WitchHunters Codex Questions..

[FC Ironheart]

Hi guys.

 

Rather odd question, on two notes.

 

Was chatting with a friend about the forthcoming sisters army im building, and a couple of questions popped up.

 

Firstly, Land Raiders.

 

Now that the "Dedicated Transport" rule has been removed, is there anything legitimately stopping me from buying 2 Land Raiders without specifying to which unit they are attached to? (I appreciate this may seem a little loop-whole mongering). This would quite happily shore up any loss of long range firepower one imagines!

 

Secondly, (and this is a long shot) The Immolater. Currently the rules say "if the unit counts 6 models or less"- I interpret this as literally- 6 models OR less then 6 models.. but what if it starts with 10? Does this still "allow" the unit to HAVE an immolater as an option, even if it cant USE it? Does it then become "banned" from being purchased?

 

Sorry to bombard with questions, just keen to know before I start buying shiny toys..

 

(if all else fails Ill just buy two cheap Inq Lords to get the Land Raiders!)

[Legatus]

The concept of dedicated transports still exists. They can now also transport other units, but one rule they have to follow is that only the unit tey were bought for may start the game in them (or no unit). You could start the game with a different unit in a dedicated transport, but that unit could then embark the dedicated transport in turn one.

 

In recent Codices GW has removed the squad size limitations for transports. Space Marine squads can now get a Razorback even if the squad is too big to fit in. The Codex Witch Hunters still contains that limitation, and unless that is removed in an FaQ they would still have to abide by that limitation.

[nighthawks]

Dedicated transports are alive and well but the rules for their use has changed. they are purchased as transports for units from their army list entry. sisters don't have the option of purchasing a LR as a DT, so no dice. you can, however, take them for inquisitors as you suggest and then drive the sisters around in them - that's perfectly legal. caveat being that the sisters cannot start the game embarked in the LR as it is not their trasport.

 

Immolators are allowed for units of 6 or less models. the wording means that you cannot purchase an immolator for a unit of 7+ models. it was like that in older versions of C:SM as well (razorbacks). thems the breaks.

 

edit: ninja'ed by L...

[FC Ironheart]

Hi once again.

 

I will try and ask this without sounding rude or obnoxious.. but where is the rule which says the Transports "must" be purchased for a particular unit?

 

Im looking in the WH Codex. Entries under "Transport" (IE- no restrictions here saying MUST be bought for a unit) They are, effectively un-organized (for FO purposes) yet there is no part in the codex which specifically states they MUST be bought for a unit, or simply CANT be bought?

 

Perhaps im being over-zealous here, but im certain that although certain units CAN take a Rhino/Immolator (or in Inq example a Land Raider) but I see no reason why I cant simply "buy" them? Is there such specific stipulation? Or is that just RAI?

[Legatus]

Witchhunters page 33 is titeled "Transports", and it includes the Chimera, the Rhino and the Land Raider. The first sentence on that page reads:

 

"Transports are allways taken as an upgrade for another unit and may only transport the unit it was bought for."

 

But that were the old 3rd and 4th Edition rules for Transports. Strictly speaking you would have to go with the Codex, but i am sure players will agree for you to use the new rules for Dedicated Transports on page 67 of the 5th Edition Rulebook.

 

 

Immolators are not listed on that page. They are a distinct Heavy Support choice and can be bouth as such (they will take up a Heavy Support slot as would any other choice). Such an Immolator is not a dedicated transport and can start teh game with any unit inside you want.

 

However, some units (like Celestians, Dominions or Retributors) can get an Immolator as a transport option. In that case the Immolator is bought as a dedicated Transport. It does not take up a force organisation slot, but it can start the game only with the unit inside it was bought for.

[FC Ironheart]

Im sorry, but huh?

 

My Transports section (Page 33) which says the following (without cut and paste)

 

The transports listed here may be equipped with any of the following upgrades for the cost listed in the Witch Hunters Armoury. Dozer blade, ea, h-k missile, pintle mounted SB, searchlight, smoke launcher. in addition, any Adeptus sororitas vehicle may be equipped with the following upgrades- blessed ammunition, holy icon, loud Hailer. No upgrade can be chosen more then once.

 

For the record, this is the LATEST printing of the WH codex.

 

Does this mean that part of the codex you have has been removed? If necessary I am happy to scan the above page for reference!

[FC Ironheart]

http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww144/Siobhanmamcneaney/UpdatedIphone037.jpg

I have attached this for effect- to clearly show I do not have said stipulation in my codex and im not trying to be difficult!

