arjac- stubborn

[stinkenheim]

before the shouting commences i did search and there were threads about how tough arjac is and one mention of stubborn but no answer.

 

during a chat with some mates the topic of arjac came up. we were talking about how good he is at killing characters but also how he meant his unit could stay in fights longer due to stubborn. it was then that someone said as he isn't an IC stubborn doesn't get conferred to his unit and no where in his rules does it say he grants it to his unit.

my arguement was that yu always test using the best leadership of the unit.

 

if you had a wolf lord join the unit it would normally become ld 10. if combat was then lost, lets say by 4, the unit would normally be testing at ld 6. to me this is where arjac steps in as his ld is never reduced he would still be testing at ld 9. seeing as this would then be the best ld in the unit it is the one you would test under.

 

does that make sense and if so what are your views on this?

 

+edit+ p 8 BRB

LEADERSHIP TEST

test made against the leadership characterisitc (like morale checks) are different from other tests... If a unit includes models with different leadership values, always use the one with the highest Ld value.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I think that is a fair point. Not sure if it is true or not. would be at least wiggle room for a dice off.

[Duke Corwin]

I think they meant for him to make the unit stubborn. Maybe he was orignally going to be an IC. However when they made him an upgrade character it caused problems with his being stubborn. You may be right in your interpretation but what we really need is an FAQ that covers Arjac (and also Lukas for that matter).

 

One possible answer is that when he is with a pack he retreats with the pack but when he is the last man he is less likely to retreat.

 

You would think that a codex that was 9 years in the making would have clearer rules. :P

[Ullr Direfang]

unless it states in his section in the codex that he gives it to the unit, i would be compelled to say it doesn't like what duke corwin has said. i remember reading some where about stuff like this in the rule book, and not just in the IC section. when i get out of work i will look for it and tell you what i find.

[Night Runner]

before the shouting commences i did search and there were threads about how tough arjac is and one mention of stubborn but no answer.

 

during a chat with some mates the topic of arjac came up. we were talking about how good he is at killing characters but also how he meant his unit could stay in fights longer due to stubborn. it was then that someone said as he isn't an IC stubborn doesn't get conferred to his unit and no where in his rules does it say he grants it to his unit.

my arguement was that yu always test using the best leadership of the unit.

 

if you had a wolf lord join the unit it would normally become ld 10. if combat was then lost, lets say by 4, the unit would normally be testing at ld 6. to me this is where arjac steps in as his ld is never reduced he would still be testing at ld 9. seeing as this would then be the best ld in the unit it is the one you would test under.

 

does that make sense and if so what are your views on this?

 

+edit+ p 8 BRB

LEADERSHIP TEST

test made against the leadership characterisitc (like morale checks) are different from other tests... If a unit includes models with different leadership values, always use the one with the highest Ld value.

 

I think the argument is sound and makes sense. It's true he is not an IC but he is still a character, just an upgrade character. Add to this the use of stubborn and the LD rule quoted by stinkenheim. It seems clear that the test is always taken on a Ld of 9. Also consider that the character is expensive for a reason (or many in Ajac's case) and that this is the exception and not the rule.

[Grey Mage]

Hes stubborn, the unit hes in uses his leadership unless theres a LD 10 character or a Wolf Priest in the squad, thus the unit is stubborn.

 

Simple, straitforward. I like it.

[morkai's fang]

as far as i see it the codex syas that one of the wolf guardin a pack may be upgraded to arjac this means he is part of the squad.

so lets just say that the wolfguard before he was upgraded had stubborn then the res of the unit would be stubborn. so just because he is an upgrade character still means he is part of the sqaud therefore i think the squad should get stubborn

[Wildfire]

My BRB is packed away, but someone should check the rule on USRs that are lost when joining a squad. Does it say independant character, or just character? The exact text here may make a difference.

[WG Vrox]

Since you are taking the LD test off of Arjac and Arjac has the stubborn rule you roll ldship 9 every time regardless of losses in CC. Other wise when would he be able to use the ability, when he is by himself and it doesn't matter! Just some RAI common sense here.

 

 

Vrox.

[Gentlemanloser]

Arjac isn't an IC, so his 'stubborn' rule isn't lost, and is gained by the Squad.

 

Stubborn doesn't have an '*' next to it, so isn't lost by the unit anyway, if an IC joins it.

