Pre heresy imperial fists.

[LordSion]

not sure if this has been asked before (possibly by me...) or covered elsewhere, but would the black templar codex work for representing pre heresy imperal fists? or would it be best to stick with codex space marines?

[Wolf Lord Mjolnir]

I think Codex Space Marines would be the better codex. IF are a codex chapter - the Black Templars is an extreme embodiment of an element of the IF personality.

[Ufthak]

Hm...unfortunately we as yet know little of the Imperial Fists during the Heresy. But generally I think we can accept that their doctrines were similar to post-Heresy:

They were siege masters - ergo the use of heavily armoured assault units (especially terminators), heavy siege weaponry (such as vindicators, whirlwinds, and infantry heavy weapons); they were extremely able defenders - ergo a focus on discipline and long- to medium-range weaponry rather than close combat; they were masters of urban warfare - which, on the other other hand, implies close combat weaponry such as flamers; and they were very stubborn and highly disciplined.

 

Really, unfortunately there is little which coincides with Codex Black Templars, save perhaps the stubborness (fearless?). So I would really use the Codex: Space Marines.

 

 

But if you REALLY want to use the Codex Black Templars, then you can use your Imperial Fist Force as part of Sigismund's 1st Grand Company - who knows, perhaps they were already slightly templar-y back then.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

But if you REALLY want to use the Codex Black Templars, then you can use your Imperial Fist Force as part of Sigismund's 1st Grand Company - who knows, perhaps they were already slightly templar-y back then.

 

yea, you dont go crazy overnight...something tells me Sigismund was slightly overzealous in his duties prior to the Heresy as well.

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

But if you REALLY want to use the Codex Black Templars, then you can use your Imperial Fist Force as part of Sigismund's 1st Grand Company - who knows, perhaps they were already slightly templar-y back then.

 

yea, you dont go crazy overnight...something tells me Sigismund was slightly overzealous in his duties prior to the Heresy as well.

 

WLK

 

Overzealous? Pfff, those words don't even go together. :devil:

 

I am with Ufthak on how the IF rolled pre-Heresy. I don't know how that would look on the table-top though. I could imagine in A-poc having 1k of C:BT and 2k of C:SM.

 

IF would come and deliver the killing blow after another legion had pinned them down ~ a bit like intuitive hunting dogs working together.

Terminators, Ironclads, Vindicators, Land raiders and that kind of nut-cracker stuff.

 

BoLS downloads.

Tempus forum downloads.

 

Those two links might help.

 

IF did not fight like 40K Marines in the Codex:Astartes. Of the IF whole, the zealous became BT, the new became CF and the most loyal remained IF after the Iron Cage incident and Dorn crusading after the Traitors. Dorn had to remould the IF after a 20 year "sabbatical".

[Captain Juan Juarez]

IIRC when the Legion was spilt, those who formed the Black Templar Chapter were its most zealous marines.

Each of the Successors after the breaking of the Legio Fists emobodied a single aspect that made the whole that were the Imperial Fists.

 

But as for the Legion as a whole, the Fists were sige-experts.

Remember, it irked Perturabo that the Legion were chosen to fortify Terra when he felt his Legion were as exalted, if not more so, in the same field.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Hehe, the Space Wolf calls *us* crazy?

 

Irony :lol:

[c-wrex]

I haven't read the Index Astartes article for the Fists in some time, but I seem to recall a bit where it said the Fists fought in a standard company formation. It may or not have been something similar to a modern codex battle company organization. All of their companies were organized identically during the heresy. Now, that's just what I think I remember, if somebody has the IA then feel free to contradict me.

[Octavulg]

What c-wrex remembers is from the IA. Identical company structures, quite inflexible. Siege masters.

[c-wrex]

What c-wrex remembers is from the IA. Identical company structures, quite inflexible. Siege masters.

 

But there is so much more to them than that. The Imperial Fists and Rogal Dorn were masters of aggressive defense. Basically, they never just sat around and waited for an enemy to stumble into them. They would launch a quick strike to take an area of importance to the foe, then clear out the surrounding terrain, be it forest or hive or cave, and then dare the enemy to come and take it back.

 

Know that bit where the Fists explain they don't use camouflage because they want the enemy to see them coming? Apply that here. The Fists take over a area, place all of their heavy weapons, tanks, scouts, terminators, dreadnoughts, thunderfires, and all the rest in the most perfect defensive positions, then they wait and allow the foe to come to them and walk into their prepared areas of kill-ery.

[Octavulg]

There is more to them then that.

 

However, that's pretty much the extent of what's in the IA on their preheresy tactics.

 

What you describe would appear to be a poor fit with what the IA says:

"Initially, the Imperial Fists were an inflexible formation; each Company had an identical organisation and Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative. Overall planning was excellent, however, and this, coupled with the unshakeable determination of the individual Fists, made them an excellent assault formation against static defences. Throughout the Great Crusade, the Imperial Fists would be held in reserve waiting while other Legions pinned the enemy in position and identified the keystone of their defence. Inevitably, that position would then be shattered by the Fists. They were equally valuable when resolutely blocking, and often totally defeated enemy breakthroughs."

[c-wrex]

Yes Octavulg but that's when they were working in concert with other legions, and in these times of independent chapters, this kind of fight is no longer possible.

[Octavulg]

Uh...have you looked at the thread title? And the forum section?

[c-wrex]

Forum section? Thread titles? What are these things you mention? :)

 

Even during the Heresy it's not likely that they fought every battle they did as a coalition of legionary forces. It is far more likely that they fought most of their battles as an independent force. Therefore, they couldn't spend every battle waiting for their brothers in arms (who were likely Imperial Army for the vast majority of the Fists battles) to expose an enemy weak point. They had to make the enemy expose himself and his weaknesses to them (the Fists).

[Beef]

What I want to know is that if the templars exemplefied their more zealous nature what did the crimson fists represent and for that matter the "out of nowhere chapter2 the sould drinkers?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

What I want to know is that if the templars exemplefied their more zealous nature what did the crimson fists represent and for that matter the "out of nowhere chapter2 the sould drinkers?

 

Tempus Forum did a pdf for Heresy Era.

 

Damocharis was named as Captain of the SD. His buff was that he made IF Vanguard as scoring.

 

SD were supposedly a planetary assault company.

[Brother Masariel]

you can find a quite exaustive list example and pecific sege character for them in BOLS warhammer 30'000 codex.. :D

they have a land raider formation full of termies supposed to break any siege with a sortié..