Daemonhunters vs. Necrons =][=Mark up a win!=][=

[ntgcleaner]

So, I went to a local GW store (Off of hunting ave in Covina [?]) for the first time last night and brought my pieces along just in case. Wouldn't you know it, I got to mark up a win on my personal battle board. Before that day, I had only had four battles, all against Tau, all losses. I play a Daemonhunter Army.

 

Before I went to the store, I called to make sure of times and if anyone was actually playing. I talked to the manager on the phone and he assured me that I could at the very least come and watch some gameplay. I picked up my pieces and headed down to the store. When I got there, I was greeted by the manager and he introduced me to the 10+ people that were there. I was taken in kindly and started watching some of the games going on. While I was talking to people, they were checking out my fully painted army and they were giving me advice on how to play against certain types of armies. I let them know it would be my first game against anything but Tau if I were able to play.

 

One of the regulars there came up to me and told me that he had a list for 1000 points that he would love to play against me. I thought it was great. As I said before, I hadn't played anything but Tau and this kid played Necrons. I was fairly weary of the fact that they are a pretty shooty army compared to my slow assaulty army and thought it would be another game vs a tau-like army.

 

Here's the quick lists before I go on:

 

Daemonhunters

BC with 4 Termies and an Inquisitor in Termie armor attached

2x 5 GK

1x Land Raider

1x Callidus Assassin

 

Necrons(I think)

necron lord with res orb

2x 12? necron warriors

1x heavy destroyer

1x monolith

4x necron destroyers

12x scarabs

 

We roll and I gain initiative and go first. (I don't remember everything from every turn, so I will just say the highlights. I appologize in advance because I have no idea what his units are called.)

 

Before the first turn, I use my Callidus assassin's "word in your ear" and move his heavy destroyer 6" closer to me. I move 6" with all of my units, including my Land Raider and was able to fire my TLLC's at him and demolish the destroyer right off the bat. The other units weren't in range of anything else, so I ran, end of my turn.

 

His turn (1) and my next turn (2), nothing happens (I rolled a 3 to bring in the assassin. fail.). His second turn, he deep strikes his Lord with res orb and some Necron Warriors near me and scatters even closer to me. He takes a shot at my unit that is not in the Land raider and takes out 4/5 Gray Knights (I think).

 

My turn (3) I pivot my Land Raider and disembark my 5 gray knights. Both squads move up, both squads of Gray Knights fire, I take out 3 of his warriors and have one wound on the lord. I then assault and kill enough of his warriors (and destroy his Lord) that they try to fall back. They failed the test and the entire unit was destroyed. (Wow, I didn't know I could do that!)

I used my terminators to shoot his scarabs and two of them die. I was able to bring in my assassin but I did not realize that any and every necron has Ld.10. My neural shredder was basically useless. I was able to take out one of his guys out of the 10 that fit under the template. Assault wasn't much different. I believe I only scored two kills. I survived the assault phase and poison blades failed.

 

His turn (3) he moved his scarabs up into base contact with my Land Raider and with all 30 (?) attacks, he managed to take out two weapons and immobilize it. (Both of the TLLC's were out of commission) Unfortunately, because of the last turns pivot, it left my heavy bolter facing the wrong way. He killed my assassin with his assault, took out two terminators and I believe that's it.

 

My turn (4) I assaulted his scarabs with my terminators, and both gray knights squads. I believe I wiped them out. Nothing else really happened.

 

His turns (4 and 5 and my turn's 5 and 6) were basically whittling down my numbers. It was all pretty hazy. At the very end, last turn, I had one terminator left and that's it. I assaulted his last unit (I believe there were 6 left) I killed two (33%), he was running back and failed the test (? I'm still pretty new to this) and that unit was destroyed, which meant I made him phase out (he needed 5 on the board, he only had 4 left in another squad). We were playing annihilation and I don't think we were playing victory points so I won! I think that's how it happened. The other possibility was that he needed 13 on the board and he had 10 necron warriors (and four destroyers), I killed two warriors which left him with 12 necrons all together and then he phased out. I can't remember, there was so much going on and a lot of talking and explaining going on.

