Which terminators?

[SoulReaver296]

So i picked up a AOBR box to get my Ork and SM armies started, and i've decided that i would like to start my SM army by going equal parts GK and vanilla SM. So which style of terminator (plain or assault) would work best with GKs? just a general question, as i'm still making an army list

 

NOTE: i have access to a bunch of spare terminator arms, so the modeling part isn't a problem

[spartan249]

With Inquisition as your main army, you can not have GK when you have allied space marines. So it's either SMs or GKs.

[SoulReaver296]

I meant having a base SM army, while using the allies rules to add in a large chunk of GK. i meant GK were my main army before, sorry for the confusion. Posting while having been awake 24 hours can be hazardous :D

[spartan249]

Oh, in that case, since GK terminators are pretty good at shooting, add in an assault terminator element with either TH/SS or DLCs. Or just go all shooty and use regular termies with CMLs.

[Valerian]

So i picked up a AOBR box to get my Ork and SM armies started, and i've decided that i would like to start my SM army by going equal parts GK and vanilla SM. So which style of terminator (plain or assault) would work best with GKs? just a general question, as i'm still making an army list

 

NOTE: i have access to a bunch of spare terminator arms, so the modeling part isn't a problem

 

My personal preference would be to not take any Terminator Squads from your base Space Marine army list, and take them only from the Grey Knights. The GKT, although quite a bit more expensive, combine the best of Shooting and Assault capability into the same unit.

 

V

[number6]

y personal preference would be to not take any Terminator Squads from your base Space Marine army list, and take them only from the Grey Knights. The GKT, although quite a bit more expensive, combine the best of Shooting and Assault capability into the same unit.

 

V

I agree. In almost all respects, GKTs are superior assault terminators to anything the basic Astartes have. They even outperform Vulkanized TH/SS termies against most targets. One of the few exceptions is when attacking vehicles -- not something you should be doing with terminators anyway as a general rule.

 

If you want Grey Knights, then take Grey Knights. :) Don't be wishy-washy about it.

[Valerian]

y personal preference would be to not take any Terminator Squads from your base Space Marine army list, and take them only from the Grey Knights. The GKT, although quite a bit more expensive, combine the best of Shooting and Assault capability into the same unit.

 

V

I agree. In almost all respects, GKTs are superior assault terminators to anything the basic Astartes have. They even outperform Vulkanized TH/SS termies against most targets. One of the few exceptions is when attacking vehicles -- not something you should be doing with terminators anyway as a general rule.

 

If you want Grey Knights, then take Grey Knights. :P Don't be wishy-washy about it.

 

And now to elaborate just a bit, a helpful technique might be to select your "core" of Grey Knights first. Figure out what you want to take out of your allowable 1HQ, 1 Elite, 2 Troops, and 1 Fast Attack choices available from the units that you intend to ally in. Once you've figured these out, then go back to your "primary" army (the Space Marines) and figure out what units from that list can be taken to best support the Grey Knights to allow them to accomplish what you want them to. You still have to take 1HQ and 2 Troops minimum from your base Space Marine list, so pick units that augment/enhance your Grey Knights. This is your opportunity to take units that a pure Daemonhunters codex army won't allow, such as Land Speeders, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Sternguard in Drop Pods, a Chaplain, Scouts, etc.

 

You should have a pretty good idea of what the Grey Knights' shortcomings/vulnerabilities are, so take units that offset those vulnerabilties to get the best of both worlds. It's a good deal, actually, that you can take advantage of mixing and matching to take the best from multiple codices. This ability is likely to go away if the Daemonhunter (and SOB) codices are ever updated, but for now run with it. Just make sure the units that you select all support one another.

 

V

[avatar8481]

They even outperform Vulkanized TH/SS termies against most targets.

 

Until they get shot/meet power weapons then you'll wish you had that 3++. TH/SS Vulkan marines are the most points efficient assault squad in the game probably.

 

200 points of GKT = BC (base wargear) and 3 GKT w/base wargear

 

200 points of TH/SS (assume no vulkan) = 5 guys

 

IF GKT charge then: 13 S6 WS5 attacks, 2/3 hit so 8.6 hits of which 7.2 wound, 2.4 failed saves (2 deaths), so 3 guys hit back causing 3 hits, 2.5 wounds and 1.66 wounds (2 deaths) tie combat

 

Next round: BC and 1 GKT get 5 attacks, hit 3.3 times, wound 2.7 times, 1.85 wounds (2 deaths). One TH/SS guy left hits once wound 5/6 of the time and is saved 5/6 of the time causing one more death. Ignoring running.

