Dual Plasma squad or Sonic Blaster Noise Marines

[minigun762]

A few people (Chillin + Zhukov) have said that they've had good success with Rhino-less dual Plasma squads (either CSMs or PM). These squads run right around 190 points and are usually used to hold objectives and provide some long(er) range firepower.

 

I've thought about another unit that could do the job, maybe even better and thats an 8 man Sonic Blaster Noise Marine squad. Comes out at 200 points even which makes it quite comparable with the Plasma squads.

 

Mobility: Noise Marines win here, since they can move and shoot out to 24" and can move/shoot/assault more effectively.

Leadership: Noise Marines barely beat out CSMs (assuming they have IoCG) and same as PM. Not a big difference either way.

Durability: PM/CSM squads win. T5/FnP or more bodies are all better.

Assault: I'd say its a tie. CSMs have the numbers, PM have the durability and NM have I5. Its too situational to declare a winner.

Firepower: This is the big ? to me. I will run the numbers tomorrow, but what you can easily see is that the NM will put out more anti-infantry firepower but lack the higher S punch of the Plasma. This means they will suffer against armor and MCs.

 

Anyway, would you consider it a viable squad or is the lack of high S weapons too much of a drawback?

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Well, I'd say it depends on the rest of the build.

 

In most cases, if you made me choose, dual plas.

[Night Lord Dred]

Why not 10 CSM with an autocannon if youre going to do that? 48" instead of 24". Lose the AP2 value, but lose gets hot as well.

[Corpse.]

I prefer a rhino with the noise marines to capitalize on their "storm bolters while moving". Keep the wall of "cover" and fire in a different direction to minimally exposed troops. Since its low AP and the enemy is often in cover, the whole squad only has to see one enemy model to make full use of it in most cases.

 

I prefer 6-7 models since that is much easier to hide behind a rhino completely.

[Possessed Marine]

could always go with the NM's and give one of 'em a blastmaster for anti-tank punch 5 sb & 1 blast =185pts

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Blastmasters are really very bad for anti tank

[the jeske]

+ you have a 6 man squad that dies real fast has no extra bodies and is neither good at anti horde /anti meq and anti tank . a 8 man SB unit at least is good at forcing saves on special guys and does enough shots to [sometimes , to be sure that happens one would have to play a NM x3 unit build] to do something to horde.

 

the real question is are NM [one unit] needed in a normal chaos list ? does a normal chaos list need anti horde and anti meq ? i would say no. are we rdy to be unable to counter MC[and nids dex is just around corner] , drop dreads etc to get some more shots or do we have the points to give those 8 man unit a asp with a fist[and even then its not like its a 100% viable counter] ?plasma units do good because they can double tap a deep strike unit , they can[am not saying they will] stun a dread or at least tar pit it , even from 24" away they can take pot shots at MC etc . NM are more limited they are good at forcing a lot of saves on a meq unit and that is more or less it .

[minigun762]

I said I would kick out some numbers, just as a comparison and here they are. 10 CSMs/2 Plasma (since its more firepower then the PM) vs 8 SB Noise Marines.

Its going to be static firepower at 24" and rapid fire vs fire/assault since those seem like the most likely situations you're going to be in.

I'll compare it for Guardmen, Marines, Terminators and a MC (Daemon Prince) to get an idea and we'll assume no cover save to keep things easy.

 

Plasma CSM squad static

vs GEQ = 4.7

vs MEQ = 2

vs TEQ = 1.2

vs DP = 1.3

 

SB Noise Marines squad static

vs GEQ = 8

vs MEQ = 2.6

vs TEQ = 1.3

vs DP = 1.8

 

Plasma CSM squad rapid fire

vs GEQ = 9.4

vs MEQ = 4

vs TEQ = 2.5

vs DP = 2.7

 

SB Noise Marines squad shoot/assault

vs GEQ = 14.2

vs MEQ = 3.8

vs TEQ = 1.9

vs DP = 2.5

 

Conclusion: Across the board, Noise Marines pumping out 3 shots is superior to CSMs pumping out 1 shot, even with 2 Plasma. Once you are within rapid fire/assault range though, the Plasma makes it easier to take out bigger targets while the Sonic Blasters do a number on lighter infantry but overall I would say they're about the same.

[Corpse.]

Units in the middle of the table, following what rhinos/vehicles around (raider, maybe) moving the rhino just enough so that the (most or whole) unit can see one enemy model and fire.

 

I've used it plenty of times. 6 models, rhino that blocks them entirely from the majority of enemy firepower. The rhino always moves or tilts a little to reveal one enemy model from a unit at a time to fire. If something happens to the rhino (short of exploding), the NM can move around to reveal the enemy models on their own. Immobilised or wrecked, its still blocking line of sight.

 

It was my re-do of the tactics I used with lash, pushing all but one or two enemy models out of LoS (if the unit didn't become pinned by the power first) having my whole unit not have to move and waste the enemy with 3 shots a marine.