 

I had a bunch of people around helping me out on how to play the game (not my strategies, just the gameplay) and they all said I won! I really appreciate all of their help (If they read this) and I really need to thank the guy I played for helping me out with everything and putting me in my first real game, I really appreciate it! (The one's against Tau were mainly learning games)

[Inquisitor Fox]

Congrats on your first win with the Inquisition! We've got challenging armies to play, but I think you'll find the experience quite rewarding as well :) I can't give a lot of comments in terms of your game, as while I've used a few Grey Knight units individually I tend to run a Witch Hunters force with an allied unit of Termies as opposed to a full Daemon Hunters army. However, I do have a couple thoughts!

 

First, is the Land Raider is an exceptionally good choice for small games. Some people might complain about it being overpowered... ignore them. It's really your only viable tank option for both transport and anti-tank firepower. My second thought is at this small of a points level, you might be able to play without the Inquisitor and Assassin (*gasp* Did I just really mention that? I love my Inquisitors...) in an effort to bulk the numbers of 'regular' Grey Knights, and add some Psycannons or Incinerators in there. Incinerators will help against swarm type bases and a lot of lightly armored horde armies (if your style is more aggressive), and Psycannons are.. well.. just all kinds of awesome. Typically people recommend putting the Psycannons on the Terminators, as due to the rules they can move and still fire them as a heavy weapon with a 36" range. If they're on the regular Grey Knights they are only the 18" assault version if you moved that turn and still want to fire.

 

Assassins are a lot of fun, but in my own experience smaller scale games are about having more troops on the table than a few fancy models. However, feel free to totally ignore it and just have fun! At the beginning, it's about fun and learning what your forces can and cannot do and trying out new things rather than doing what someone else advised you :P

 

After you get some more games under your belt, I highly recommend the The way of the water warrior thread up at the top. It will make significantly more sense after you've got some games in and a feel for how Warhammer 40K works. Until then, have fun and welcome to the Inquisition!

[number6]

Ditto everything our esteemed Inquisitor has said. :)

 

Double ditto on the "Welcome!" You've landed in the right place.

 

Beyond Way of the Water Warrior, there are a couple of other superb DH/GK tacticas stored in the Online Resources topic pinned at the top. Though still relevant, they were written with 4th edition 40K in mind. The most current set of tactical discussions for 5th edition can be found in the Hunting daemons topic.

 

Finally, don't worry too much about losing to Tau. Those filthy Xenos are paper-thin but quick and tricksy and never seem to run out of guns to shoot at you. I play both armies, and to be honest, the Tau are rather stronger. But if you're going to continue playing Tau regularly, you'll want to seriously consider the advice in "Hunting daemons" as well as the wonderful world of IG induction to help you out some.

[ntgcleaner]

Thank you! it has been extremely challenging, especially keeping my head up after all of the losses on the Tau, I still have fun.

 

I love running the land raider in these smaller games because it makes the opponent think "What do I have thats S8 and how do I get it there". Then they basically have to dedicate one or two of their units to taking out that tank and it keeps more fire off of my regular PAGK's, it's also a great cover save to keep them infront of any of my units. So, yes, I agree, I think it is extremely viable.

 

The assassin was exactly that, a fun unit. that could be another 120 + ~20 for the inquisitor that I have to take which means I could take almost another entire squad of Pagk's or maybe even mech more with a CC walker. I had some good attacks with it against the Tau player, but I didn't realize (after I placed my piece and was looking over the template to see how many I could hit) that the Nec's had ld10 which basically ruined my entire plan. Oh well, Live and learn.

 

It was a great game to play! before this, I was contemplating on whether or not to store my DH army until the new codex and hopefully new pieces come out. I even bought a battle box of another army (to remain nameless!) just to have fun painting again.

 

I kept hearing that the DH were amazing in assault... but WOW did I ever underestimate that.

 

I have entirely read the Way of the Water Warrior, though, now I can go back and actually UNDERSTAND it! Thank you for that suggestion too, I need to start reading again! I may even re-paint or touch up some of my DH units... So many possibilities!

[Justicar Valius]

Congrats on winning, but on another point is that your standard list or a the list you made to face the necrons?