 

BC strikes back 2 hits, 1.66 wounds 1.11 wound, last TH/SS dies. Combat to GKT

 

If TH/SS charge

 

BC/GKT get 9 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2 deaths. 3 guys strike back, 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 3 deaths. BC and 1 guy strike back 5 attacks 3.3 hits, 2.7 wounds, 1 death. Two TH/SS guys strike back, 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.66 wounds, 1 death. BC strikes back 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.66 wounds, 1 death, 1 guys strikes back, 1 hit, 1 death, TH/SS wins.

 

And they would have won by a wider margin with Vulkan.

[Validar]

while I applaud the calculations above, there is a few things that I think you should take into account aswell.

The GKT have shrouding, so they'll be harder to shoot down (if you intend to mount them in a LR, then nevermind this)

The GKT can shoot and they even have access to weapon upgrades without loosing the nemesis weapon (correct?)

The GKT always gets an extra attack due to true grit, which means that when they do not suffer from being charged to the same degree as the terminators do.

The GKT are fearless, which isn't exactly a good thing against terminators, since they instagib your unit if you flee - but in many situations it means that you can count on your terminators being where you want them to be.

 

If anyone with a rulebook at hand tells me I'm wrong, then I will stand corrected - this is just from the top of my head :D

[Souba]

while I applaud the calculations above, there is a few things that I think you should take into account aswell.

The GKT have shrouding, so they'll be harder to shoot down (if you intend to mount them in a LR, then nevermind this)

The GKT can shoot and they even have access to weapon upgrades without loosing the nemesis weapon (correct?)

The GKT always gets an extra attack due to true grit, which means that when they do not suffer from being charged to the same degree as the terminators do.

The GKT are fearless, which isn't exactly a good thing against terminators, since they instagib your unit if you flee - but in many situations it means that you can count on your terminators being where you want them to be.

 

If anyone with a rulebook at hand tells me I'm wrong, then I will stand corrected - this is just from the top of my head :)

 

to 1. shoruding really is an awesome ability. saved my butt multiple times now and i dont wanna miss it anymore.

to 2. only one GKT in the unit may change his storm bolter to an Psycannon or an Incinerator. the other option is to switch the NFW and stormbolter for TH&SS

to 3. Sadly, true grit only works on GK in Power armor so i dont think it will work on GKT wich really is a shame. asked at my local GW for it too as i first started playing them. so normal GK have the same amount of attacks as Terminators have.

to 4. Fearless sometimes really hurts sometimes but as you stated, yes it can often work out pretty well because of that

 

while i really love the GKT i often use normal GK because of 2 reasons 1. cheaper and 2. im am incredibly lucky with them @ assault. the most awesome moment was when i had a game where i played with a WH ally against a 2k Space wolf player (WH and me both 1k each). his 5 Assault terminators with TH/SS bound in assault by 5 normal GK...for 3 rounds! the end result was that my Justicar killed the last 2 of his Terminators and stood there as the only survivor. the emperor really was on my side that day.

[SamaNagol]

You forgot to factor in shooting before the charge with Storm Bolters.

[avatar8481]

The GKT have shrouding, so they'll be harder to shoot down (if you intend to mount them in a LR, then nevermind this)

The GKT can shoot and they even have access to weapon upgrades without loosing the nemesis weapon (correct?)

The GKT always gets an extra attack due to true grit, which means that when they do not suffer from being charged to the same degree as the terminators do.

The GKT are fearless, which isn't exactly a good thing against terminators, since they instagib your unit if you flee - but in many situations it means that you can count on your terminators being where you want them to be.

 

True, but we're considering only unit on unit and the TH/SS guys have no guns. Also, if your GKT (or TH/SS for that matter) don't come into assault from a landraider you're doing tactics wrong.

 

GKT can shoot, but that only makes them better on the charge, the turn they get charged it's irrelevant (and they already win on the charge). 4 storm bolters cause 6.66 hits 3.33 wounds and .55 unsaved wounds, so call it one death before combat.

 

GKT don't get true grit, only for power armor.

 

GKT I ignored the effect of psychology for this exercise, since most rounds the combats were tied or the margins so small as to be irrelevant (1/6 of one wound isn't enough to kill a guy (statistically)).

 

Don't get me wrong, I love GKT, but on the battlefield I'd rather have my 3++ in almost every situation.