grey knights successor chapters

[Brother Saturnus]

While paging through the DH codex I saw a miniature painted by John Blanche the "Grey Knights Terminator" in all red and gold. I think it would be cool to have a whole army painted that way. Is it Fluffy to have a successor chapter for the gk?

[Chengar Qordath]

I'm pretty sure fluff says the Grey Knights are a unique chapter with no successors.

[Magnus Thane]

Yep no successors around for them. Their primarch is a secret (possibly the Emperor) and they live/were created to serve Emperor/Ordos Maleus. They do not have successors. Their secrecy and isolation is a must. 'Successors' would heighten the risk of exposure.

So no... no successors for them.

 

But nothing keeps you from using Nemesis Weapons as closecombat or power weapons for a chapter or using their some of their rules for a special project. A gamingbuddy of mine is using the DH codex GK rules to reflect the Legion of the Damned if memory serves me. A very special Chapter was to be emulated with those rules in any case.

[Brother Saturnus]

Yea Id figured as much. Perhaps a elite purging unit or a clandestine hunting party of my own design, still operating under and with the GK might justify the paint. But I doubt thats fluff-savy. I might go with it regardless. That dark red/gold coloring is brutal. Thanks for the information guys!

[number6]

There is no reason you can't paint your GKs a color other than "grey". The GKs have had their colors altered by GW itself at least once since their inception. By all means: paint 'em red-n-gold if that suits your fancy.

 

If you're concerned about "fluff" to justify the coloring, perhaps the units in your army painted their armour so that they would resemble a nearby Astartes chapter. That way, on the off chance anybody survives, they'll just think they're seeing the Astartes.

[Taerij]

They had no Primarch.

 

Recent fluff has come to suggest they were formed from the remnants of loyalist fragments of traitor legions following the tragedy at Istvaan. The likes of Iacton Qruze and Nathaniel Garro.

 

They are unique in the sense that they were formed to combat a very specific threat, rather than being another Astarte strike force. They don't exactly follow the Index Astartes, so they wouldn't need successor chapters due to overpopulation or such.

[Brother Saturnus]

Thanks for the information! this has really helped out my decision. I think ill give it a go. Maybe try out the scheme on a extra guy ( incinerator as i use none but have like 4) and see how it looks with the normal gks. Again thanks alot!

[Kaled100]

Since no one else has mentioned it, I might as well - in the short story Headhunted by Steve Parker (in the Heroes of the Space Marines anthology) it says that the Exorcists have Grey Knight geneseed.

 

Whether you choose to believe that or not is up to you, but there is precedent for a Grey Knight successor chapter - even if it is one that follows a completely different doctrine to it's 'parent'.

[KingDeath]

Since no one else has mentioned it, I might as well - in the short story Headhunted by Steve Parker (in the Heroes of the Space Marines anthology) it says that the Exorcists have Grey Knight geneseed.

 

Whether you choose to believe that or not is up to you, but there is precedent for a Grey Knight successor chapter - even if it is one that follows a completely different doctrine to it's 'parent'.

 

Well, and Goto says that the Blood Ravens use multilasers... :D

[jeffersonian000]

Well, and Goto says that the Blood Ravens use multilasers... :D

 

Spaces Marines did use to have multi-lasers, thay just haven't since 2nd edition.

 

SJ

[Kaled100]

Spaces Marines did use to have multi-lasers, thay just haven't since 2nd edition.

And even though they haven't been able to take then in a codex since then, that doesn't mean they can't use them if the situation calls for it. I'm sure marines are trained in the use of all weapons and no doubt have all sorts of unusual things in their armoury that aren't used often enough to bother making them an option in the game.