If standard you may want to try to find some 5 man IST with 2 meltas in a rhino at higher points levels :) As most would tell you they are the staple unit of DH now

[ntgcleaner]

Thank you Number6, I don't believe I have read the hunting daemons yet. That should be a great read! And yes, Those filthy Tau, haha. I feel like if I can beat him, the possibilities would be endless!

 

I have always wanted to have a Puritan army, I actually have never thought of or even liked the idea of inducting other armies. I know it is a viable way to play, though I think, if I chose Daemonhunters as an army, then Daemonhunters it will be. Plus, they do just look badass and are very intimidating face to face to any army!

 

I forgot to mention also, one of the store employees challenged me to a quick 250 pt (1HQ and 1troop) match, we both had 6 models on the table and I destroyed him by the end of turn 3 in assault. He was even using space wolves, who I hear are supposed to be great in assault as well. We fired at eachother for a turn and a half and he then assaulted me on his second turn (we started close together because it needed to be a quick game) He took out my Brother captain with Daemonhammer and my other 2 that he was in range of shrugged off hits. Then it was my turn, I fired (because I was far enough away after the assault) and then assaulted. He lost a couple, rolled and failed. Entire unit was wiped clean with 5 Gray Knights. That was another fun game, though I wont count it as a win because it was just a quick fun game.

[Inquisitor Fox]

You may want to consider the Inquisitorial Storm Trooper units that Justicar Valis recommended. I run typically 1 to 2 10-strong ISTs in my armies with either grenade launchers or meltaguns, and they constantly impress me with how capable they are. I plan on them not doing a lot, and then they constantly exceed my expectation of adequacy ;) Most people tend to underestimate them, and at 2 or 3 ISTs at the same price as 1 Grey Knight, they certainly help out with the short on troops aspect of things!

[ntgcleaner]

Justicar Valius, that actually was just a standard list. It was even tailored a bit more towards the Tau, though, I tried to make it an allcomers list. I do have a rhino, though I don't have my IST's yet. They are special order from the hobby shop I go to so I am waiting for them to come in. I do, however, have the squad of 10 kadian storm troopers (?) that look almost the same and two of them have flamers. I just feel like that rhino is so weak that I will lose all ~110 points very quickly in the game, especially if there is little cover. I also have to find out what the IST's are REALLY good at. More assault? or more shoot? I know the flamers are awesome for horde armies and I can't wait to play one!

 

Quick edit to catch up:

 

Inquisitor NicolePyykkonen, After posting this message, then seeing your second message, with the two of you confirming that IST's are good choices, I feel that I absolutely NEED them in my armies now. Would you both suggest something like 2x 10 IST's both with a rhino transport? (i dont have my codex, can a rhino carry 10?) how many meltas and other things should they carry?

 

also, should a rhino go open topped? I have been reading about how they can melta out of 3 spots? is this wrong? because I thought there was only one firing port on a rhino.

 

EDIT - Fixed ~ INP

[Inquisitor Fox]

A quick glance at the IST's statline helps with that evaluation, you'll notice a decided improvement with their BS over their WS. Thus, they're going to be better at shooting. When you consider their average S, T and armor value, I'd definately keep them out of a fight when possible and prefer shooting. That being said, I still give my sergeant a power weapon just in case :lol: There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the Cadian Kasrkin models to represent Storm Troopers, in fact 2 of my 4 squads are the newer Kasrkin models, the other 2 are the older Imperial Storm Trooper models.

 

Most Inquisition players tend to use IST's as anti-armor units with meltaguns. I use them in pairs, one squad with meltas, the other squad with grenade launchers helping cover the squad with meltas ;) Also plasma guns seem to be pretty popular as well. I don't hear a lot of stories about IST's with flamers, possibly because the incinerator is so much better.

 

EDIT: I don't know why I always want to write plasma rifles instead of plasma guns... I blame X-Com!

[ntgcleaner]

so, 2x10 IST, one of the groups have 2 meltas, the other has 2 grenade launchers? I need to start reading up on them. I'm not sure if you saw the post before, asking about the open top rhino. Is that still up for debate? or has it been deemed unnecessary?

