Template weapon woes

[thade]

The BRB is pretty clear that you can't place a template such that it falls over a friendl model, giving no exceptions for anything (i.e. whether it could possibly hurt the model or if the model is in your on unit).

 

So, it's clear that you can't place a template such that it falls on a member of your own unit, e.g. the flamer guy in a tac squad can't fire his flamer if there's another model between him and his intended target (and he can't aim around the guy). He can fire his bolt pistol (if he has one) otherwise, he auto-misses, yes?

 

Here's the kicker. Land Raider Redeemer. It itself is a friendly model/i]. The Flamestorm cannons cannot possibly hurt the Land Raider. But it can't aim the flame storm cannon such that the template falls over itself, i.e. it's forward firing arc is necessarily restricted, as the template can't go over the front treads.

 

What about firing a flamer from a Rhino? The template would be over the Rhino from the hatch, no?

 

This seems cut and dry to me; am I missing anything?

[wizard12]

I don't think FS cannons have that problem really. If your facing an opponent straight on then you could just pivot (dosn't count as moving apparently) into position.

 

also, if I remeber correctly the flamer from a rhino is resolve by mesuring from the hull. use the serch function for a better explination

[thade]

I don't think FS cannons have that problem really. If your facing an opponent straight on then you could just pivot (dosn't count as moving apparently) into position.

Consider the case where you can potentially fire both Flamestorm cannons at a unit to your front and you want to optimize the number of models you get the templates over. In this case, it would be very convenient to be able to place the templates with some over lap (otherwise a unit could "hide" in front of the Redeemer by tightening up).

 

also, if I remeber correctly the flamer from a rhino is resolve by mesuring from the hull. use the serch function for a better explination

Again, my search-fu failed me; hence, this post.

[BrotherZaah]

(otherwise a unit could "hide" in front of the Redeemer by tightening up).

 

If by hide you mean 'bunch up for the terminators inside and the assault cannon on top' then yes ;)

 

There is no hiding from redemption.

[KhorneHunter57x]

And also, what about the twin Heavy Flamer Razorback?

[jeffersonian000]

No where in the rulebook does it state that a model is "friendly" with itself, yet under the template rules it specifically advises us to place the template in contact with the firing model while under embarked units firing from transport fire points, it advises us to treat the vehicle as the firer for measuring ranges for attacks. As such, Heavy Flamer Razorbacks, Sister of Battle Immolators, and any unit firing flamers from within a Rhino or Chimera simply place the template so that its small end is in contact with the hull. There is no chance that damage will be done to the vehicle, as it is counted as the firer for these purposes.

 

As to Redeemers and their Flamestorm cannons crossing its own hull, if you are placing the template against the nozzle (or where the nozzle should be if the cannon is glued into its mount), you are following the rules as written. As such, no issues.

 

SJ

[Grey Mage]

Agreed, if you fire out of the vehicle its no different than firing from the marine himself- even if it is modeled that it covers part of his own base he is not hit.

[nighthawks]

in general - based models use the base, not the model itself, for measuring to and from.

vehicles measure distnaces from the hull, ranges from the weapon muzzle, LOS from the mount. the template froma vehicle rules are not specifically addressed. as such, some play from hull, others from muzzle of the template weapon, but the weapon shuld never hurt the firing model - I think that much is generally agreed upon.

[thade]

So...this boils down to whether the LRR (or a model in general) is considered a "friendly model of itself" as to whether the template can be placed with some overlap on the LRR's hull.

 

Certainly it can't hurt the Redeemer, but this isn't a question of danger; it's a question of legality.

[nighthawks]

it doesn't boil down to that at all. it's a question of how to place the template, to the hull or the muzzle. the model cannot shoot itself with a template (blast markers scattering back are the only way to shoot yourself that I can think of).

[Mycroft Holmes]

So, it's clear that you can't place a template such that it falls on a member of your own unit, e.g. the flamer guy in a tac squad can't fire his flamer if there's another model between him and his intended target (and he can't aim around the guy). He can fire his bolt pistol (if he has one) otherwise, he auto-misses, yes?