[Legatus]

I see. I assume GW removed tat part since it was in contradiction to the 5th Edition rules. The box also used to declare that independent Characters that joined the unit can be trabsported as well (kind of redundant), and that when the unit consisted of models with a lower than 3+ save used the top hatch fire point of the Rhino it would count as open topped in the next turn.

 

I guess what we now are supposed to go by is simply that the page is titeled "Transports". It was a bit more clear in the older prints.

[FC Ironheart]

Legatus!

 

Have to take my hat off to GW on this one- Clearly, they either werent thinking of the consequences of taking that sentence out, or (im hoping) they have seen what it could mean for SOB players...

 

So based upon that, is your initial theory disproved? Can I now purchase "transports" without "transportees" ?

 

Despite them not being FO chart options, that isnt a rule breaker, is it?

 

What say you?

[Legatus]

I wish it were more clearly labeled, but the "Transport" title still makes it discernible as an irregular army list entry in my opinion. There have been different conventions in different Codices in the past. Some have a section labeled "Transports" or even "Dedicated Transports", and that section usually includes an introducing Text (as previous prints of the Codex WH did). On the other hand, in the Codex Tau the Devilfish is not graphically set aside from the main army list in any way and is merely named "Transport: Devilfish" as the sole indicator for it's nature. I can certainly understand why it can lead to confusion for players without a lot of Codex experience (not meant derogatory, such players exist and as new players join allways will), but I think someone who has read a few Codices and is familiar with the whole "dedicated transport" system can still recognise the vehicles on that page as dedicated transports.

 

 

I am not sure how game breaking it would be to let Witchhunters take Chimeras, Rhinos and Land Raiders without buying them for a unit. But Sisters of Battle are not really supposed to have Land Raiders. They are usually Astartes vehicles, and perhaps influential Inquisitors gat get one.

[FC Ironheart]

Legatus.

 

I value your opinion (although I can proudly say I am by no means a novice, playing this game for over 15 years and with a Chapter of Relictors to call my own) and I see what your implying.

 

However, what makes it a little less sure is that just because it "isnt" a FO option, does that then make it a necessarily unfair decision? Or, more to the point, an illegal entry?

 

I admit, im at a loss as to what other unit has this same "feature".

 

If Sisters werent supposed to use Land Raiders, why are they there? They are, after all, Imperial vehicles... I dont see it as any less inconceivable that they are able to use them then a single Inquisitor, really (I mean come on, its a Land Raider!)

 

My sentiments are that if the wording of the Devilfish lends credence to the thought that it cannot be purchased seperately, then it cannot be. In this codex, however, it is one of those "different rules" (a la Storm Shields- My argument is Dark Angels, for example, have to endure 1 form of them, whilst SM get the better version, same for Smoke Launchers, etc etc).

 

Given that I see no boundaries to be marked against, wouldnt you agree on that? That this is more of a Codex Specific "loophole" if you will (albeit in my opinion not a bad one, as it clearly does NOT mention being unable to purchase).

[Legatus]

However, what makes it a little less sure is that just because it "isnt" a FO option, does that then make it a necessarily unfair decision? Or, more to the point, an illegal entry?

I am not sure whether it would be unfair to use Sisters of Battle with Land Raiders (as an Elite choice). For the purpose of this thread I am only arguing that it is not what the army list allows you to do.

 

 

If Sisters werent supposed to use Land Raiders, why are they there?

Because it is not the "Codex Sister of Battle". Inquisitors can use Land Raiders. You can play an army from Codex Witch Hunters without any Sisters of Battle units at all (which is the only way you are allowed to take allied Space Marine units). If Sisters of Battle were using Land Raiders, it stands to reason that it would be a regular Heavy Support entry for them, or at least available as a dedicated transport for Celestian Retinues.

 

 

My sentiments are that if the wording of the Devilfish lends credence to the thought that it cannot be purchased seperately, then it cannot be.

The devilfish is pretty much the entry with the least implication that it might be anything other than a regular unit choice. The entry is not set apart from the other entries by being indented or inside a box. But where other choices are titeled "Kroot Carnivore Squad" or "Hammerhead Gunship", this one is titeled "Transport: Devilfish Troop Carrier". That, and the side-line which reads "Troops", "Elite" etc. for each individual entry reads "Transport" for the Devilfish.