[Inquisitor Fox]

If you are going straight from the Codex, then you are bound by that open topped clause. If you utilize the optional IA2 (Imperial Armour, volume 2: Space Marines and Forces of the Inquisition) v1.3 update downloadable from ForgeWorld, then you have the new standard Rhinos and you don't have to worry about it. Technically though that's a with opponent's/tournament organizer's permission thing. I actually have never used a Rhino (I know, shocker!) so am not very familiar with how their fire points work out :)

[ntgcleaner]

I actually have never used a Rhino (I know, shocker!)

 

I have never heard of such a thing with IST's! That really is a shocker! So you footslog them the entire way? that's deadly! Wow, my head is swimming with some ideas... Once I correlate them to something useful, I'll see what you guys think about them.

 

Also, I just read your promotion Inquisitor NicolePyykkonen! Congratulations! I hope someday I may be able to help out the youth of the inquisition, such as myself, the way you have been doing!

[number6]

I just feel like that rhino is so weak that I will lose all ~110 points very quickly in the game, especially if there is little cover.

[...]

so, 2x10 IST, one of the groups have 2 meltas, the other has 2 grenade launchers? I need to start reading up on them. I'm not sure if you saw the post before, asking about the open top rhino. Is that still up for debate? or has it been deemed unnecessary?

Rhinos are "weak", but you need them to protect your assets. Both the assets actually inside the Rhino chassis AND the stuff you're screening with those Rhinos. For example, it isn't hard to give your land raider(s) cover saves with Rhinos as screens. You can shield infantry you have on the ground with mobile Rhino walls.

 

Mechanizing with cheap transports gives your army options. You can move. You can bunker. You can stack a flank and speed down it in a hurry. And they have to be dealt with before your infantry can be touched. Even thin armour is better than no armour, yes? :D

 

And if you are mechanizing, what do you think your opponents are doing? So you need to carry in your own army the tools to "de-mech" your average opponent. After all, your opponent will have thought of all these things, too, yes? :P

 

ISTs solve both issues. Using them lets you mechanize your DH army AND bring the anti-armour tools you need. You will have noted that GKs don't carry any weaponry really suited to anti-armour duty. They're all about anti-infantry, either shooting or assault.

 

Assaults with S6 weapons isn't really anti-armour. First, you have to able to get to your enemy armour. Why would any enemy let you do that when their vehicles are faster than your ability to walk/run up to it? And second, even if you do get close, your opponent should be smart enough to keep moving so you only hit on 6s. You need a big unit of GKs to average a useful damage result under these circumstances. So shooting is where it's at! And GKs don't shoot down armour. :) Meanwhile, you're on the ground and the enemy can just shoot shoot shoot at you while you chase tanks around. Not really what GKs are supposed to be doing.

 

So, ISTs it is! And you need to take as many as you can to mitigate the weaknesses of the rest of the DH army. So I always think, for the DH, you should take them in units of 5 with 2x meltas and a Rhino. It's as cheap as can be so you can take 2, 3, or even 4 such units. The more Rhinos you have, the more difficult it will be for any enemy to stop you from using those Rhinos to get where you want to go. You're diluting his firepower by spamming targets. And with all those meltas, you'll be in great shape to slag enemy armour and expose the juicy infantry inside to death blows from your GKs. Meanwhile, you cheap li'l IST units are scoring units, so your enemy really has to destroy them in order to remove their utility from your army. That is extra protection for GKs, land raiders, etc.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Thus far I've had to foot slog as I just don't own a lot of transports yet (stupid budget!). To be honest, I only own um..9 Vehicles at all.. a land raider, chimera, 5 sentinels, a tau hammerhead, and a scratch built warhound titan. However, I decided I was going to mechanize my ISTs in chimeras and valkyries (utilizing the IA2 update I discussed earlier). With my Sisters of Battle I was going to utilize repressors (IA2) and immolators. So.. yeah, no rhinos :) Just kinda worked out that way. The one benefit of not having transports of course, is it lets me buy a lot more infantry... :P Loads of fun in a city fight sort of table with lots of terrain.

 

I definately recommend considering number6's comments as he's played an actual Daemon Hunters army for a while, I just pitch hit for them with my experience using them with my Witch Hunters army (which has a lot of the same common units). :D

[ntgcleaner]

The more Rhinos you have, the more difficult it will be for any enemy to stop you from using those Rhinos to get where you want to go.

 

For some reason, I have never associated "more models on the table" with larger units like rhino's. That comment right there made a light turn on in my head... though, now my thought is, if all of these rhinos/IST's lets say around 150 pts a piece with three units of these, thats 450 points dedicated MOSTLY - and I say mostly because I know IST's can at least shoot at enemy infantry - for armor. Though, if we say that the enemy gears up the same way I do because of this, then I have more of a point to use these IST's, BUT that also means more weapons to destroy me. it's a win/win/lose/lose it seems. I'm sure if I plow my way up the field with my three rhinos (lets just say a 1500 pt game) and maybe a LR and/or LRC, I would assume the enemy is going to take down his biggest threat / easiest target (biggest threat over easiest target) which could mean many things. I could keep going, but I believe it just loops around in the never ending story called Theoryhammer "FAAALLCCCOOORRRR" -The Never Ending Story

 

Anyways, it almost seems that I should take maybe only two rhinos (if we assume the scenario above) to give me more points to spend on my 5Packs (min. squad of PAGK's) or even more Land Raiders which would be an even more tempting target to take down.

 

I guess it's all theory on paper and rolls on the board. We won't really have a definite answer until all of the scenarios are played out. -Write that down. ^_^

[number6]

Meltas are actually great anti-infantry weapons, too, though! I emphasize their anti-armour duties because that is where the DH army needs the most help. Without those IST meltas, you're down to a sprinkling of lascannon shots ... and you just can't buy enough of them to matter if you're playing pure DH (let alone pure GK).

 

Think about all the heavy infantry and monstrous creatures that exist in the game. Those are perfect targets for meltas. Even average space marines make excellent targets for meltas. Get yourself a pair of Rhinos with ISTs loaded up. Drive up and form a V with a very narrow opening, too narrow for your enemy to assault through. Dismount a unit and kill a couple of Marines. He can't get you. Embark again, shift to account for enemy movement, make another V, dismount the other IST unit and slag a couple more Marines. Rinse, lather, repeat.

 

And don't forget to coordinate this with the rest of your army, of course. Doing what I'm talking about in total isolation isn't necessarily going to work out like this. ;)

 

But the point is, meltas are perfect for near-guaranteed wounds on your enemy. De-mech them, then melt down the infantry that was hiding inside.

 

And meltas are assault weapons. This is very important, because it means you can kill of couple of enemy models and then assault them! Obviously, ISTs can't be expected to win many such encounters, but that isn't the point. The point is to bog the opponent down for a turn -- maybe more -- while you position the rest of the army. 5 ISTs do pretty well against just a few basic Marines, for example. Gang up a couple of IST units on some depleted enemy and you might even win such combats. Why let those Marines run around with their own flamers and meltas? Answer: don't. ;)

 

Rhinos make this kind of mobility and tactical variety possible. You control where and how to engage the enemy.

 

You seem worried about an arms race. In a way, that's exactly why you need to invest in your basic IST core for every DH army. Without that core, you're left behind in the arm's race. The enemy will dictate to you how you will die and you won't have much say about it.

 

But if your opponent hasn't cottoned on to how valuable a mechanized army is, you haven't wasted points on your ISTs and meltas and Rhinos. You will dominate the game because you are in control.

 

+++++

 

Now step back a minute and imagine yourself facing the new Tyranids in just 4 week's time. This army will be fast, and it will be brutal. If you don't have rides for all your infantry -- GKs included! -- do you really think you'll have the ability to survive the ravening hordes of bugs that will be coming your way? With Rhinos and land raider crusaders, you at least have some firepower and ability to set up roadblocks and traps to slow the enemy advance. Without them ... you're just biomass for The Great Devourer.

[ntgcleaner]

Well guys, I took your advice! I played another game with this Tau friend that I kept losing to and I won! I used a Rhino with 10x IST's w/2 melta guns. Granted he made a couple big mistakes... I beat him on KP's 6-4 in 6 turns! look for my soon-to-come battle report against the Tau!

[Inquisitor Fox]

Congrats and excellent news! I look forward to reading the new Battle Report :)

[ntgcleaner]

I have you and Number6 to thank! You guys really made me see the benefits of the IST's and WOW what a benefit! The battle report is POSTED!