 

 

Actually, I do believe you can fire a flamer over a member of your own squad. Somewhere in the shooting section I believe it mentions that members of a unit move out of the way and don't impact shooting from other members of the unit. I'm at work; and BRB-less, so hopefully someone can scan the relevant section.

 

Mycroft

[thade]

Actually, I do believe you can fire a flamer over a member of your own squad. Somewhere in the shooting section I believe it mentions that members of a unit move out of the way and don't impact shooting from other members of the unit. I'm at work; and BRB-less, so hopefully someone can scan the relevant section.

The quote you're probably referring to is the one that says you can trace Line of Sight though members of the same unit. The template rule is pretty clear; you can't place the template such that any part of it falls over any friendly model.

 

That's what I'm focusing on here. It is physically possible to place the LRR's flamer template such that part of the template falls over the lead tread on the same side. Is this legal? That is my question.

[hisdudeness]

Jeffersonia000, you are mistaken. All weapon ranges are measured from the weapon muzzle and LOS is determined along the barrel (p56) as per last paragraph on the page as nighthawks stated. His statement about where to measure a template is incorrect; the range for a template weapon is the template. We measure weapon ranges from the muzzle, thus we place the small end on the muzzle.

 

I see nothing that says you cannot place a template of the vehicle that is firing it. I see no difference than a heavy flamer razorback targeting a unit in front of it. The only thing I can see limiting the Firestorm from shooting a target ‘hidden’ in front is if the cannon can draw LOS to the target unit.

 

The issue is this, if you say the template cannot cover the firing vehicle, flamerbacks cannot shoot the turret mounted flamer. Then the LLR cannot cover itself with a template. If you say the flamerbacks can fire its main turret, then the LLR can cover itself with a template. Can’t have both.

[nighthawks]

just a heads up, the topic of "flamerbacks" (nice) came up a while back and met with a stalemate - thus my determination that the "question" with regard to template weapons concerns placement at muzzle or hull.

 

personally, I say muzzle.

[hisdudeness]

AH, just serched and found 2 of them here and here for some more references. Thanks nighthawks.

 

To me, with a pinch of common sense, my above statement is valid.

 

Frankly, the template from the hull is just abusive and wrong. You gain an extra 0.5 to 3 inches on range with the template from the hull for a flamerback. You can also turn it all about and line up the template to cover an entire side. That is about as cheese as you can get.

 

Either way, you must still draw LOS to the unit and hull blocks LOS so there is a small triangle of safety that about 3 25mm bases can hide.

[Grey Mage]

AH, just serched and found 2 of them here and here for some more references. Thanks nighthawks.

 

To me, with a pinch of common sense, my above statement is valid.

 

Frankly, the template from the hull is just abusive and wrong. You gain an extra 0.5 to 3 inches on range with the template from the hull for a flamerback. You can also turn it all about and line up the template to cover an entire side. That is about as cheese as you can get.

 

Either way, you must still draw LOS to the unit and hull blocks LOS so there is a small triangle of safety that about 3 25mm bases can hide.

Unless your heavy flamers were modified from lascannons, like one guy I know....

[jeffersonian000]

Re-read my post, Hisdudeness. I stated that attacks from an embarked unit are measured from the vehicle's fire point, which does mean that the template should be place with the small end against the vehicles hull.

 

SJ

[hisdudeness]

Ah, jeffersonian000 that seems to be the core of the problem others have. But I am pretty sure on p66 (Fire Points) we are told to measure "from the fire port itself." You may be thinking of the line under the ‘embarking’ paragraph, but shooting is specifically exempted. The range of a flamer is the template. So we place the small end at some point on the fire point. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

To say you cannot do this is the same as saying that a flamerback cannot fire as (unless you lengthen the barrels) the small end of the template will cover itself. Which is to further say that GW released an unplayable model.

