Dangerous Terrain Test w/ Jump Infantry

[Silluen]

Recently, my local players have argued with a problem and cannot find a CORRECT answer. Because my mother tounge is NOT english, there're difficulties to fully understand the text.

 

Here goes a describtion of Jump Infantry in the first part of 5ed rule book.

 

===========

JUMP INFANTRY

Jump infantry are equipped with jump packs, jet packs, sometimes wings, ...[bla]. Jump infantry can move like normal infantry or activate their jump device to make a high-speed move, combining some of the best elements of both mounted and ordinary infantry. ...[bla]

===========

 

and "Unt Types" part, they say

 

===========

JUMP INFANTRY

...

- Movement

Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish. When using jump packs, movement is not reduced for difficult terrain, and jump pack equipped models can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.

 

- Assault

Jump infantry assault 6" like normal infantry. This move is slowed by difficult terrain in the same way as other infantry, because the unit always covers the last few yards of an assault on foot.

===========

 

As stressed in bold, Jump Infantry can choose to move on foot. So I thought if they land in open terrain and assault into forest or something is NOT a kind of situation that causes Dangerous Terrain Tests! But some insisted they have to. That is the part I've confused.

 

Question is, "Do ALL Jump Infantry's movements(including Assault move) into/out of difficult terrain cause Dangerous Terrain Tests, no matter how they move(with Jump Packs or on foot)?"

 

The sentence starts with "However" in [JUMP INFANTRY - Movement] section stands against all three sentences or just one sentence before it?

 

I really need your help~

[Arschbombe]

Jump Infantry don't take dangerous terrain tests when they assault into difficult terrain because they do that on foot. They do take dangerous terrain tests when they jump into or out of difficult terrain, but that happens in the movement phase, not the assault phase. So if an assault squad was in woods and jumped out they take the test. Then if as part of the same move they land in more difficult terrain they take another test. However, if they choose not to jump, they can move on foot and roll difficult terrain like normal infantry. They can't combine move types. So they can't walk 3" to clear the woods and then jump 9" more. They have to pick one or the other.

[Silluen]

Jump Infantry don't take dangerous terrain tests when they assault into difficult terrain because they do that on foot. They do take dangerous terrain tests when they jump into or out of difficult terrain, but that happens in the movement phase, not the assault phase. So if an assault squad was in woods and jumped out they take the test. Then if as part of the same move they land in more difficult terrain they take another test. However, if they choose not to jump, they can move on foot and roll difficult terrain like normal infantry. They can't combine move types. So they can't walk 3" to clear the woods and then jump 9" more. They have to pick one or the other.

 

Hahaha~ Combining two types of movement is something I never have imagined~ :) I mean land in open terrain at movemet phase and then assault into difficult terrain at assault phase. Except that thing, it's just the way I have thought!

 

Anyway thanx for your answer.

[Silluen]

And here comes a bigger problem! One of the guys who thought Jump Infantry must take dangerous terrain test in any circumstances comes out to be THE ONLY ONE Miniature Game Shop keeper in Korea~! (Yes, I'm a Korean, South!! Not North with nuke-armed bad guy. Market is small but here ARE 40k players. Fantasy and Warmachine also.)

 

He treated me like an idiot and told everyone else my understanding of the part of this problem comes from LACK OF MY ENGLISH ABILITY~! :)

 

But something interesting is he has an e-mail that - he insists - Adam Troke, one of developers of 5th Edition, had sent to him. These are screenshots he have posted his own blog. What do you guys think about this? I think Adam's answer IS something like an idiot and lacks a sense of reponsibility, he only justifies his own view without solving a problem with confusing text!

 

...I become curious that all other developers would say in the same way.

 

 

screenshot #1 - http://pds15.egloos.com/pds/200911/29/09/c...11f290374bb.jpg

 

screenshot #2 - http://pds16.egloos.com/pds/200911/29/09/c...11f2a05072d.jpg

[Redo]

Politely ask the shopkeeper to read p.52 again. "Jump Infantry". "Assault; assault 6" like normal infrantry...because the unit always covers the last few yards of an assault on foot."

 

Hence they should take a difficult terrain test when assaulting through cover but it shoulf n be a dangersous terrain test too as they are now on foot. Besides you can only take dangerous terrain tests in the movement phase.

 

The email seems to be giving the shopkeeper the right to bend the rules in order to make things simple...looks like he has opened a can of worms as I play in both Germany and Australia (English and German) and the rules are interpreted in the above way.

[Silluen]

Politely ask the shopkeeper to read p.52 again. "Jump Infantry". "Assault; assault 6" like normal infrantry...because the unit always covers the last few yards of an assault on foot."