 

I remember 6 havocs, 4 heavy bolters = 150, same as 6 noise marines with sonic blasters all came out with similar numbers in killing most infantry, except for 4+ save units of course. Havocs had range and 2 ablative wounds, but the NM could fire on the move. So I always considered 6 NM as 6 havocs with 4HB to an extent.

[Atheist]

I'm going to have to disagree on the "rhino-less"detail .

 

With that much mobile ( drop pods etc ) armies nowadays they're as good as dead , really soon .

[Brother Amarel]

I'm going to have to disagree on the "rhino-less"detail .

 

With that much mobile ( drop pods etc ) armies nowadays they're as good as dead , really soon .

7 PM's still survive quite well - especially if the rest of your army is making nuisance of itself. If my opponent wants to concentrate his focus on my non-Oblit backfield while the rest of my army surges forward in their Rhino's, I'm all for that.

[Possessed Marine]

Blastmasters are really very bad for anti tank

 

 

True, but still a little better than plasma's... just trowing out a number that is comparable with the price of the dual plas squad that still had at least 1 high strength shot... of course I personally would prefer a lascannon for anti-tank purposes...

 

+ you have a 6 man squad that dies real fast has no extra bodies and is neither good at anti horde /anti meq and anti tank . a 8 man SB unit at least is good at forcing saves on special guys and does enough shots to [sometimes , to be sure that happens one would have to play a NM x3 unit build] to do something to horde.

 

agree, but like I said... just throwing out a comparable price

[Atheist]

I'm going to have to disagree on the "rhino-less"detail .

 

With that much mobile ( drop pods etc ) armies nowadays they're as good as dead , really soon .

7 PM's still survive quite well - especially if the rest of your army is making nuisance of itself. If my opponent wants to concentrate his focus on my non-Oblit backfield while the rest of my army surges forward in their Rhino's, I'm all for that.

 

I wasn't thinking about pm's , you are right if we're talking only about pm's .

 

Although the - much hated - daemonic flamers will still eat them up . God I hate this unit .

[Requiemnex]

I have recently seen the insane daemon flamer effect. Curious what people are doing to counter it? I just keep my guys in a rhino until the last second.

[the jeske]

I have recently seen the insane daemon flamer effect. Curious what people are doing to counter it? I just keep my guys in a rhino until the last secon

you play mecha . put oblits and termicid in reserves. demons will be on table turn 2 . you dont have to sit inside the rhinos for the whole game .

[minigun762]

I'm really feeling that Sonic Blaster Noise Marines could be something special if used properly. The ability to move/fire/assault to full effect seems very powerful if you can properly support them with anti-tank weapons. Plus they aren't useless in HtH combat which is a plus. Sure I5 isn't always helpful, but when you see that Marines and Eldar are two of the most common armies out there, its not a bad bonus to have.

[Corpse.]

Plenty of occasions I removed a dreadnoughts melee arm because of I5 krak grenades. Don't forget that one.

[The WarpGhost]

I would go with the NM in pure gaming terms; what the dual-plas CSM squad has in advantages are minimal, whereas vice versa the NM's are substantial.

[Possessed Marine]

I'm really feeling that Sonic Blaster Noise Marines could be something special if used properly. The ability to move/fire/assault to full effect seems very powerful if you can properly support them with anti-tank weapons. Plus they aren't useless in HtH combat which is a plus. Sure I5 isn't always helpful, but when you see that Marines and Eldar are two of the most common armies out there, its not a bad bonus to have.

 

agree, there's GOT to be something special about this type of squad

[minigun762]

I remember 6 havocs, 4 heavy bolters = 150, same as 6 noise marines with sonic blasters all came out with similar numbers in killing most infantry, except for 4+ save units of course. Havocs had range and 2 ablative wounds, but the NM could fire on the move. So I always considered 6 NM as 6 havocs with 4HB to an extent.

 

Thats an interesting comparison Corpse, though I'd bring it up to an 8 man squad to match the points.

This topic has made me wonder something.

How important is ranged anti-infantry firepower to Chaos? We typically excel at killing enemy infantry within 12" due to Bolters/Flamers and 2 attacks, so do we really need to load up on infantry weapons for 24"+ shooting? Consider this in light of the new Tyranid rumors as well as the fact that 2 of the best codex (IG and Orks) can easily push 100+ models in a normal game.

[Corpse.]

Grey Knight = Sonic Blaster Noise Marine

 

S.NM: 2 shots, assault, 3 attacks I5 (VsT4) = 1.41 wounds (0.5 wounds with melee only, no charge, strikes first)

GK: 2 shots, assault, 2 attacks str6 (Vs T4) = 1.49 wounds (0.83 wounds with melee only)

 

.... Putting aside the rhino and frag grenade advantage NM have.

 

10 NM vs 10 GK, just 10x the above math. Except if the NM had the charge advantage, all the damage comes through before GK get to strike. GK maintain the same melee charge or no charge which is above the NM in subsequent assault phases, but however lack the +1 shot while standing still.

 

 

So as NM, you are a technical Havoc squad, and you are a GK unit (with a transport and powerfist option+frags).

[the jeske]

... Putting aside the rhino and frag grenade advantage NM have.

and ws5 and a str 6 power weapon on justicar striking at I .