 

Much as I don't really like the idea of the Exorcists having Grey Knight geneseed - I can't see much evidence against it. Grey Knight geneseed may have been unique when they were founded, but I can't just think of a source that says it still is. And members of the Ordo Malleus were involved in the founding of the Exorcists, so it's not entirely impossible they had access to their geneseed.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Much as I don't really like the idea of the Exorcists having Grey Knight geneseed - I can't see much evidence against it. Grey Knight geneseed may have been unique when they were founded, but I can't just think of a source that says it still is.

 

That's not exactly a good line of argument. By the same line of thought I could point out that the fluff doesn't say that Grey Knights still have gene-seed at all, just when they were founded. We just assume the status quo has not changed - we'd have been told if it was.

[Kaled100]

We just assume the status quo has not changed - we'd have been told if it was.

Well, you could say that we have been told - it says in the Heroes of the Space Marines that another chapter has Grey Knight geneseed. Does it actually say anywhere that Grey Knight geneseed actually is unique? I forget how the various statements are actually worded...

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Well, you could say that we have been told - it says in the Heroes of the Space Marines that another chapter has Grey Knight geneseed. Does it actually say anywhere that Grey Knight geneseed actually is unique? I forget how the various statements are actually worded...

 

From memory, the DH Codex goes like this: "Unlike <insert something about Space Marine founding>, the Grey Knights are unique in that their gene-seed is said by some to have come from the Emperor's flesh."

 

Again from memory, the relevant passage should be pages 6-7 of C:DH, the double-page spread on GK fluff.

 

Well, you could say that we have been told - it says in the Heroes of the Space Marines that another chapter has Grey Knight geneseed. Does it actually say anywhere that Grey Knight geneseed actually is unique? I forget how the various statements are actually worded...

 

By the same token, I could say we have been "told" otherwise that the GKs do not have gene-seed by Ben Counter omitting to mention it in at least one of his GK novels (the first one does contain an explicit reference though).

 

Then of course there's the whole BL canonicity debate.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Although there is the point that since the Exorcists were a fairly secret Ordo Malleus project (my belief is more radical members of the Ordo Malleus, but not radical enough that the Grey Knights didn't cooperate... or they weren't there to watch the Exorcists!), there certainly wouldn't be any public record as to which gene-seed they used. Likewise the whole possession/Illuminati thing isn't on public record as well :tu:

 

One interpretation of the passage in question is that the Grey Knights were unique in their gene-seed didn't come from a Primarch, but it is theorized it came from the Emperor. It's also possible that since the Exorcists were created just in time for one of the Wars of Armaggeddon, that it could be a more recent development than the time at which the quote is supposed to have taken place. Gotta love the discontinuity of fluff supplements in terms of dates!

 

And to be perfectly honest.. if you were an Inquisitor that somehow managed to get a hold of Grey Knight gene-seed to create your own experimental Chapter, would you go around blabbing about it? I thought not ^_^

[Kaled100]

From memory, the DH Codex goes like this: "Unlike <insert something about Space Marine founding>, the Grey Knights are unique in that their gene-seed is said by some to have come from the Emperor's flesh."

That only talks about the original source of their geneseed - that of the other chapters created around that time came from existing chapters, but that of the Grey Knights was different (unique) in that it may have come from the Emperor. It doesn't say that they are the only chapter to utilise that geneseed - the unique parts refers to the source of their geneseed, that it didn't come from one of the original legions.

 

Neither does the Index Astartes article say that their geneseed is unique - it says that 'Uniquely amongst the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, the Grey Knights Chapter has no antecedents, having been created from specifically engineered gene-seed.' Again, the unique part refers to the source of their geneseed - they had no antecedents, it doesn't say they have no successors. Of course, neither does it say that they had - but much as I dislike it, Heroes of the Space Marines says that they do, and I can't see that it contradicts the pre-existing canon (not that I've looked too far beyond the sources we've already discussed).

 

By the same token, I could say we have been "told" otherwise that the GKs do not have gene-seed by Ben Counter omitting to mention it in at least one of his GK novels (the first one does contain an explicit reference though).