 

All this is moot anyway, as in CC, the IC is counted as its own unit for combat resolution, and takes its own Ld Test (as does the Unit), so the IC wouldn't benefit from Stubborn.

[WG Vrox]

the IC is counted as its own unit for combat resolution

 

Are you saying that even though the IC joins the squad that you roll two different combat resolution rolls one for the unit and one for the IC if you loose combat?

[stinkenheim]

@ gentlemanloser

 

IC only count as seperate units for attacking and being attacked. once both sides have finished attacking IC go back to being part of the unit the were previously attached to. combat resolution is then worked out and ld tests are taken for the losing sides. if an IC is part of a unit that loses combat only one test is made (using the best ld as per the BRB) and both IC and unit abide by the results.

 

the way you were saying it then there is never any fearless/stubborn units as it is usually IC that confer that to units they have joined. you are saying that in combat IC and the unit are treated seperately all throughout the combat phase including morale tests. at least that is how i read your reply

[SamaNagol]

You use the highest leadership in the unit. Not the highest leadership PLUS ANY SPECIAL RULES THEY MAY HAVE THAT PERTAIN TO LEADERSHIP.

 

All he does is increase the base LD of any squad he leads. It is then modified by combat resolution.

 

This matter came up on the day the Codex was released and was quickly agreed upon.

[WG Vrox]

You use the highest leadership in the unit. Not the highest leadership PLUS ANY SPECIAL RULES THEY MAY HAVE THAT PERTAIN TO LEADERSHIP. All he does is increase the base LD of any squad he leads. It is then modified by combat resolution. This matter came up on the day the Codex was released and was quickly agreed upon.

 

Why would they give him a special rule that he would be unable to use 99% of the time? He is not an IC and thus does not suffer from that IC rule that disallows the sharing of rule sets. It is the same rule logic that allows PL of wolf scouts to receive the BEL rule.

[the jeske]

Why would they give him a special rule that he would be unable to use 99% of the time?

I dont know , because they did the same with loki and didnt notice that the game they play in the studio is not the same game everyone else plays [aka true to the rules of 5th ed].

[stinkenheim]

@samanagol the point i was trying to raise is that it doesn't specify at what point you decide who has the highest ld. if it is merely at the time of testing then arjacs will be the highest as it never drops from 9.

 

i think its a pretty obvious and legal way of doing things. im not saying the IC gains stubborn from arjac, merely that if combat is lost then arjacs ld 9 is used as it would then be the highest in the unit.

 

also if he were leading a squad as a pack leader then they would obviously use his ld 9 all the time as it would be the highest in the unit and it wouldn't get modified as he is stubborn.

 

this reminds me of the old DA dex where you could make veteran sergeants members of the deathwing and as such they became stubborn. they granted it to the rest of the squad because they were part of it. the same situation appears to have arisen here, a non IC has been given stubborn and yet somehow now he doesn't use it unless he's on his own. just seems strange.

 

you say this was resolved shortly after release day, would you be kind enough to link the topic so that i can have a read of it. as i said, i searched and found nothing related to him confering his rule merely about how tough he was

[SamaNagol]

When a unit upgrade character has a special rule, that ruling is NEVER conveyed to the unit unless specifically stated.

 

When taking break tests you use the highest base leadership in the unit, and THEN you modify it.

 

Arjac benefits from Stubborn when he is the last man left in his unit, which is perfectly fitting with his background.

[WG Vrox]

When a unit upgrade character has a special rule, that ruling is NEVER conveyed to the unit unless specifically stated.

 

Can you quote me a page in the rule book that says this?

[Ullr Direfang]

one thing i will add is that on page 76 of the rule book stubborn has a line that says:

 

Independent characters that are stubborn confer the ability onto any unit that they join.

 

And on page 47 of the rule book i has Character types:

 

- Independent characters.........

 

-Upgrade characters ........

 

i know that as some of what is stated for upgrade characters doesn't apply to space wolves but arjac is an upgrade character not IC, so based of of wording, i still have to say no he doesn't pass on his ability of stubborn.

[the jeske]

i think its a pretty obvious and legal way of doing things. im not saying the IC gains stubborn from arjac, merely that if combat is lost then arjacs ld 9 is used as it would then be the highest in the unit.

m8 but it is not arjac who takes the Ld test , it is the whole unit , they can use arjac Ld , but they cant use his stubborn for the test because the unit doesnt have it . If Ld tested worked like you say one could take a fearless guy and make him auto pass a test for the unit [or take an INQ with iron will and try to do the same] , only I think you will agree that the unit cant use the IC fearless rule , if the unit doesnt have it.

