Mishaps and Sanctuary

[Seahawk]

This came up in yesterday's game:

 

What happens when a unit of C:CD Daemons arrives, mishaps, a 3-4 is rolled, and a C:DH player plops them into an area covered by Sanctuary?

 

On one hand, the mishap chart says: "Your opponent may deploy the unit anywhere on the table (excluding impassable terrain, but including difficult terrain...)"

On the other, Sanctuary says: "Daemons may not move within 3" of the psyker for any reason - they treat this area as impassable.../...Any Daemon that enters play within 3"...is automatically destroyed."

 

We decided the first model coming down can't be within the 3" because, but if subsequent models coming down in the rings happen to land in it they are destroyed as per the power. Would it actually be that none can be placed within the bubble o' doom?

[Ntin]

The full text for “Misplaced” states that the opponent must place the daemon unit in a valid deep strike formation (id est circle) without scattering. So your situation could not occur on a mishap opponent redeployment as it would be akin to deploy half the unit over a cliff.

[Seahawk]

Ahh, good point. Makes that part of Sanctuary kind of pointless then. Ah well, something had to be biffed about it, heh.

[Ntin]

Smart Chaos Daemon players have the Masque to counter Sanctuary not even the Grey Knights can resist the dance.

[Seahawk]

How would that be any help? Pavane is a ranged weapon, one that needs Line of Sight. Sanctuary blocks that too, for daemons.

[Ntin]

To the Psyker not the entire unit he is in. That would be a very tight circle of Terminators otherwise.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Santuary only protects against deamons as defined by codex deamon hunters on pg 20: deamon hunters those are: Deamon hosts, Deamon packs, Greater deamons, Deamon Beasts, nurglings, deamonicly posesed vehicles (such as defilers), eldar avatar, possesed chaos space marines, and chaos lords with demonic stature and/or over 50 points of demonic gifts.

 

Of those only Greater deamons and nurglings exsist in Codex: chaos deamons. Anything else is fair game to completely ignore sanctuary. Normaly I would consider this a dick move, but sanctuary itself is a dick move, and turnabout is fair game.

[Seahawk]

No, the entire 3" from the psyker area is null for LOS, which can easily fit a squad of terminators, though only inquisitors are sufficient to protect a combat squad sitting on an objective, for instance.

 

"...they treat this area as impassable and cannot draw line of sight through it."

 

As for terminology, we don't play tournament style when we don't have to, and we only consider it a mean thing if you have 5 psykers protecting a rather large area...

[Morticon]

Frosty - additionally most tournies have ruled this way too. UK GT and INAT FAQ are the two big ones I care about.

 

Ntin - also a psyker in a landraider means thats a 12" footprint you cant see through.

 

Seahawk - your opponent could place like that! There is nothing in the deepstrike rule preventing it.

However, doing so would automatically see the models deployed in that area destroyed.

[Ntin]

Do Soul Grinders fall under ‘Daemons’ Terminology? They are a vehicle with the daemon rule but not the Daemon Possession upgrade (although they do the same thing) from the 3.5 Chaos Codex.

 

A Psyker in a vehicle would be a nice mobile mountain but if the vehicle moves the psychic power would end too.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Seahawk - your opponent could place like that! There is nothing in the deepstrike rule preventing it.

However, doing so would automatically see the models deployed in that area destroyed.

I beleive it not being a "vallad deapstriking position" means that that it cannot be placed as such. Santuary creats an area that is treated as imppassable terain. Impassable terain cannot be deepstriked into from a misshap.

 

To Ntin, doing the same thing is not the same as being the same. Thats why a chaos marine with wings can be hit by jawes of the world wolf and can enter transports. By RAW it would not count.

[Locmac]

Santuary only protects against deamons as defined by codex deamon hunters on pg 20: deamon hunters those are: Deamon hosts, Deamon packs, Greater deamons, Deamon Beasts, nurglings, deamonicly posesed vehicles (such as defilers), eldar avatar, possesed chaos space marines, and chaos lords with demonic stature and/or over 50 points of demonic gifts.

 

Of those only Greater deamons and nurglings exsist in Codex: chaos deamons. Anything else is fair game to completely ignore sanctuary. Normaly I would consider this a dick move, but sanctuary itself is a dick move, and turnabout is fair game.

