wrong board edge...Bah!...bikes can get to where they need to go plenty fast enough that this is barely an issue...24" is nothing to be sneered at.

 

To wrap up...I wouldn't outflank anything expensive, LR+Termies, Sternguard etc, unless you are very very very close with lady luck as through the vagaries of dice you could be short of a powerful unit for a large chunk of the game, which will leave you at a horrible disadvantage. Anyway you have Drop Pods for Sternguard and the like. The only unit I might possibly contemplate (as I am at the moment) is a Vanguard unit, since their Heroic waste of time special rule is only useful if you've forked out more points on gear to make them work, while outflanking them may actually get them close enough to do not be a waste of points.

[Yotakka]

so if i understand averyone correctly i should outflank everything or one thing, i should also take bikes and i need upgrades for my two 5 man squad sarges.

 

sounds like i need a new idea :( . how about putting the command squad kahn, and a regular chappy on bikes with the points from the lr, and using the eaxtra points twards stormbolters and pf's on my sarges?

 

thatd give me 35 points left over so i'd change the pw's to lc's and give 2 melta guns and 2 flamers to the command squad. this would make them an all arround unit which can tackle anything that gets thrown at them.

[ShinyRhino]

Minor threadomancy here, but I figured it was relevant to the discussion, and a waste to create a whole new thread...

 

I ran Khan as the HQ in my 1750 tourney list this month. He was TERRIBLE. Here's why:

 

My list looked like this:

 

Khan, Moondrakkan

Tac Squad with meltagun, combimelta/meltabombs, multimelta, Rhino with HK Missile.

Tac Squad with metlagun, missile launcher, power weapon/meltabombs, Rhino with Dozer.

8-man bike squad, powerfist, 2x meltaguns, attack bike with multimelta

8-man bike squad, power weapon/meltabombs, 2x plasmaguns, attack bike with heavy bolter

10-man assault squad, powerfist, flamer, plasma pistol

10-man Devastator squad, 3 ML

 

Khan's ability to make everything outflank is all well and good, but I didn't follow my own advice, and outflanked multiple units each game, typically the Rhino with HK, and the meltabikes. Bad idea.

Every game was objective based in some form. Outflanking on a 4x6 board left me with multiple choices to make every single time a unit arrived.

I had to decide if I was combat-squadding the arriving unit. I had to weigh the value of having two scoring units arriving from a short board edge against the risk of an extra Killpoint. Secondary win criteria beyond objectives were always determined by KP.

I then had to decide how far to move onto the board from the short edge. If I moved 12", I could shoot. More than that, and I had to turbo boost. Obviously, if you Boost,you lose a round of shoting, but gain a 3+ cover save. Problem with that is, by boosting 24" into the board, you've now just placed yourself firmly in the center of the action. 3+ cover is a great save, but it's worthless against an assault! You can be intercepted and chopped down in melee like common dogs. Bikers aren't shabby in CC when they get the charge. But they SUCK at taking one.

I managed to use Hit and Run a couple times, and I really liked it. The ability to get out of Dodge, move 3d6", and then come right back into the fray (or a different target entirely) while benefiting from Furious Charge is great. You just have to survive long enough to break away.

Khan gets to Run, and gets Fleet when he's on his bike. But he doesn't confer those to a squad, so they're only good if he's all alone. I did use this to wipe out a Dire Avenger squad single-handedly in the last turn of a game, but it was very risky.

Khan only ever gets a 3+/4++ save, no Eternal Warrior, and 3 wounds. Mediocre for a special character.

Moonfang is garbage. It's still only a power sword, NOT a relic blade. I did manage to roll a six on his to-wound rolls against an Ork Warboss on Bike TWICE in a game, but the warboss simply made his invulnerable save each time, negating the Instant Death wounds. I'd rather have a relic blade that hits at S6. Khan does retain a bolt pistol, granting his +1A for two CC weapons, but since it's only S4, the fewer S6 hits are better against anythign Khan will want to square up against.

 

Normally, I use a Marine Captain with Artificer Armor, Hellfire Rounds, and a Relic Blade on a Bike to lead this sort of army. Better chances to wound, a 2+/4++ save, and bolter shots that wound on a 2+. All of that comes out cheaper than Khan, but loses the outflank.

It's a trade I'd make any day. Khan actually feels like he'd be better leading an army ON FOOT than a biker army. I feel like there's some disconnect between him being a White Scars leader and the abilities of Marine Bikes. Bikes simply cannot muster the kill power to make an outflank move useful, whereas something killier can't muster the speed to use the outflank properly.

If you put Khan in a mechanized list, he might fare better. This would allow you the luxury of armored transport, alongside the threat of Outflanking arrival. Once the objectives are on the board, you can decide how useful an Outflank move will be, and deploy accordingly.

When I had so many bikers in the list, I'm vulnerable to heavy weapons fire that can vaporize my bikers with a single shot, resulting in Pinning and Leadership tests. I felt pressure to outflank with them to keep them safe from that fire, and ended up on the wrong edge of the board more than once.

 

I think it might be wiser to take the standard Bike Captain with my listed upgrades, and use things like Scout Bikers and Landspeeder Storms to get your Outflanking should you need it. Khan is simply too expensive when on his bike, and not effective enough in either shooting or melee to be a good addition to a squad.

[Koremu]

I have to say, if I were taking Khan on a bike, I would also take a Command Squad on bikes. Like I say in this thread, Biker Command Squads can fulfil a Heavy Cavalry role, and that will exploit what I regard as Khan's primary rules - Furious Charge and Hit and Run.

 

Using him on foot, you also need a unit to utilise those rules. Command Squad, Infantry Vanguard or of course Terminators. There are few things funnier than outflanking STR9 Assault Terminators. Outflanking STR9 Assault Terminators in a Land Raider is one of them.

 

To make Khan worthwhile, you need to take a squad with a bunch of Power Weapons IMO. STR5 Tacticals and Bikers don't justify his cost.

[ShinyRhino]

I have to say, if I were taking Khan on a bike, I would also take a Command Squad on bikes. Like I say in this thread, Biker Command Squads can fulfil a Heavy Cavalry role, and that will exploit what I regard as Khan's primary rules - Furious Charge and Hit and Run.

 

Using him on foot, you also need a unit to utilise those rules. Command Squad, Infantry Vanguard or of course Terminators. There are few things funnier than outflanking STR9 Assault Terminators. Outflanking STR9 Assault Terminators in a Land Raider is one of them.

 

To make Khan worthwhile, you need to take a squad with a bunch of Power Weapons IMO. STR5 Tacticals and Bikers don't justify his cost.

 

I'll agree with this 100%. That's what I kept yearning for, more powerful attacks with the Hit and Run. I5, S5 Marines are nice and all, but your opponent still gets his armor saves. And since I faced Fortune-spamming Eldar two games in a row, it didn't make much difference.

 

I also should have pair FAR more attention to the table layout. In only one of the three games was outflanking actually useful for grabbing objectives. The other two games saw objectives placed only on one side of the board, or in the center. It just wasn't smart of me to risk an outflank onto an irrlelevant side of the board.