[Gentlemanloser]

@ gentlemanloser

 

IC only count as seperate units for attacking and being attacked. once both sides have finished attacking IC go back to being part of the unit the were previously attached to. combat resolution is then worked out and ld tests are taken for the losing sides. if an IC is part of a unit that loses combat only one test is made (using the best ld as per the BRB) and both IC and unit abide by the results.

 

the way you were saying it then there is never any fearless/stubborn units as it is usually IC that confer that to units they have joined. you are saying that in combat IC and the unit are treated seperately all throughout the combat phase including morale tests. at least that is how i read your reply

 

Hahahaha!

 

I was wrong! <_<

 

Missed the last line of the section which includes the IC back "From Assault Results onwards". :P

[maznaz]

i think its a pretty obvious and legal way of doing things. im not saying the IC gains stubborn from arjac, merely that if combat is lost then arjacs ld 9 is used as it would then be the highest in the unit.

m8 but it is not arjac who takes the Ld test , it is the whole unit , they can use arjac Ld , but they cant use his stubborn for the test because the unit doesnt have it . If Ld tested worked like you say one could take a fearless guy and make him auto pass a test for the unit [or take an INQ with iron will and try to do the same] , only I think you will agree that the unit cant use the IC fearless rule , if the unit doesnt have it.

 

You're missing the point. Arjac doesn't need to confer the special rule to the unit. In the example you gave, the rule would have to be conferred to the unit as otherwise you'd follow normal procedure and take a test at the highest leadership in the unit. That leadership isn't set to 12 by the rule, it's just an auto pass. As already explained, Arjac's stubborn prevents his leadership being modified, so the highest leadership of the unit never drops below 9. This has nothing to do with conferring his special rule to the unit at all.

 

Marek

[stinkenheim]

makes a change for us to agree on something maz :devil:

 

as for Jeske's point about Inq and fearless characters... yes those rules are normally conferred to the unit. take a look at chaplains/wolf priest... hell any fearless character and it says 99% of the time they are conferred to the unit the join. i can't think of a single character that has fearless but not the line about passing it onto their unit.

the Inq Iron Will rule is the same (like calgars special rule), its simpl a coice of whther you pass or fail a ld check. it doesn't matter what you would normally need to roll it is always assumed to pass or fail depending on your coice.

 

i can't see anywhere in the rules that says stubborn is ignored if only one model has it, nor a line about picking the highest ld before modifying it. if someone would please show me where these are it would be a great help.

 

i can see the line 'special rules marked with an asterix are lost by IC joining a unit without it' (paraphrasing there but hey) and the stubborn quote which says 'Stubborn resistance against impossible odds is a feature of some races. When taking morale tests, stubborn units always ignore any negative ld modifiers. IC that are stubborn confer the ability onto any unit they join'. note stubborn is not a rule markedwith an asterix.

 

it really doesn't seem cheesy or even like bending the rules to say that arjac remains stubborn when in a unit (they use his ld 9 when required to test) but that the rule isn't conferred onto IC that join (so in the event of losing by more than 1 arjacs is used as it remains 9 whilst the ICs drops).

in fact it seems wrong to say that a character with stubborn loses it unless the whole unit as the special rule.

 

somone says that it is fitting with the fluff that arjac is only stubborn when the last one left. what is also fitting is that the rest of the pack may wish to run but arjac refuses, due to their honour and loyalty to each other they won't abandon a fellow space wolf and so stay put.

 

at the end of the day, this is someting which both my gaming group and myself are happy with using as a solution and i thought i would share it with you guys. if some of you wish to use this as your own house rules then by all means go ahead and if you disagree and don't think its right then again, feel free not to use it.

 

have a good one guys

[maznaz]

makes a change for us to agree on something maz :devil:

 

Haha yeah. And I forgot to say, I'm impressed with your rationale and think you explained it very well.

[SamaNagol]

You pick the highest leadership for the unit. AFTER you have done that, that unit's leadership is then modified.

 

That is why Stubborn has no effect. You are not modifying the LD of Arjac, you are modifying the unit's leadership, which happens to be of the value of Arjac's.