To Ntin, doing the same thing is not the same as being the same. Thats why a chaos marine with wings can be hit by jawes of the world wolf and can enter transports. By RAW it would not count.

 

Isn't there a little box on the first rule page of the demon codex saying that all things in this codex are demons? Otherwise Gilmore of True Names sucks.

[Ntin]

The Codex on page 20 gives a very narrow set of units that are considered to be daemons. I am going to have a field day next time I play my friends Grey Knights. See how his fancy pants Terminators stand up to 20 Seekers of Slaanesh.

[Locmac]

The Codex on page 20 gives a very narrow set of units that are considered to be daemons. I am going to have a field day next time I play my friends Grey Knights. See how his fancy pants Terminators stand up to 20 Seekers of Slaanesh.

I have both, the demon codex clearly states that everything in the codex is a demon, so they can benefit from the over all demon rules. The reason DH lists what demons are is because there was no demon codex back then.

[Ntin]

I have both, the demon codex clearly states that everything in the codex is a demon, so they can benefit from the over all demon rules. The reason DH lists what demons are is because there was no demon codex back then.

 

Yup that is only why a few of the models in Codex: Chaos Daemons are affected by Codex: Daemon Hunters. One could argue Rules as Intended would encompass anything daemonic or warp related by Codex: Daemon Hunters explicitly states what falls under the purview of demonology. Oddly enough 4th edition Codex: Chaos Marine, Daemon Princes are not a daemon as defined in Codex: Daemon Hunters.

[Morticon]

Seahawk - your opponent could place like that! There is nothing in the deepstrike rule preventing it.

However, doing so would automatically see the models deployed in that area destroyed.

I beleive it not being a "vallad deapstriking position" means that that it cannot be placed as such. Santuary creats an area that is treated as imppassable terain. Impassable terain cannot be deepstriked into from a misshap.

 

No offence meant matey, but you're making up rules now.

 

There is no "valid deepstriking position". You may place the unit anywhere on the table- even in impassible terrain!!!

The only thing is that if you land on that impassible terrain- you roll on the mishaps.

 

Additionally sanctuary does not create impassible terrain.

It creates an area that a unit may not enter or draw LOS through. If the unit does enter this- it is destroyed as per the Sanctuary rules.

If it lands within 3" = its destroyed. If it lands on the unit - it rolls mishap, since it hasnt landed yet.

 

Ntin - again, people may use the "most important rule" in this regard and choose to either include codex daemons or not do so. But as I said already, the biggest tourney in the US includes them, and the biggest tourney in the UK includes them. Is that not a good enough indication of how it should be played?

 

Depriving your mates of that fluffy ability that came off of an ancient and underpowered codex is a bit poor form, frankly. Its like a BA player demanding they get their apothecary save on failed vehicle cover saves (which is totally cool by RAW). Of course, if he thinks its no problem- then all good yeah?

[Ntin]

You would have to know the guy I guess, he is a huge power gamer. If I was playing some random Daemon Hunter player I would bring it up before hand to find some kind of agreement for RAI. I like arguing rules but I play the game for fun not for competition. Although Daemon Hunters in 3rd edition was a pretty powerful codex.

[Seahawk]

Seahawk - your opponent could place like that! There is nothing in the deepstrike rule preventing it.

However, doing so would automatically see the models deployed in that area destroyed.

I beleive it not being a "vallad deapstriking position" means that that it cannot be placed as such. Santuary creats an area that is treated as imppassable terain. Impassable terain cannot be deepstriked into from a misshap.

 

No offence meant matey, but you're making up rules now.

 

Additionally sanctuary does not create impassible terrain.

He's actually right. Sanctuary makes an area impassable to daemons (by whatever definition you choose). Also, going by page 14: "Models may not be placed in impassable terrain..." and combined with pg 95, you cannot deepstrike into impassable terrain except by extremely special rules. If you don't have said rules and scatter onto it, you roll for mishap, which cannot place models into impassable terrain either.

 

Basically the question is: can you place mishapped models into the bubble? One rule says they can "arrive" there but die, and another says they cannot be put there. Since the former is in a codex and codex>rulebook, effect?

[Morticon]

Seahawk - two things where you're wrong :P

 

Firstly, your Deep Strike rules are wrong according to Pg 95.

You can place the deep striking models "anywhere on the table" (pg 95- 2nd paragraph). This may be on impassible terrain etc. As this is "anywhere on the table".