 

Hence they should take a difficult terrain test when assaulting through cover but it shoulf n be a dangersous terrain test too as they are now on foot. Besides you can only take dangerous terrain tests in the movement phase.

 

The email seems to be giving the shopkeeper the right to bend the rules in order to make things simple...looks like he has opened a can of worms as I play in both Germany and Australia (English and German) and the rules are interpreted in the above way.

 

Thanx for your answer~ :D

 

And what do you think about "walking Assault Squad." in movement phase? Do your friends and you take dangerous terrain test when Jump Infantry choose to move into/out of difficult terrain on foot in movement phase? I think they don't have to.

[gustmic]

When the assault squad opts not to use their jump packs (thus moving up to 12"), they move up to 6" like normal infantry.

Like normal infantry, they do not roll for dangerous terrain, but only difficult terrain when they do not use their jump packs.

 

/gustmic

[pingo]

Maybe I'm cynical, but I do not believe those screenshots are of a genuine email from Adam Troke.

 

The kinds of spelling/grammar/vocabulary errors are hallmarks of the kinds of errors 2nd language English speakers can often make, but 1st language English speakers would be very unlikely to make.

[nighthawks]

I agree with Pingo regardign the authenticity of the email. note, though, that there is no reference to assault in them, so they are of no use in this debate, no matter their origin.

 

I think a "simplified" ruling would be ANY movement phase movment of Jump infantry, moving by jump or on foot, would trigger a dangerous terrain test as described in the jump infantry movement rules. the rules do not make a distinction between the two, so in the face of that ambiguity it's an easy (if unsensible, and likely wrong by intent) reading. the argument in the email referring to the cumbersome weight of the jump pack etc... is good justification.

 

HOWEVER:

asault moves are very clear, - difficult terrain is treated just like regular infantry. no dangerous tests are noted in jump or normal infantry assualt rules. that's pretty clear.

 

one must seperate the literal meaning of "movement" from their understanding of the game rules. "movement" is the first game turn phase. "assualt" is the third. assaults have an "assault move" but due to the conventions of english and the rather sloppy, narrative nature of GW's writing, the word "move" gets used all over both sections and other rules as well. there's no simple synonym that flows as well, so it's understandable that this confusion happens. it must be a little less easily distinguished by second-language readers, particularly those from places where the language and cultural mechanics are so different from english / england.

[Silluen]

nighthawks // So, you think dangerous terrain tests only occur in movement phase. It's quite reasonable and simple!

 

Thanx for your answer~

[Seahawk]

I don't have my book on my right now, but it says you test for every model that has "entered, left, or moved through dangerous terrain," so it can be triggered in the assault phase as you'll be entering it then. There's no distinction for "only movement phase," as it can happen whenever something moves, be it movement, shooting, or assault phases. I think it's even in the assault phase section when dealing with charging through various types of terrain.

 

But to the OP: You can fly in the movement phase but are forced to walk in the assault phase, hence no dangerous terrain tests then as you're not using your jump pack.

[thade]

Also keep in mind that if this is flying Vanguard we're talking about and they have Storm Shields for the 3+ invuln (or a flying Chaplain or Captain with their 4+ invuln saves) that you can take that invulnerable save versus the dangerous terrain test. A small, often over-looked factor.

 

This may be the only reason it's worthwhile to put a storm shield on a normal Assault Squad sergeant, as he should never take saves against attacks unless everyone else in the squad has, but he'd have to take his own invuln save versus failed danger terrain tests.

[Silluen]

For me, it's a kind of miracle. Someone answers, I think he's right. Another one comes and answers differently, it seems very rational.

 

Are you guys genius? Or, am I just a fool? ^_^

 

Seahawk // Thanks for your answer. I can also accept your explanation. Nice & clear~!

[thade]

Perhaps I should have added this to just add weight to the consensus...

 

You only take dangerous terrain tests when jumping into difficult terrain during the Movement Phase. Whenever you move like normal infantry, you do not take dangerous terrain tests for moving in to difficult; this includes the Assault phase (as you move as normal infantry then). In short, I agree with what everyone here has been trying to tell you. =)

[igotsmeakabob!!]

Please note that if you're playing with Space Wolves players, their Rune Priest power that makes the entire area dangerous terrain WILL work on your assault marines even if they choose to move on foot, as the power specifically affect Jump Infantry the unit type.

[Deus de Mortalis]

Please note that if you're playing with Space Wolves players, their Rune Priest power that makes the entire area dangerous terrain WILL work on your assault marines even if they choose to move on foot, as the power specifically affect Jump Infantry the unit type.