 

The Rhino, Chimera and Land Raider in Codex With Hunters are grouped together on a page with the title "Transports" in all capital letters (like the FoC slot titles, though smaller size, but unlike unit titles), which sets them apart from the other choices of the List. I could not think of another reason why they would be labeled that way. The Immolator, for eyample, isn't. Army list entries are usually not labeled according to their specific battlefield role (like "Mainstay Infantry" or "Battle Tank" or "Ranged Support" etc.). But there is a reason why entries would be labeled as "Transports".

[GTang]

If the unit entry doesn't give an option to purchase it, it's not an option to buy it. Troop units of sisters can only get Rhinos if they're 10 models or less because that's what the listing says. Currently, only Inquisitors with retinues have an option to get Land Raiders. Inquisitors and IST can get Chimeras. If there's no entry to buy it separately, like there is for the Immolator, they can't be bought separately either. Unlike the DH Codex, once purchased Adeptus Sororitas can ride in them.

[Frosty the Pyro]

You are still limited by your FOC. As nowhere in their rules does it say they do not take up FOC slots, then they DO take up a FOC slot. You have no "transport" slots. You have troop slots, elite slots, hq slots, heavy support slots, fast attack slots. No transport slots. Fortunatly Dedicated transports are the same type of choice as the unit they are dedicated to and do not take up a slot. Non-dedicated transports have so such benifit. So unless you can produce a FOC with transport choices, you may not simply take them anymore than you can take a 7th heavy support choice. Unless you are in apacolypse of course, were the FOC is thrown out the window.

[FC Ironheart]

GTang.

 

What counts as an entry? From what I can see there is clearly an entry for it, its just that its not Elite, Troops, HQ, Fast Attack or Heavy Support. It is, however, still clearly an Entry, and has both upgrade abilities, armour, skills etc..

 

So far as I can see, thus far, there isnt any steadfast rule that is denying it. There is sentiment, of course, and that I appreciate. In all honesty im not sure Land Raiders would make a SOB list any stronger on the majority, but thats okay, this is more for fun.

 

What im looking for is specific rules which say "you CANNOT take this option, regardless" over "It cant be taken"- without a rule which says that. From where im sitting, although you are correct that it is not Heavy Support- its still in the Codex, and thus, the Sisters can take it. I am not going for a moment to pretend the Sisters have an option in their specific notes to say that THEY can choose it as a DT, but as far as I can see theres no mention of these "transports" being DT or even NEEDING to be DT. From where I sit, it looks as if I can take 2 Sisters of Battle squads, a Cannoness, and as many Land Raiders and Chimeras as I so wish. ( not that i am planning to but you get my point).

 

I personally think this is a bit of a loop hole, yes, and I will be sure to ask my Gaming group what they think (giving my argument for) and if the overwhelming response is negative, well, theres the decision. But i was hoping someone could aim me in the direction of a rule which specificcally dfenies it that ISNT fluff orientated (despite their being no real fluff against it) or personal opinion (not that im saying they dont count)

 

 

Frosty- THe WH does not have LR as a Heavy Support Option- They are NOT HEAVY SUPPORT CHOICES!

So, to summarize.

 

Can Sisters take Land Raiders without having to "dedicate?"

 

Back up to support:

 

No section (in this print of codex) under "Transport" which DENIES this option.

 

Land Raider is a specific entry- it has a points cost, upgrades allowable, armour ratings and BS, also includes which weapons, and access points. It ALSO allows 10 models. It does NOT specify that these CANNOT be sisters or otherwise. (in theory it could carry ten Terminators, if you were of that disposition)

 

This edition of the Codex WH does NOT deny the use of Transports for alternative squads. It does NOT have any sentence in it that involves "allowing units to purchase the option" or such- IE, there is no evidence that I can find that supports any theory that Sisters CANNOT have these in their army. I am NOT concerned about the Transport side- just that CAN THEY USE THEM?

 

Thats my argument for the use of Land Raiders in the SOB army.

 

Thanks!

[FC Ironheart]

To continue on Frosty's point- By what means does them being a Transport entry make it an illegal entry?

 

 

Are we using the FOC as an example? If so, Im at a loss to argue so much as point out that this is asking that units are kept to those maximum, but doesnt make a reference to "transports". If this makes them completely illegal at all, then I suppose that is a reasonable argument in one respect.

 

But again, because it is not a HS choice it thus is illegal? How so? Does the BGB say that?

[nighthawks]

wow -

 

OK - the understanding is that transports are purchased in the "dedicated" sense. C:WH is not at all clear about this, and the heading of the section is "TRANSPORTS" as your oh-so illegal scan above, which I am going to to allow hesitantly based on it's worthiness in this discussion, not "dedicated transports." I do see the loophole, however. there is no note regarding their entries as specific to transport upgrades of other units only, and they are presented in such a way as to suggest that they can be purchased piecemeal.