There is nothing in the deep striking rules preventing you from doing so. The only consequence of doing this however, is if you model ends up there, you will roll on the mishap.

 

Secondly, your assumption that since the Sanctuary power creates an area that is impassible to demons that it is the same as "impassible terrain" is a logical fallacy.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck does not mean it is a duck by logic standards.

Just because the area may not be passed through by demons does not make it "impassible terrain". There is nothing to support this at all.

 

Additionally, I dont think the Hunters dex ever uses the term "impassible terrain" in relation to this power.

I dont have it open now, so if it does, then I happily retract the above comment.

 

Ntin- if your matey is a horrible gamey, rules lawyering monkey- then let the burning begin! -_-

[Seahawk]

Haha, read my first post with the included rule!

 

On the other, Sanctuary says: "Daemons may not move within 3" of the psyker for any reason - they treat this area as impassable.../...Any Daemon that enters play within 3"...is automatically destroyed."

[Ntin]

I am interested in how you equate impassible movement is different from impassible terrain.

 

Here is the relevant information though.

 

Sanctuary Codex: Daemon Hunters

“Sanctuary is a psychic power that may be used at the beginning of the psyker’s turn. Daemons may not move within 3” of the psykers for any reason – they treat this area as impassible and cannot draw line of sight through it…”

 

Deep strike mishaps

“If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed because they would land off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friend model or on top or within 1” of an enemy model something has gone wrong.”

 

Deep Strike mishap table

“Your opponent may deploy the unit anywhere on the table (excluding impassable terrain, but including difficult terrain, which of course is dangerous for deep striking units!), in a valid deep strike formation, but without rolling for scatter”

[Morticon]

I am interested in how you equate impassible movement is different from impassible terrain.

 

Because of the wording, in this case its not! I thought the rule said that this area could not be moved through- I didnt remember anything referencing "impassible"! So, definitely retracted there! Thanks for the info.

 

Here is the relevant information though.

 

Sanctuary Codex: Daemon Hunters

“Sanctuary is a psychic power that may be used at the beginning of the psyker’s turn. Daemons may not move within 3” of the psykers for any reason – they treat this area as impassible and cannot draw line of sight through it…”

This seems to imply they're one in the same as acknowledged above! My bad.

 

Deep strike mishaps

“If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed because they would land off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friend model or on top or within 1” of an enemy model something has gone wrong.”

 

 

 

Deep Strike mishap table

“Your opponent may deploy the unit anywhere on the table (excluding impassable terrain, but including difficult terrain, which of course is dangerous for deep striking units!), in a valid deep strike formation, but without rolling for scatter”

 

Is there a difference in the big book and the small book?! I cant find this text anywhere in my little book ^_^ *off to check*

 

 

edit: AAAh!!! You were quoting on of the lines from the mishap! Yeah, thats irrelevant to initial deep strike rules.

Still remains that you can place it anywhere. The reason they add that you cant place there is to prevent opponents from sticking you into/onto things that can kill you!

 

So, to answer seahawk- it still remains. You can still initially drop on there- but if you do, you roll mishaps

[Frosty the Pyro]

your still not quite on the same page, the whole scenerio was if he already misshaped, and the result from the misshap was misplaced (the one were your enemy gets to place you). We were never discussing the initial deapstrike. But it does seam like we are all in concensous now so props to that.

[Morticon]

Well colour me stupid. :devil: My bad.

 

sorry for skimming and derailing!! ><;

 

:lol: you guys must have been like "what the heck is this dude on about!!

[Seahawk]

Heh, pretty much. Silly Mort.

 

However, concerning the original deep strike, you cannot choose a point in impassable terrain either, putting the kabosh on the "putting drop pods on units then rolling for scatter" issue from a while back. Technical wordiness takes care of it; see pages 14 and 95.

 

"Models may not be placed in impassable terrain..." (14)

"First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table." (95)

 

So if you go by wordiness, you cannot deepstrike into impassable terrain (before rolling for scatter). If you scatter onto it, then mishap.

 

But back to the OP. Since the entire mishapped unit has to come down in a valid formation outside of impassable terrain, I guess that answers my question here, though I was hoping that only the first model had that restriction, as the part in Sanctuary about destroying any models that land in the bubble was pretty darn fun.