That's not the same thing though - Heroes of the Space Marines explicitly tells us that the Exorcists have the same geneseed as the Grey Knights. Ben Counter never tells us that the Grey Knights don't have geneseed. But anyway, I suggest we drop this part of the debate and stick to a more reasoned debate of statements in the canon.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

That only talks about the original source of their geneseed - that of the other chapters created around that time came from existing chapters, but that of the Grey Knights was different (unique) in that it may have come from the Emperor. It doesn't say that they are the only chapter to utilise that geneseed - the unique parts refers to the source of their geneseed, that it didn't come from one of the original legions.

 

How can the source of their gene-seed be unique if someone else gets their gene-seed from the same source?

 

But anyway, I suggest we drop this part of the debate and stick to a more reasoned debate of statements in the canon.

 

I'm hesitant to, because it will immediately spiral off into a debate on BL and how canon it is.

 

Canon or not canon, as I see it Heroes of the Space Marines throws up a contradiction that still needs to be resolved one way or another by the official source - the Design Studio. So the fluff is currently in flux and nobody can really work out what's official for sure.

[ValourousHeart]

There is no reason you can't paint your GKs a color other than "grey". The GKs have had their colors altered by GW itself at least once since their inception. By all means: paint 'em red-n-gold if that suits your fancy.

 

If you're concerned about "fluff" to justify the coloring, perhaps the units in your army painted their armour so that they would resemble a nearby Astartes chapter. That way, on the off chance anybody survives, they'll just think they're seeing the Astartes.

 

And the best answer goes to Number 6.

It is quick and simple and to the point.

They are your minis, not a paint by number book.

If you want your Grey Knights to be any color but grey... so be it.

 

As for a fluff explanation as to why they are not grey....

Well take the explanation I have used for why my Ravenwing bikes all have the plastic plasma pistol bit instead of bolt pistols.

 

The real reason I used plasma pistols is because I like the look of that pistol bit better than the bolt pistol bit.

The longer sleek lines are more in line with the longer angles on the bikes.

In short it is just prettier to me that way.

 

My fluff reason entails enough detail until you notice their eyes glazing over, but goes something like this.

 

"Oh those are not plasma pistols, they are the mark iv bolt pistol.

The adepts made some significant improvements over the more common mark ii version that I see your troops are using.

 

First you'll notice the longer rifling, which makes it much more accurate at the extreme range.

This rifling also increases slightly its accuracy at shorter ranges, which does have its advantages for calvary style units.

As we both know driving at full speed over rocky terrain does have a negative impact on accuracy as compared to a braced position at a firing range, even considering our reinforced suspension and our extensive training for accuracy at high speeds.

 

The other improvements are in the weapon casing and ammunition.

I say improvement, but that is really only from a mission perspective as opposed to an operational superiority.

The weapon casing is made from composites instead of the alloys used in the mark ii version, giving a reduction in weight of about 37%.

 

But the real gem is the ammunition... incandescent burst case-less rounds.

within .99999 equivilent of the traditional bolt pistol shell in blow through power, but the shot capacity of one cartridge is 25% greater than an equivalently sized bolt pistol clip.

Additionally that cartridge is 31% lighter than that same bolt pistol clip.

 

Since our mission is one of long range reconnaissance all of these improvments mean we can go further and fight longer between resupply than we ever could before.

It also means that our support units are just as effective despite the fact that we are spread over a much larger region."

 

 

Yep all that BS just to fit my aesthetic preferences into someone else's paradigm of what a bolt pistol should look like.

Just make up a reason...

 

Take a clue from the new SW codex about their heroes gathering a warband around them and apply it to GK.

Fluff wise GK have multiple Grand Masters.... whereas normal marines only have one grand master per chapter.

So have your Grand Master with a couple of Brother Captains identified (good to have 5-6) and a couple of Justicars (2-3) named that may be promoted should they perform well in a couple of games.

And have the paint scheme be based on the Grand Master's personal heraldry.