 

Not buying it, anyone (IMO) that plays templates from vehicles/embarked models as measured from the hull is just playing cheese.

[Ignatius]

You guys do realise that you don't have to mount the flame storms on the sponsons! The wargear section simply says which weapons the redeemer is armed with not where they are placed, you can mount them where the assault cannons are if you wish to improve forward firing, but the sponsons are better because of the front entry hatch. Also it helps to mount the sponsons at the front rather than the back. Same with the razor back you can mount the heavy flamers on the front cupolas if you wish.

 

But on to the issue, it's simple place the template small end to flamestorm/heavy flamer nozzle and that's it, it may go over the hull if you wish as long as you can draw line of sight to the target.

 

I

[thade]

I may have to sit down with my models and a camera tonight to show you all what I mean; I fear it's slipping by.

 

We have a LRR facing a line of ten marines; it's perpendicular to them, so both Flamestorms can trace LOS. Lets assume that the LRR can fire both of it's Flamestorms this turn. We place the template from the fire points (as is appropriate) and decide to place the templates such that part of each are over the front treads, maximizing the number of marines we can get under the templates.

 

Is this placement legal?

 

We are placing a template over a "friendly model" if the LRR is "friendly" to itself, in which case it's illegal. If it's legal, well the Flamestorm can't hurt the Raider anyway, so it's a good idea.

[Ignatius]

I may have to sit down with my models and a camera tonight to show you all what I mean; I fear it's slipping by.

 

We have a LRR facing a line of ten marines; it's perpendicular to them, so both Flamestorms can trace LOS. Lets assume that the LRR can fire both of it's Flamestorms this turn. We place the template from the fire points (as is appropriate) and decide to place the templates such that part of each are over the front treads, maximizing the number of marines we can get under the templates.

 

Is this placement legal?

 

We are placing a template over a "friendly model" if the LRR is "friendly" to itself, in which case it's illegal. If it's legal, well the Flamestorm can't hurt the Raider anyway, so it's a good idea.

 

Yes as the Land Raider Redeemer isn't a friendly model it's the firing model, you can't technically be friendly to your self, only to something or someone else! Bear in mind both flamestorm cannons have to draw line of sight to the target, (doesn't sound and issue in this case).

 

I

[hisdudeness]

Thade, here is a quick Vassal of how I understand the problem. The Left being no self-overlap and the Right is with self-overlap. Also added a Flamerback and a flmaer embarked Rhino for reference.

 

I say the right is just as valid as the left. I we believe that the right is invalid than the Flamerback is also invalid.

 

 

 

 

 

http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss48/hisdudeness69/Example.jpg

 

 

http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss48/hisdudeness69/Flamerback.jpghttp://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss48/hisdudeness69/Embarkedrhino.jpg

[KhorneHunter57x]

I agree that self-overlap is legal. Otherwise, the Flamerback can not legally fire. (and then why would you pay extra points for a Rhino with less capacity?)

[Deus de Mortalis]

I'm almost positive there is a FAQ where flamers from transports are specifically said to fire from any point on the perimeter of the hull, and not from where it would realistically shoot from. The rules for template weapons say "place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it," so it isn't firing from the gun itself. In the case of the razorback, this might also hold true. For the LRR, it is not like that since the guns are in sponsons and can fire without touching the tank itself.

 

I really think that the super loose interpretation of "friendly models" is wrong and that you can't place a template over any part of your own vehicle. If you take it that far, you can say that one flamestorm cannon can fire from one side of the tank to the other. Being able to shoot through your own vehicle, regardless of weapon just seems wrong.

[Ignatius]

I really think that the super loose interpretation of "friendly models" is wrong and that you can't place a template over any part of your own vehicle. If you take it that far, you can say that one flamestorm cannon can fire from one side of the tank to the other. Being able to shoot through your own vehicle, regardless of weapon just seems wrong.

 

Not really because of fire arcs and the weapon must draw lin of sight to the target, the landraider will still block line of sight for its own weapons!

 

I