 

so the way I see it: you can play as the rules are understood, effectively adding "dedicated" to TRANSPORTS

 

OR you can abuse the RAW loophole BUT I would then argue that each transport selected would be an ELITE choice, as that is preceding greater heading. the word "TRANSPORTS" is in roughly the same size as all other elite entry titles, centered above the available choices in the same way as well. the typeface does change, but there's no precedent suggesting that this matters.

 

and for what its worth the printing shown above dates back years, at least 1 year before 5th ed. came about as that's when I got my copy which matches FC Ironheart's. it is not a 5th ed. change.

[GTang]

What counts as an entry? From what I can see there is clearly an entry for it, its just that its not Elite, Troops, HQ, Fast Attack or Heavy Support. It is, however, still clearly an Entry, and has both upgrade abilities, armour, skills etc..

If you want to argue that the transports are choices, they are Elite choices. That's where they're located in the Codex.

[FC Ironheart]

Hi guys.

 

I see the logic there, and I can agree to that- being that the last entry is in the Elites Section, (and yes, you are entirely correct the Transports header is not the same as the 5 FOC name entries.)

 

Thanks for that, and I appreciate the opinions and suggestions- I don't think that im being a "rules lawyer" or such, just that it would seem that this is an option available that could be a genuine upside to the Sisters lack of Long Range weaponry (and heavy armour).

 

I won't be taking this list to tournaments, more for gaming clubs that are near to me, and I was just hoping that either there was a definitive yes or overriding no!

 

Thanks again!

[number6]

There was indeed a WH codex reprint. In the reprint, GW corrected a few errors. I happen to own the reprinted version of the WH codex, and along with the rules verbiage for allying/inducting being changed, the language regarding transports was also changed. GW removed the portion of the sentence that still remains in the DH codex:

 

Transports are always taken as an upgrade for another unit and may only transport the unit it was bought for.

 

Thus, there is no loophole being exploited. You can buy an Inquisitor with a retinue, buy them a "dedicated" land raider, and let somebody else borrow that land raider after the game begins.

[ArmouredWing]

Hi guys.

 

I see the logic there, and I can agree to that- being that the last entry is in the Elites Section, (and yes, you are entirely correct the Transports header is not the same as the 5 FOC name entries.)

 

Thanks for that, and I appreciate the opinions and suggestions- I don't think that im being a "rules lawyer" or such, just that it would seem that this is an option available that could be a genuine upside to the Sisters lack of Long Range weaponry (and heavy armour).

 

I won't be taking this list to tournaments, more for gaming clubs that are near to me, and I was just hoping that either there was a definitive yes or overriding no!

 

Thanks again!

Well, I think on the balance of response it seems to be a resounding no.

 

As said before the unit entries in the WH codex state the options available to the unit and that includes weapons, upgrades and vehicles. There are ways to get around some of the restrictions, such as a canoness or palatine (if my memory serves me correctly) does not have access to a transport on their own, however put a celestian retinue with them and they get the option because it's listed in the celestian unit entry.

 

I'd have to say that when it comes to LR's the codex has been out way long enough for people to try and work out ways to get them into a pure SoB roster, but there's no loophole there to achieve it. You want a LR then you've got to get an =][= in there. At no point does it say in any of the SoB unit entries that they can get a LR, or put another way just because it doesn't say you can't do it doesn't mean that you can.

[bystrom]

If, as Legatus has said, the old wording in C:WH is:

"Transports are always taken as an upgrade for another unit and may only transport the unit it was bought for."

And you combine it with the Witchhunters FAQ:

Transports

The second print run of the Codex removed

references to a transport vehicle only being

usable by the unit that bought it .

Then I think number6 has summed up the whole argumentation against choosing transports without dedicating it to a unit.

 

There was indeed a WH codex reprint. In the reprint, GW corrected a few errors. I happen to own the reprinted version of the WH codex, and along with the rules verbiage for allying/inducting being changed, the language regarding transports was also changed. GW removed the portion of the sentence that still remains in the DH codex:

 

Transports are always taken as an upgrade for another unit and may only transport the unit it was bought for.

 

 

Thus, there is no loophole being exploited. You can buy an Inquisitor with a retinue, buy them a "dedicated" land raider, and let somebody else borrow that land raider after the game begins.