 

Clearly an oversight, but RAW nonetheless.

[Seahawk]

Are you guys genius? Or, am I just a fool?

Clearly a fool ;), for if you read page 34 in the BRB it says, under Moving Assaulting Models: "Roll for difficult or dangerous terrain if necessary..."

[nighthawks]

A valid argument could be made that moving up to 6" through difficult terrain would NOT incur a dangerous test for Jump infantry - but the statement on BRB P.52 "if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain..." suggests that the JI suffer this weather they move as JI or as normal infantry. additionally, the same page seperates assault phase differences (as do all "unit types" entries) from movement, stating that "this move is slowed by difficult terrain in the same way as other infantry..." which, from the general assault and movement phase rules does not incurr a dangerous test.

 

if someone asked that I NOT require them to take a dangerous test for their jump infantry that chose to move on foot and take a difficult terrain test rather than a full 12" I would think it logical and acquiesce, but by RAW it's arguable that any JI "model" moving into or out of difficult terrain is to take a dangerous test.

 

Silluen - the fool may be the one who spends all of his time staring at rulebooks for toy dolls rather than playing with them :rolleyes: , but who am I to judge?

[igotsmeakabob!!]

but the statement on BRB P.52 "if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain..." suggests that the JI suffer this weather they move as JI or as normal infantry.

Doesn't even suggest. It states! Weird, that's something to remember... Whether it's RAI or not, I don't know.

[SeattleDV8]

Not really BRB pg 52 "This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry...."

If and only if they use their Jump jets (or Packs) are they required to take the Dangerous terrain tests.

You need to read the entire movement section in context.

[nighthawks]

If I were making the call in a friendly game, S-DV8, I would agree with you. the test says "jump infantry model" and makes no mention of its movement style with regard to the dangerous test. a JI model or unit moving as infantry is still a JI model / unit of models. as this is a no logic, just RAW kinda place, I have to go with that interpretation. there's no literal context that would allow me to assign the dangerous tests to models moving in one way so long as they remain models of a certain type.

[bystrom]

===========

JUMP INFANTRY

...

- Movement

Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish. When using jump packs, movement is not reduced for difficult terrain, and jump pack equipped models can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.

 

- Assault

Jump infantry assault 6" like normal infantry. This move is slowed by difficult terrain in the same way as other infantry, because the unit always covers the last few yards of an assault on foot.

===========

I'll start off by saying that I agree that assault moves don't trigger dangerous terrain tests, as jump infantry follow normal infantry rules except for the differences listed below (as per the rulebook). The differences in an assault is that jump infantry assault the same distance as normal infantry (first sentence) and is slowed down just like normal. These three parts effectively say that jump infantry work just as normal (several times).

 

While I've always thought that dangerous terrain tests were only triggered when using jump packs, interesting arguments have come up. I'd like to add another argument for the way I've played, namely looking as well at the sentence before the one that causes problems.

It says: When using jump packs [bla bla]. However, [bla bla]. Doesn't the However refer to the sentence before, which only talks about movement of jump infantry using jump packs?

[igotsmeakabob!!]

If I were making the call in a friendly game, S-DV8, I would agree with you. the test says "jump infantry model" and makes no mention of its movement style with regard to the dangerous test. a JI model or unit moving as infantry is still a JI model / unit of models. as this is a no logic, just RAW kinda place, I have to go with that interpretation. there's no literal context that would allow me to assign the dangerous tests to models moving in one way so long as they remain models of a certain type.

Yup. I don't know if it's RAI, as it's worded it affects Jump Infantry unit types, regardless of how they're choosing to move.. just like the SW Rune Priest power. Doesn't make sense, but it's RAW.

[Silluen]

Yup. I don't know if it's RAI, as it's worded it affects Jump Infantry unit types, regardless of how they're choosing to move.. just like the SW Rune Priest power. Doesn't make sense, but it's RAW.

 

I know what is the words on SW Rune Priest power, and agree with your idea. It's very clear. But I think moving JI is a bit different. BRB p.52 says "When using jump packs, ...... However......" just as [bystrom] had pointed. And especially on Assault, plz read Bikes-Assault. They've been told to take the tests, but JI not. The difference is "like normal infantry" and if this also is RAW, "as normal infantry" in JI-Movement IS RAW. For normal infantry, there's no dangerous terrain test when they dicide to 'walk' into difficult terrain. JI is infantry who can choose to jump up because they have means to jump.

 

Is there anything wrong with my logic?

[Seahawk]

Nope, you're on target now :tu: