Shadow Captain Corveus Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 We've just been playing a few games all day today (Shas'o and I) and after contenting ouselves with copious amounts of needless bloodshed we were looking at various rules in the C:SM. We realised that the rulebook does not actually say either way (after scouring the book (and rule book!)) whether the commander can detatch from his command squad. This point arose when I contemplated getting a command squad, but suggested that it would make Shrike's Jump Pack redundant... It does not actually say in the rulebook that the command squad is a retinue, but rather that he can take one, this therefore implies that it may possibly be taken as a seperate unit... You may take one Command Guard Squad for every Space Marine Captain in your army (Including Capt. Sicarus, Capt. Lysander, Capt. Shrike and Kor'sarro Khan). This does not count against your HQ allowance. Notice that it does not say Retinue (therefore implies) Bodyguard (therefore implies) Attatched Unit. Rules clarification would be appreciated! :D Thanks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingo Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 The Command Squad is simply a unit that you can select if you have a Captain and it does not take up a FOC slot. Forget any 'retinue' ideas: there are none in C:SM. The Codex explicitly calls it a 'unit'. The Captain can join or leave the Command Squad, just like any other unit. And yes: the inability for a Command Suqad to take jump packs is a possibly a bit of an oversight. And also: this may probably be better placed in the Official Rules forum...? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2213480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
marine Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 they don't get jump packs because that means blood angels honour guard wouldn't be so special Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2213492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Yep, not a Retinue, so no problem with the JP- also note that if theyre on bikes, they can keep up with him...... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2213497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 with regards to the jumppack part. imho there arent alot of captains that use jumppacks fluffwise. aside from Dante i can only think of Shrike.... so maybe thats why jp's arent an option? because fluffwise, not alot of captains use them? its really the only reason i can think off, aside from keeping BA's special offcourse -_- (and il be darned if they take that away from us to! like the furioso!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2213537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
I AM THE AWESOME Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 with regards to the jumppack part. imho there arent alot of captains that use jumppacks fluffwise. aside from Dante i can only think of Shrike.... so maybe thats why jp's arent an option? because fluffwise, not alot of captains use them? its really the only reason i can think off, aside from keeping BA's special offcourse :rolleyes: (and il be darned if they take that away from us to! like the furioso!) Hmm, let me see... Mortis dreads Heavenfall blades Just because Vanilla Marines haven't stepped on BA's toes, doesn't mean they're trying to keep BA special ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2213586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I AM THE AWESOME Posted Today, 02:26 AM Heavenfall blades whats that? anyway what i mean is that blood angels lost alot of stuff that for a long time was unique to them. jump pack veterans, dreads with 2 close combat weapons and an "honour guard" also in the previous marine codex you could make an apothecary an hq as well which before that was also unique to the BA's. aside from the fluff reason i posted the only reason that i can think off why chapter DONT got flying command squad is that theyre reserving it for the BA's. not saying that i dont think other people should get it, just saying that perhaps GW are keeping it as a signature unit for the BA's. like SW's can ride wolves and have devastators that can target different targets -_- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2213625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 :to:?!?!?! :Psorry but:they don't get jump packs because that means blood angels honour guard wouldn't be so specialYeah, the Vanilla marines dont have Jump packs veterans like Blood Angels.......... Wait! What?! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2213922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherZaah Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Why should the blood angels be special? they're a codex chapter too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2213926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Loring Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 This is a little odd to me, in the BT codex it specifically states... "... The character is a member of the unit and may not leave it. If the squad is destroyed, the attached character may operate independently." pg 22 C:BT I would have thought it would be the same for C:SM (aside the fact you are 5 th Ed. and we are still 4th... :lol: ), as it kinda makes sense - the command squad being with the commander. There we go, I suppose there are some more obvious oddities in the game... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2213931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingo Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I suppose if you could give them jump packs, theyd kind of become a cheaper and better Vanguard. I don't mind that the captain can leave the unit. He's the boss, he can do what he likes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2213934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Askari Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Yep, command squads are no longer a retinue. Command squads can't take jp's because they would make vanguard pointless (though their high cost already does that). I don't think GW cares about keeping BA unique, bu it has made sure to keep Codex:SM from being able to make a close combat or jump infantry army.(Shrike builds suck since SM's will almost always do more damage shooting than charging and our only competitive CC choices are the cheap assault marines that are average at cc and the assault termies that are very expensive and have low mobility even with fleet unless you take a land raider.