Template weapon woes

[hisdudeness]

OK, Answer these questions and apply the rules.

 

What is the range of a flamer? A:template

 

Where do you measure weapons range from a vehicle? A: from the muzzle.

 

Where do you measure weapons ranges from a model that is embarked? A: from the fire point.

 

The pictures above show the rules being put in effect.

 

 

Measuring flamers from the hull is rubbish. Adding .5 to 3 inches to the range of a flamer is also rubbish. That is a super loose interpretation.

 

After thinking about it, a good rules of thumb might be to line up the centerline of the template with the centerline of the barrel for flamers and flamstorms that are on vehicles. This will allow a little bit of front corner overlap but not defying the laws of physics at the same time.

 

Embarked models still place the template from the fire point, as the picture above shows.

[rat of vengence]

I'm almost positive there is a FAQ where flamers from transports are specifically said to fire from any point on the perimeter of the hull, and not from where it would realistically shoot from. The rules for template weapons say "place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it," so it isn't firing from the gun itself. In the case of the razorback, this might also hold true. For the LRR, it is not like that since the guns are in sponsons and can fire without touching the tank itself.

 

I really think that the super loose interpretation of "friendly models" is wrong and that you can't place a template over any part of your own vehicle. If you take it that far, you can say that one flamestorm cannon can fire from one side of the tank to the other. Being able to shoot through your own vehicle, regardless of weapon just seems wrong.

Well, either we place the template at the edge of the vehicle (waiting on FAQ quote DdM) and gain range/angle from it or we place it on the firing point, and overlap the vehicle.

 

If an opponent claimed I couldn't overlap the vehicle then I would suggest the first option as being the only alternative. I know which the opponent would rather have.

When in doubt I go with the least adventageous option; noone has accused me of manipulating rules to my benefit yet <_<

 

RoV

[Deus de Mortalis]

I'm almost positive there is a FAQ where flamers from transports are specifically said to fire from any point on the perimeter of the hull, and not from where it would realistically shoot from. The rules for template weapons say "place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it," so it isn't firing from the gun itself. In the case of the razorback, this might also hold true. For the LRR, it is not like that since the guns are in sponsons and can fire without touching the tank itself.

 

I really think that the super loose interpretation of "friendly models" is wrong and that you can't place a template over any part of your own vehicle. If you take it that far, you can say that one flamestorm cannon can fire from one side of the tank to the other. Being able to shoot through your own vehicle, regardless of weapon just seems wrong.

Well, either we place the template at the edge of the vehicle (waiting on FAQ quote DdM) and gain range/angle from it or we place it on the firing point, and overlap the vehicle.

 

If an opponent claimed I couldn't overlap the vehicle then I would suggest the first option as being the only alternative. I know which the opponent would rather have.

When in doubt I go with the least adventageous option; noone has accused me of manipulating rules to my benefit yet ;)

 

RoV

Sorry, I wasn't thinking straight. There isn't an FAQ, at least none that I could find. I was confusing the rhino with open-topped transports, like the LSS. I still think the rules are pretty clear that you can't lay any part of the template over any friendlies, but I wouldn't stop you from doing that. I think this is one of those things that GW will never rule on and instead put out garbage, most of which is obvious, in their FAQ instead of focusing on real conundrums faced by players.

[nighthawks]

I would add that, while nowhere stated explicitly, having the flamer barrel and the template line up, not at an angle to each other. if I can't fire my lascannon around the front of my tank, I can't fire my flamestorm that way.

 

as for the range questions, should one remain, remember also that for based models, ALL ranges are measured to the base. throw those rules out when measuring from vehicle weapons and then follow what was written by hisdudeness in post #26 above.

[rat of vengence]

I would add that, while nowhere stated explicitly, having the flamer barrel and the template line up, not at an angle to each other. if I can't fire my lascannon around the front of my tank, I can't fire my flamestorm that way.

Absolutely. Angling it for advantage is not on imo.

 

RoV

[thade]

I think as long as you maintain that each cannon must still draw LOS to the target unit, that will prevent exploitation in the way you fear? (If I understand it correctly.) So you could still place the template(s) over the hull from the LRR's flamestorms in an effort to get more noob chaos marines under them for max hits, but you'd have to have each cannon draw LOS to that unit first.

[rat of vengence]

If we look at the rather good picture done by hisdudeness on the previous page, the Landraider one, I think we can see how the templates are pointing in a direction that the gun barrels cannot traverse. I agree with Nighthawks that this is not a nice way to play, even though there is no specific wording saying we must do it a particular way asaik. It goes against the grain of pinting the gun at the enemy, and firing that direction. I am not worried about the template overlapping the vehcile somewhat, it is a question of 'does the weapon bear on the target?

 

RoV

[hisdudeness]

This is what I get using the template and staying on the centerline of the barrel. I think this is perfectly valid. So if the targeted unit has models to the right of the red line I would say they are fair game for the flamestorm. It follows all rules rules for shooting, but "friendly" argument and the template "hit as many models as you can" rule. The red line is the barrel centerline.

 

http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss48/hisdudeness69/IMG_1733.jpg

[nighthawks]

back that red line a few degrees so that it doesn't overplap the tank, and I have no issue - it's hard to say from an overhead if LOS from the gun mount (along the barrel) would be blocked, but it certainly crosses the hull. you still need LOS. I have absolutely no problem with the flame template crossing the hull, even if it COULD glance or penetrate the armour of the firing tank.

 

it's just silly for a firing model to be assumed to hurt itself, barrage and ordinance weapons excluded per RAW.

[hisdudeness]

AH, my bad! I put the wrong pic up. The one I ment to put up had the center line 'grazing' the front corner. Didn't even notice. But completely agree with what you said, nighthawks.

[rat of vengence]

Yup, that sounds totally fair :)

 

RoV

[thade]

Something new came out regarding this at my club and I wanted to point it out here.

 

Sponson Firing arc is barely enough to allow this to happen. So that that, Thade. You were wrong.

 

Geez, ease up, Thade.

 

Sorry, Thade.