Krak Missile

[MechSpacewulf]

OK, in this game I had a Razorback with a krak missile mounted on it that got immobilized (see video)

 

 

The Vandetta (counts as) is on the RB's left at 90 degrees and my opponent argues that I can not shoot in that direction due to the mounting of the weapon aiming forward. I had TLOS and can recall many games where he had taken many similar shots but to keep the game moving and to keep things fun I did not push the arguement. So what is the official ruling here my battle Brothers. Next time I will just balance it facing straight up so I do not have to worry about any whinning.

[thade]

OK, in this game I had a Razorback with a krak missile mounted on it that got immobilized (see video)

 

 

The Vandetta (counts as) is on the RB's left at 90 degrees and my opponent argues that I can not shoot in that direction due to the mounting of the weapon aiming forward. I had TLOS and can recall many games where he had taken many similar shots but to keep the game moving and to keep things fun I did not push the arguement. So what is the official ruling here my battle Brothers. Next time I will just balance it facing straight up so I do not have to worry about any whinning.

It's not "pintle-mounted" so if it's on top it's turret mounted, which means a 360 degree firing arc.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

The Vandetta (counts as) is on the RB's left at 90 degrees and my opponent argues that I can not shoot in that direction due to the mounting of the weapon aiming forward. I had TLOS and can recall many games where he had taken many similar shots but to keep the game moving and to keep things fun I did not push the arguement

Firstly, I'm not sure if that shot is legal or not. Whilst it's not Pintle-Mounted, it IS fixed in place. I personally would say it IS fixed.

 

Secondly, shame on him for enforcing a rule he doesn't follow himself. I can recall instances where I have interpreted the rule differently (by accident), but my opponent has called me on it and I have accepted that and gone with how he wants to play it. More often than not, it's lost me a unit or kept one of his alive, but, in the spirit of the game, it was worth it.

 

Thirdy, good for you not pushing it. Spirit of the game is often better than winning.

[Ignatius]

It's modelled as fixed so it's fire arc is 45 degrees to the front. If it was mounted on a cupola or on the turret it would be 360 degrees.

 

There are different types of mounts.

 

Fixed - Example the rhino storm bolter is fixed when not mounted on the capola - 45

Cupola - Example most imperial vehicles have capola mounts such as the multi-melta on the land raider redeemer/crusader - 360

Hull mounted - Such as the Assault cannons or heavy bolters on a landraider - 90

Turret - The leman russ has a turret mounted weapon - 360

 

 

I

[Shas'o R'Vre]

There are different types of mounts.

 

Fixed - Example the rhino storm bolter is fixed when not mounted on the capola - 45

Cupola - Example most imperial vehicles have capola mounts such as the multi-melta on the land raider redeemer/crusader - 360

Hull mounted - Such as the Assault cannons or heavy bolters on a landraider - 90

Turret - The leman russ has a turret mounted weapon - 360

Err... that's four. And you forgot sponsons.

[Ignatius]

There are different types of mounts.

 

Fixed - Example the rhino storm bolter is fixed when not mounted on the capola - 45

Cupola - Example most imperial vehicles have capola mounts such as the multi-melta on the land raider redeemer/crusader - 360

Hull mounted - Such as the Assault cannons or heavy bolters on a landraider - 90

Turret - The leman russ has a turret mounted weapon - 360

Err... that's four. And you forgot sponsons.

 

Is there more on a vehicle (not including walkers and the like)? Sponsons don't have a fire arc persay they rotate as far as the gun will allow, so a landraider or predator has a better fire arc on their sponsons than a leman russ, due to the way the stock model is, of course you can change this if you wish so the russ has a better arc. It's not just a simple 180 degrees to the side, the rule draw line of sight from the weapon dictates this in the BBB.

 

I

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Is there more on a vehicle (not including walkers and the like)?

Don't understand this question. There are no more weapon types if that's what you mean.

 

Sponsons don't have a fire arc persay they rotate as far as the gun will allow, so a landraider or predator has a better fire arc on their sponsons than a leman russ, due to the way the stock model is, of course you can change this if you wish so the russ has a better arc. It's not just a simple 180 degrees to the side, the rule draw line of sight from the weapon dictates this in the BBB.

Fair enough, just thought i'd put it out there.

 

Also, slightly off topic, but could you have Russ sponsons that face backwards?

Rules legal from what I can tell, but rear facing plasma cannons on demolishers could really deter termicide squads :P

[Deus de Mortalis]

It's modelled as fixed so it's fire arc is 45 degrees to the front. If it was mounted on a cupola or on the turret it would be 360 degrees.

 

There are different types of mounts.

 

Fixed - Example the rhino storm bolter is fixed when not mounted on the capola - 45

Cupola - Example most imperial vehicles have capola mounts such as the multi-melta on the land raider redeemer/crusader - 360

Hull mounted - Such as the Assault cannons or heavy bolters on a landraider - 90

Turret - The leman russ has a turret mounted weapon - 360

 

 

I

 

Close, but hull mounted weapons are the same thing as fixed weapons and they only have a 45 degree firing arc. The other mountings are turrets and pintle mounts, which each get 360 degrees unless blocked by the model itself, and sponsons, which vary depending on the model. I personally think that modifying a model to increase the firing arcs of its sponson or hull mounted weapons is most definitely cheating.

