arjac- stubborn

[WG Vrox]

I will use your words to help explain our position, outside of that you are the only one posting who still thinks this way and I will not waste any more time trying to change your opinion

 

You pick the highest leadership for the unit. AFTER you have done that, that unit's leadership is then modified. That is why Stubborn has an effect as Arjac's leadership is not change. You are not modifying the LD of Arjac, you are modifying the unit's leadership which happens to be of the value of Arjac's which is LD 9 as it can not be modified.

 

Vrox

[Ullr Direfang]

this is just another one of those things that has to wait until it gets FAQed. depending on how you read the rule book will depend on how you play arjac. i don't know why i even posted here since i will never run arjac, but i felt that what i posted supported my view. if we,a s a community here, once again agrees to disagree, then we can settle this. other wise this will go on like so many topics we have covered since the new codex came out.

[SamaNagol]

Modifying a Leadership of 9 is still modifying a leadership. The fact that Arjac's base Leadership of 9 cannot be modified, does not mean the Leadership of 9 for a unit of Wolf Guard or Grey Hunters led by Arjac can not be modified.

 

Individual models do not confer special rules onto squads unless otherwise specified. It is stated clearly that Independent Characters grant a unit they join Stubborn. Arjac does not have the Independent Character rule.

 

"When taking Morale checks, Stubborn units always ignore any negative modifiers". A unit led by Arjac is not Stubborn. Arjac is Stubborn.

[Ignatius]

Modifying a Leadership of 9 is still modifying a leadership. The fact that Arjac's base Leadership of 9 cannot be modified, does not mean the Leadership of 9 for a unit of Wolf Guard or Grey Hunters led by Arjac can not be modified.

 

Individual models do not confer special rules onto squads unless otherwise specified. It is stated clearly that Independent Characters grant a unit they join Stubborn. Arjac does not have the Independent Character rule.

 

"When taking Morale checks, Stubborn units always ignore any negative modifiers". A unit led by Arjac is not Stubborn. Arjac is Stubborn.

 

Yeap his right! silly I know and I'd bet money on it that when the dex was written the designer meant that a unit with Arjac is stubborn but ho hum!

 

I

[Oldenhaller]

Hmmm...I think the most important thing here is if the LD check is above Arjac's as this will govern what the leadership of the unit is.

 

RAW interpretation : Arjac is not an independent character and thus does not convey Stubborn to the unit which he is with - this wil also include any IC's who are have joined the unit. Morale checks are taken on the 'unit's leadership' which will be the highest in the unit. The choice of which leadership value is used is made before any modifiers are applied. If a Wolf Lord has joined the unit the Ld of the unit will be 10 and CAN be modified down bellow 9 as neither the character nor the unit have Stubborn. So even with Arjac in the unit, if lead by a Wolf Lord who looses combat by 4 it will be checked at Ld 6.

 

RAI : Arjac applies the rule of stubborn to any unit he is in.

 

My Tuppenth

 

~O

[stinkenheim]

funny enough oldenhaller thats what i was thinking of when i was at work today.

 

if no one else in the unit has a higher ld that arjac then to all intents and purposes the unit is stubborn, as arjacs stubborn is not lost when joining non stubborn units and he would have the highest ld present.

if an IC joins then as their ld is highest that is used at the time of the test and represents arjac bowing to their tactical acumen.

[SamaNagol]

Arjac's leadership is conferred to the unit. Arjac's special rules are not conferred to the unit.

 

The UNIT's leadership counts as 9. Arjac has the special rule of Stubborn, so when Arjac takes a Leadership test it can not be modified. However Arjac is not taking the test. The unit is. And USRs are not conveyed to a squad unless otherwise specified.

[stinkenheim]

the way you are saying it arjac will never get the stubborn rule as even if he is the last man standing he is still part of the UNIT, and as he is not an IC doesn't revert to being arjac again. he is partof whatever unit he joins until he dies.

[SamaNagol]

If that is RAW, then that is RAW. I don't write them. I just read them.

 

Until it is FAQed otherwise, that is how it works within the current mechanics of the game. Thank Phil Kelly.

[stinkenheim]

which is why i thought i would share how my gaming group is doing things as it is a pretty simple solution.

as i said in an earlier post if you don't want to use it its your choice but its how my friends and i have houseruled it. you see we follow one of the RAW, the one on page 2 of the BRB.

 

'The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both player agree you can treat them as sacrosant or merely guidelines- the choice is entirely yours.'

 

we read the rules, we follow the majority, the ones we don't think work well we houserule so that they still obey the main principles but also work. this is one such case, as an upgrade character (and the only one I know of with stubborn) we decided that his unit would use his ld if it was the highest in there and thus use his stubborn rule.

 

its really that simple. as i say, if you wish to use a similar house rule then feel free, i've presented my idea to you and hope that those who want to will use it as a basis for their own houserules.

 

all the best... now off to find a mod to get this closed down before it becomes a 7 page thread with the same points being argued like JOWW...

[SamaNagol]

Of course, and amongst friends that is the very best solution!

 

I just feel that for a company which thrives off expanding it's customer base, having a clearly defined, well proofed set of rules is a no-brainer. Not everyone is playing in their living room with their buddies afterall.