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2213941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 This is a little odd to me, in the BT codex it specifically states... "... The character is a member of the unit and may not leave it. If the squad is destroyed, the attached character may operate independently." pg 22 C:BT I would have thought it would be the same for C:SM (aside the fact you are 5 th Ed. and we are still 4th... :lol: ), as it kinda makes sense - the command squad being with the commander. There we go, I suppose there are some more obvious oddities in the game... Retinues are going away. For marines, the Black Templars and Grey Knights are the only chapters with retinues. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space wolves and codex marines don't have retinues anymore. It is likely when the BT get updated, they will have command squads but not be a retinue anymore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2213972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Corveus Posted December 13, 2009 Author Share Posted December 13, 2009 I joined at the start of 5ed, so I wouldn't know, but from what you guys are saying, the fact that they no longer explicitly specify that the commander is permanently attatched to his Command Squad implies that this requirement no longer applies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2214258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingo Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 It's more than implied. He doesn't have to stay with the command squad because it's a unit and he's an independent character :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2214262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormvane Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 The 40K rulebook does not require that a retinue be called such. Retinue is a generic term for a unit that accompanies an IC, converting them into an upgrade character and providing them with ablative wounds. The first paragraph of the description of the Command squad in the SM: Codex states that they accompany high ranking space marine officers. The Space Marine Captain cannot leave a command squad as it is purchased to accompany him. Regardless of the terminology used to describe the unit, it is a retinue for a captain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2214619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 The 40K rulebook does not require that a retinue be called such. Retinue is a generic term for a unit that accompanies an IC, converting them into an upgrade character and providing them with ablative wounds. The first paragraph of the description of the Command squad in the SM: Codex states that they accompany high ranking space marine officers. The Space Marine Captain cannot leave a command squad as it is purchased to accompany him. Regardless of the terminology used to describe the unit, it is a retinue for a captain. You are dead wrong on this one. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2214650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever87 Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 The first paragraph of the description of the Command squad in the SM: Codex states that they accompany high ranking space marine officers. Fluff == Rules. The Captain is still an IC even when attached to the Command Squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2214651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaeron Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 looks like another RAW v RAI war.... but honestly i'm sure i read somewhere the command squads were attached to commanders and he ceased to be an independent character until all of the command squad was nixxed. it may have been in a white dwarf q&a im not sure so iut may have been retconned. ....this wasn't helpful at all was it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2214654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 but honestly i'm sure i read somewhere the command squads were attached to commanders and he ceased to be an independent character until all of the command squad was nixxed Yeah, this was what I thought to begin with, but in the previous C:SM they were defined as a Retinue, but in the new one they aren't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2214692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Corveus Posted December 14, 2009 Author Share Posted December 14, 2009 A point to mention may be that in this month's WD the Salamanders defend Outpost XIII against the Nids. The injured commander is able to detatch from his command squad. However it does say in the game background that this happens for a specific reason (fluff). It doesn't actually say anything anywhere in the Rules section but however says thet they follow him around in the Fluff section of the Command Squad; therefore because the Rules don't say anything about it the matter is still undefined in game... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2214731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Dragon Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 So i've got a question in regards to this. As an IC does not have to stay with the command squad, how does it effect the mission where you bring on only an HQ and 2 troop choices? Does it have to it's own reserves roll or as it does not take up an FOC can it come on straight away? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2214835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 So i've got a question in regards to this. As an IC does not have to stay with the command squad, how does it effect the mission where you bring on only an HQ and 2 troop choices? Does it have to it's own reserves roll or as it does not take up an FOC can it come on straight away? You can deploy either the captain or the command squad (if they were a retinue you could deploy both). As for reserves, you can decide to attach the captain to the command squad (or any other squad) and bring him in with their reserve roll. If you do, you can't seperate them until the turn after they come in. looks like another RAW v RAI war....but honestly i'm sure i read somewhere the command squads were attached to commanders and he ceased to be an independent character until all of the command squad was nixxed. it may have been in a white dwarf q&a im not sure so iut may have been retconned. ....this wasn't helpful at all was it Command squads in Black Templars work that way. This isn't RAW vs RAI. GW is intentionally trying to phase out retinues. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2214837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 This isn't RAW vs RAI. GW is intentionally trying to phase out retinues. Hoorah Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2214906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 A while ago I made a "What constitutes a Retinue?" thread in the Rules form. VERY helpful for everyone, as it resolved alot of problem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187120-command-squad/#findComment-2216038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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