xxvaderxx Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 Ok, been discusing this for a while now, i seem to cant get through to someone so i decided to ask for a second opinion. Does a captain joining a comand squad benefit from FNP? My answer: NO. I dissagre, because of these: Pag 48. Special Rules When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the "stubborn" special rule), the units special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the characters special rules are not conferred upon the unit. In some cases though, the independent character or the unit may lose their special rules as a result of the character joining the unit. For example, if an independent character without the infiltrate special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate. Retinues Some codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a "retinue", "bodyguard" or similar). Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of this unit are killed, at which point it starts counting as an independent character and it will do so for the rest of the game. Pag 74. The special rules marked with an asterisk (*) are automatically lost by an independant character joining a unit that does not have the same special rule. These rules are also lost by a unit that is joined by an independant character that does not have the same special rule. Pag 75. Feel no pain: Some warriors are so blood-frenzied or touh that they can ignore injuries that would incapacitate even a battle-hardened space marine. If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice. On a 1, 2 or 3, take the wound as normal (removing the model if it loses its final wound). On a 4, 5 or 6, the injury is ignored and the model continues fighting. This ability cannot be used against wounds from weapons that inflict instant death (by having a high enough strength or a special rule to that effect; even if the model is an eternal warrior). Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any other wound against which no armor save can ever be taken (like wounds from power fists, Dreadnought close combat weapons, rendering weapons that roll a 6, Perils of the Warp, failed dangerous terrain tests, etc). Codex Space Marines pag 58: Honour of the Chapter: A Chaplain utterly embodies the honour of the Chapter. He, and all the members of a squad he has joined, are fearless, as described in the warhammer 40k rulebook. Pag 75: Fearless Fearless troops automatically pass all Morale and Pinning tests they are required to take, and will never fall back. They can however go to ground voluntarily. This special rule is gained by any independent Caracter joining a fearless unit. However, as long as a fearless character stays with a unit that is not fearless, he loses this special rule. If a unit that is falling back suddenly gains this rule, it will automatically regroup at the beginning of its next Movement phase, regardless of all normal restrictions on regrouping. The apothecary gives the FNP rule to its unit, therefore until it dies it is a unit`s rule. Otherwise it would have been stated "And to any Character that joins". As it is on the fearless rules. +Who does the apothecary give FNP to? To the unit +Captain IC joining the unit benefits from unit`s special rules? NO, as per standard IC rules +Does apothecary state that it extend to aditional caracters, overiding standard IC rules? NO This would be a diferent scenario: Chaplain + Captain + Any unit, there the Captain would be Fearless, because you get the specific statement that it does so. +Who does the chaplain give FEARLESS to? To the unit. +Captain IC joining the unit benefits from unit`s special rules? NO, as per standard IC rules. +Does chaplain state that it extend to aditional caracters, overiding standard IC rules? Yes, as stated in the FEARLESS rules, IC joining a FEARLESS unit DO get FEARLESS overiding standard IC rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187026-comand-squad-captain-and-fnp-question/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rindaris Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 FNP is a benefit granted from the presence of the Apothecary, not an ability granted to the squad on a model by model basis. So the Captain would get FNP as long as the Apothecary was alive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187026-comand-squad-captain-and-fnp-question/#findComment-2212455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
alloyslayer Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 rindaris has it spot on. it carries over to the character joining the squad. or you could just take sicarius as your captain and be done with it ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187026-comand-squad-captain-and-fnp-question/#findComment-2212494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxvaderxx Posted December 11, 2009 Author Share Posted December 11, 2009 Deleted, added to OP. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187026-comand-squad-captain-and-fnp-question/#findComment-2212510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 Pag 74.The special rules marked with an asterisk (*) are automatically lost by an independant character joining a unit that does not have the same special rule. These rules are also lost by a unit that is joined by an independant character that does not have the same special rule. does the FNP rule get marked as such? if not he gives it to the IC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187026-comand-squad-captain-and-fnp-question/#findComment-2212523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxvaderxx Posted December 11, 2009 Author Share Posted December 11, 2009 Pag 74.The special rules marked with an asterisk (*) are automatically lost by an independant character joining a unit that does not have the same special rule. These rules are also lost by a unit that is joined by an independant character that does not have the same special rule. does the FNP rule get marked as such? if not he gives it to the IC There is talking about loosing skills, nowhere there is talking about winning skills. For him "not to loose it", he would have to have it on his own first, this is not the case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187026-comand-squad-captain-and-fnp-question/#findComment-2212524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 I understand what your saying but the apothecary grants FNP to anyone in the unit.. unless there is a rule saying the IC doesnt get the FNP then it stands. If its not in the list of rules marked as not being transferrable then there is very little argument to question the IC getting FNP.. GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187026-comand-squad-captain-and-fnp-question/#findComment-2212818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Codex over-rules rule book. There is no conflict in this at all. The apothecary grants this ability to anyone in the squad. Once the IC has joined he gains this ability- not because of the USR rules - but because of the codex: marine rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187026-comand-squad-captain-and-fnp-question/#findComment-2212861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Ah i had forgotten that nugget.. thanks M Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187026-comand-squad-captain-and-fnp-question/#findComment-2212863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Ah i had forgotten that nugget.. thanks M no probs! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187026-comand-squad-captain-and-fnp-question/#findComment-2212878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 FNP is not the unit rule, it is the apothicary rule that it is granted to the unit. When an IC joins the unit, he is part of the unit, and thus the apothicary will grant him that rule. The IC most definatly gains FNP from the apothicary for shooting and movement phases. The assult phase becomes a little trickier because an IC is technicly a seperate unit untill the "combat results" part of the combat. thus there is a good argument for him to not benifit from FNP in CC. But there is NO argument to deny him FNP from shooting, or any wounds that may be aquired in the movement phase. Side note, there is no reason to quote the retinue rules, there are no retinues in Codex Space Marines Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187026-comand-squad-captain-and-fnp-question/#findComment-2212904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 In the assault phase the IC can be singled out as a single unit, but he is still part of that unit. Recall that an IC can only join or leave a unit during the Movement phase. He's treated as alone for the purposes of selecting a target; nothing more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187026-comand-squad-captain-and-fnp-question/#findComment-2213198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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