 

*edit* spelling

[Kaled100]

How can the source of their gene-seed be unique if someone else gets their gene-seed from the same source?

The actual quote from the codex is;

'Where other Space Marine Chapters were created from the gene-seed of existing Chapters, the Grey Knights were unique in that their gene-seed was said by some to come from the Emperor's own flesh.'

 

That whole section of the codex is talking about the legends surrounding the time of the Second Founding - it only talks about the source of their gene-seed being unique at the time the Grey Knights were founded. It doesn't say or imply that their gene-seed is still unique, therefore I see no contradiction between that statements and Heroes. In fact, the word 'unique' only really applies to the part of that sentence about people saying that the Grey Knights gene-seed came from the Emperor - it doesn't say that their gene-seed is unique, just that the rumours are unique to the Grey Knights.

[Doomaflatchi]

I remember arguing loudly with my book when I got to that portion of Heroes of the Space Marines. In addition to it being unfluffy for the Grey Knights to have second-founding chapters (it destroys their coveted secrecy, their gene-seed paternity is uncertain, the specific nature and goal of their founding, etc.), I was also slightly annoyed by the idea of an entire chapter of Untouchables being born from gene-seed of a chapter completely comprised of psykers. It makes far more sense for them to have come from something like the Black Templars than the Grey Knights.

[Kaled100]

In addition to it being unfluffy for the Grey Knights to have second-founding chapters (it destroys their coveted secrecy

Does the Exorcist in Heroes know anything about the Grey Knights beyond their name? Anything that would really compromise their secrecy? And even if he does, does the rest of his chapter? And if they do know, does that really compromise the Grey Knights - especially given the relationship between the Exorcists and the Ordo Malleus? Although it has been said that the Imperium regularly executes/mind-wipes troops that come into contact with Chaos, that policy is not always carried out so there are people who know of the Grey Knights.

 

I was also slightly annoyed by the idea of an entire chapter of Untouchables being born from gene-seed of a chapter completely comprised of psykers.

It's my understanding that the Grey Knights being psykers is due to the stock from which they are recruited rather than their geneseed, thus I don't see a problem with a successor chapter not being psykers. Also, I thought that the Exorcists resistance to the influence of Chaos was due to their peculiar training methods rather than them being proper untouchables.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Does the Exorcist in Heroes know anything about the Grey Knights beyond their name? Anything that would really compromise their secrecy?

 

Yes. It immediately gives birth to the question "Who are the Grey Knights?". Without the name, there is no hint of their existence and nothing to trigger curiosity.

 

It's my understanding that the Grey Knights being psykers is due to the stock from which they are recruited rather than their geneseed, thus I don't see a problem with a successor chapter not being psykers.

 

Yeah, as far as we know the GKs' psychic abilities come from their highly psychic recruits (albeit trained and honed). The only augmentation I've ever heard of is the rumour that GKTs undergo the Soul Binding.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Keep in mind that the 'untouchable' theory goes back to the Star Child and the Illuminati fluff. If becoming an Illuminati by being possessed then casting out the daemon affects one psychic ability, then the possession ritual of part of the Exorcists chapter would require them to be psykers to be possessed and cast it out. It would be acquired Untouchableness as opposed to inherant genetics.

[gil galed]

Saying the exorcists were GK geneseed was a ridiculous statement for them to make and is why you have to take all BL with a pinch of salt if you want to maintain even a semblance of continuity in GW Fluff. Even if you do take the orwellian approach (which is very good).

 

Really it comes down to: Why would they make a new chapter from GK stock when the GK themselves arn't limited by numbers and have a better source or armour and weapons?

 

On colour go for whatever you want, no reason GK might choose to do something else, they used to be black if memory serves

 

edit: on a side not reading the lexi article for them it discusses how some of them fall to chaos etc. after their demon binding sessions, why both with all that binding etc. on GKs when no GK has ever fallen, again you might as well make GKs not exorcists