[Ignatius]

It's modelled as fixed so it's fire arc is 45 degrees to the front. If it was mounted on a cupola or on the turret it would be 360 degrees.

 

There are different types of mounts.

 

Fixed - Example the rhino storm bolter is fixed when not mounted on the capola - 45

Cupola - Example most imperial vehicles have capola mounts such as the multi-melta on the land raider redeemer/crusader - 360

Hull mounted - Such as the Assault cannons or heavy bolters on a landraider - 90

Turret - The leman russ has a turret mounted weapon - 360

 

 

I

 

Close, but hull mounted weapons are the same thing as fixed weapons and they only have a 45 degree firing arc. The other mountings are turrets and pintle mounts, which each get 360 degrees unless blocked by the model itself, and sponsons, which vary depending on the model. I personally think that modifying a model to increase the firing arcs of its sponson or hull mounted weapons is most definitely cheating.

 

Lol cheating, not really! There are no rules stating that sponsons have the same fire arc as the boxed model nor what their fire arcs are such as a fixed mount! The old preadator with the metal sponsons has a worse fire arc than the new plastic one! but you may still legaly use both as they represent the unit in the codex. The land raider rules state which weapons it has but not where they are mounted so if you take the time and effort to convert then that's fine by me! The models are a representation of the units in the codex. So if the codex states that it has sponsons like the predator then it must mount the weapons in those sponsons; but there is nothing to stop you mounting the heavy bolters on the land raider in a turret on the top as it doesn't state where those weapons are mounted.

 

I

[rat of vengence]

The assault cannons/heavy bolters on a Landraider are not the same as fixed; they have a firing arc determined by how far the turret can rotate.

 

I agree on modelling to increase firing arc = cheating.

 

RoV

[Deus de Mortalis]

The assault cannons/heavy bolters on a Landraider are not the same as fixed; they have a firing arc determined by how far the turret can rotate.

 

But they aren't hull mounted, but pintle or turret mounted because they can rotate. Hull mounted weapons are fixed and cannot move separate from the vehicle. It is just that Ignatius came up with his own version of hull-mounted that isn't in the rule book. The rulebook only names turret-mounted, hull-mounted (fixed), sponson-mounted, and pintle-mounted weapons.

[rat of vengence]

The assault cannons/heavy bolters on a Landraider are not the same as fixed; they have a firing arc determined by how far the turret can rotate.

 

But they aren't hull mounted, but pintle or turret mounted because they can rotate. Hull mounted weapons are fixed and cannot move separate from the vehicle. It is just that Ignatius came up with his own version of hull-mounted that isn't in the rule book. The rulebook only names turret-mounted, hull-mounted (fixed), sponson-mounted, and pintle-mounted weapons.

That's why I said "...how far the turret can rotate." I never said they were hull mounted. ^_^

 

RoV

[Cameron Magnus]

So what are the "accepted" firing arcs of the LRC LR and the Predator?

 

I know that different model versions as well as custom jobs have different arcs of rotation. I have two preds bought several years apart and their sponsons dont rotate thhe same distance.

[Frosty the Pyro]

the accepted firing arcs are whatever the models gun can point at. Anything that can move gets to shoot at anything it can point at, if you glued your turret, you get to pretend it can point at anything it would be able point at if you didnt. Anything that cant move (or wouldnt get to move even if you didnt glue the turret like simpleton) gets 45 degreees.

[Cameron Magnus]

Maybe i should clarify. when you have two preds same point cost but differrent era models and the sponsons dont rotate the same, the one with the shorter arc is SOL even though it cost the same? Seems like an unfair advantage to me.

[rat of vengence]

Its the way it is. I have old terminators that have 25mm bases, which is both better and worse. I also have a Mk1 Vindicator, which is a tad smaller, so better to hide. Do I do it for advantage? Hell no. I can't afford to be replacing perfectly good models just because there is a newer shinier one.

 

So yes, the older Predator has more restricted sponson LoS.

 

RoV

[Frosty the Pyro]

Thems the breaks. Heck even with the same model kit, just how you put it together can change how the arcs go. ones more forward or backward can angle a little of the forward/back area. Modeling for advantage is lame, but legal.

[Isiah]

In that instance I'd say strictly you aren't modeling to advantage as you aren't changing the original model in any way. All you're doing is thinking a bit more carefully when presented with the available legal options you have when sticking it together.

 

But the point is well made – how you construct things can sometimes have an effect gamewise.

[Archon Mike]

They used to be a "fire and forget" weapon, if you had line of site, it could be targeted, but I am not finding that in the rule book. So it didn't matter what they were modeled like on your tank. the old launchers also were made so it was a 360 coverage.

[Ntin]

In regards to the original question it is covered on page 2 of the Warhammer 40,000 Errata & FAQS.

[MadCowCrazy]

In regards to the original question it is covered on page 2 of the Warhammer 40,000 Errata & FAQS.

 

Since it was not posted what it said I will paste it.

 

Q. On page 59, the rules for the arc of fire of

pintle-mounted (or bolt-on) weapons address

those mounted on turrets and those mounted

directly on the hull. But what about those

mounted on smaller structures (like a Rhino’s

cupola) that look like they can rotate 360º, even

though they aren’t proper turrets?

A. Remember that the rule is: if it looks like you

can point the gun at it, then you can, even if it’s

glued in place’. The rest is just a set of guidelines

about the arcs of fire of weapons glued in place,

and does not cover all possible weapons

mounting and vehicles. If the structure the gun is

pintle-mounted on is obviously capable of

rotating 360º, like in the case of a Rhino’s cupola,

then it should be treated as having a 360º arc of

fire. However, if you mount the same storm

bolter on a Razorback, even though it still can

rotate 360º, it won’t obviously be able to fire

through the Razorback’s main turret, and so it

will have a ‘blind spot’. In the same way, the

shuriken catapult mounted under the hull of a

Wave Serpent, Falcon, etc. looks like it can rotate

360º, but it does not look like it can be fired

through the main hull right behind it, so we

normally play that it can be fired roughly in the

180º to the vehicle’s front, which seems like an

acceptable compromise.

 

So if I understand this correct all weapons placed in hull slots (pintle or otherwise) can fire in a 360 arc as long as there isnt anything on the hull blocking LOS. Kinda sucks for the conversion work I was planning to add to my rhinos and immolators, making it so I can aim behind me.

 

The rulebook says : Pintle-mounted (or bolt-on) weapons can either fire in a 360 arc, if they are mounted on the vehicles turret; or 45 arc from their mounting poing if they are mounted on the vehicles hull.

But what is really regarded as the hull? When looking at the pictures in the rulebook and when reading the rule I get the impression they are talking about the hull guns you can place on the chimera and leman russ for instance at the front. But not the pintle mounted storm bolter u can place on a rhino for instance.

 

So from what I understand the the regular Stormbolter on a rhino and a pintle mounted one can both fire 360 but not through eachother.

 

 

I would be interested in the rules regarding placing side sponson weapons the wrong way, facing backwards, would this allow you to shoot units behind your tank without having to turn it?

[MechSpacewulf]

Thanks guys, got my answer.

[Isiah]

I would be interested in the rules regarding placing side sponson weapons the wrong way, facing backwards, would this allow you to shoot units behind your tank without having to turn it?

 

Yes. As sponson weapons work by means of their physical mounting design/or the guns actual movement, plus using LOS along the weapon itself. Whichever way the gun points it can shoot.

 

Whether putting your sponsons on back to front is in any way sensible or considered modeling for advantage and hence frowned upon is for another discussion ;).

 

Cheers

I

[MadCowCrazy]

I would be interested in the rules regarding placing side sponson weapons the wrong way, facing backwards, would this allow you to shoot units behind your tank without having to turn it?

 

Yes. As sponson weapons work by means of their physical mounting design/or the guns actual movement, plus using LOS along the weapon itself. Whichever way the gun points it can shoot.

 

Whether putting your sponsons on back to front is in any way sensible or considered modeling for advantage and hence frowned upon is for another discussion :D.

 

Cheers

I

 

 

What happens if I put Predator sponsoons or a Leman russ?

On page 59 in the BRB it says : Sponsoon mounted weapons vary greatly, as some can cover the full 180 of the flank they are mounted on (predators), while other are more limited (45 degree Leman russ).

This is determined by the shape and position of the sponsons mounting.

 

Is there really anything that prevents me from putting predator sponsons on a leman russ to get a wider Arc of Fire? I would regard this as cheating but is there really rules against it? Does a model really have to be identical to the kit it came in (conversion work comes to mind).

I dont remember the IG codex saying anything about the Leman Russ sponsons not being able to fire 180 degrees,

[Dunedon]

What happens if I put Predator sponsoons or a Leman russ?

On page 59 in the BRB it says : Sponsoon mounted weapons vary greatly, as some can cover the full 180 of the flank they are mounted on (predators), while other are more limited (45 degree Leman russ).

This is determined by the shape and position of the sponsons mounting.

 

Is there really anything that prevents me from putting predator sponsons on a leman russ to get a wider Arc of Fire? I would regard this as cheating but is there really rules against it? Does a model really have to be identical to the kit it came in (conversion work comes to mind).

I dont remember the IG codex saying anything about the Leman Russ sponsons not being able to fire 180 degrees,

 

I think that BRB quote covers the rules discussions on sponsons though ... as it specifically says that Predators have 180 and Rus has 45 ... putting differant sponsors on would be modelling to gain a game advantage, and frowned upon (I know my gaming group would just rule they worked as the BRB intended anyways)

 

... not to mention from a fluff perspective you'd have a dead tank, no way a Leman Russ Battle Tank Machine Spirit is going to allow itself to go out in public wearing Predator sponsons, how embarassing.

 

- Dunedon