Attacks from Saga of the Warrior Born

[rahl02]

yeah, some of us are saying that you can put wounds received from shooting onto them, just not wounds targetted on the IC in combat.

 

others are arguing differently, and saying that they can take wounds directed against the IC in combat, thus taking power fit attacks etc to prevent instant death.

 

it depends on which side of the line you stand as to what you decide to do with them.

 

 

The wolves for a sort of "mini" unit with the Wolf Lord. Basically here's how that works in close combat. You assault a 10 man unit with your wolf lord (say old Rags) and 10 Grey Hunters, and 3 of the 10 man squad are in B2B with Rags and his 2 wolves. The rest are in B2B with the Grey Hunters. One of the 3 in combat with Ragnar has a power fist, (hoping to one shot him.) When his attacks come around assuming no other deaths. The player owning Ragnar may allocate wounds caused by that power fist to the wolves. As they are a wargear option and form a "mini" unit with him, and what do IC count as in combat? That's right a "mini" unit.

 

So yes Wolves taken as wargear can be used as ablative wounds for IC in close combat. As they do not take away his IC status. Think of them like the tau drones mentioned before, they don't stop the IC to lose their IC status, as they can join other units as well.

[stinkenheim]

can you show me where it says that in their rules.

 

it may well be the intention but there are no rules to support that theory.

you may houserule it as such, but without any actual rules written into either the codex or the BRB you can't do it .

[Stormshrug]

I'd love to see the rules on that, too. Mostly because I'd very much like them to be true.

 

-Stormshrug

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

Retinues

 

Some Codex books allow you to field characters

together with a special unit that they cannot leave

during the game (which is normally called a ‘retinue’,

‘bodyguard’ or similar). Where this is the case, the

character counts as an upgrade character until all of

the other members of this unit are killed, at which

point it starts counting as an independent character

and it will do so for the rest of the game.

 

After reading this straight from the core book, I would have to disagree with the particular point of the wolves not taking away his IC status, as this rule states that they do. No, there is no mention in the SW codex of a retinue rule or the wolves having it, but when you look at the Retinue rule in the main book as it is written, it makes allowance for such circumstances by describing the function of the wolves and then further stating that it is 'normally' called a retinue or bodyguard. It does not say that they are always labeled or always must be labeled specifically as a retinue or a bodyguard. Does this or does this not, as it is written, describe the fenrisian wolves bought as wargear for the WL etc. ?

[stinkenheim]

if they were a retinue they would have that special rule, or a special rule pertaining to such. also if they were a retinue then the character would be unable to join other units.

 

note the line in the rule above 'which is normally caled a retinue, bodyguard or something similar'. there is no such rule for the wolves rought as wagear. they also do not have rules like acolytes or IG bodyguard which speciy they are able to take wounds alocated against the character.

 

is there anything in the fenrisian wolves rules which stop the character from being an IC? No

is there anything in those rules which allow the character to pass off wounds specifically directed at him? No

 

the only rules mentioned for fenrisian wolves are that they take 2 spaces in a vehicle. thats it. nothing else is said about them, as such it must be assumed that they do not count as a retinue, nor can they take wounds directed against the character.

 

some say they should function like tau drones, as i don'tcurrently have access to that codex i am assuming they have specific rules detailing what they can and can't do and how they can take wounds for characters. if they do would someone be kind enough to post them here please so that we can compare what is written in the 3 books (C:SW, C:Tau + BRB)

[Stormshrug]

Retinues

 

Some Codex books allow you to field characters

together with a special unit that they cannot leave

during the game (which is normally called a ‘retinue’,

‘bodyguard’ or similar). Where this is the case, the

character counts as an upgrade character until all of

the other members of this unit are killed, at which

point it starts counting as an independent character

and it will do so for the rest of the game.

 

After reading this straight from the core book, I would have to disagree with the particular point of the wolves not taking away his IC status, as this rule states that they do. No, there is no mention in the SW codex of a retinue rule or the wolves having it, but when you look at the Retinue rule in the main book as it is written, it makes allowance for such circumstances by describing the function of the wolves and then further stating that it is 'normally' called a retinue or bodyguard. It does not say that they are always labeled or always must be labeled specifically as a retinue or a bodyguard. Does this or does this not, as it is written, describe the fenrisian wolves bought as wargear for the WL etc. ?

 

So the question really seems to come down to "Are Fenrisian Wolves 'purchased as Wargear'" considered to be a 'Bodyguard' or 'Retinue' even though it nowhere explicitly states that they are or are not such.

 

I love this game, but man, a tabletop war simulation shouldn't force one to have debates about whether or not we should be loose or strict constructionists to determine allotment of wounds. Whenever any question ends up as a matter of beliefs instead of facts, you're going to have a lot of trouble getting people to agree about it. The lack of official comment on this is pretty annoying.

 

-Stormshrug

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

Some Codex books allow you to field characters

together with a special unit that they cannot leave

during the game (which is normally called a ‘retinue’,

‘bodyguard’ or similar). Where this is the case, the

character counts as an upgrade character until all of

the other members of this unit are killed, at which

point it starts counting as an independent character

and it will do so for the rest of the game.

 

"to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game" sounds exactly like the wolves to me, as it states in the SW codex under Loyal Companions. And for those who keep pointing to the Daemonhunters example, you're also saying the wolves are wargear, which I do not disagree with, but the Lord's retinue is as well. The familiars, acolytes, etc. are all listed in the armoury section of the codex. Their "status" as a retinue is imaginary. It's not written as a rule. Retinue is the heading given to the entry that allows you to select those pieces of WARGEAR from the armoury. I guess we're just going to have to agree to play this two different ways until something official is written.

[Grey Mage]

as wargear they shouldn't prevent him from joining a unit, but without rules to support your statement (like bodyguards/acolytes have in their respective codex) i think it is unfair t assume they can be allocated wounds.

 

as for why take wargear if it can't be used, i do take two wolves for my lord, they help with dishing out a couple of attacks before my terminators strike (the curse of thunderhammerS) and against my usual opponent (orks) it hels to reduce the number coming back at me. they are also nice if i get shot up by high ap weaponry as i usually sacrifice them to help save my more expensive terminators from death.

 

they do have their uses, i just personally feel it is pushing to assume they can e used as ablative wounds when everything else that is treated that way makes specific mention of it. these don't, they have no 'retinue' rule, no rule about being used to soak up wounds in combat, the only mention they have in the codex is about taking two spaces in a transport. you want me to prove where it says they can't be used to take wounds, well sow m where it says they can, because an often used arguement on these forums is if it doesn' say you can then you can't.

 

i apologise if my post comes across as hostile, agressive or sarcastic that isn't my intention, but don't begin to give special rules to things which don't have them. houserule it that way in your own games by all means but without there being more evidence to support that stance im not playing it that way. if it gets faq'd differently bonus to me and kudos to those who guessed right, but until then im not using them as ablative wounds in combat. is it really that big an issue?

They cant be just wargear- they are models, they have profiles, they are a unit. Just like when you take cyberwolves for an Iron Priest.

 

Thus, if your playing this way you cant have him join squads.

 

So... either they act like tau gundrones *the only precident we have* and can be assigned wounds targetted towards the IC *but using the standard allocation rules for a unit* or he cant joing a unit to begin with as he is already a part of one.

 

Im not trying to do anything special here, Im just saying if your going to add in rules *like being able to join a squad* then you might as well fully mirror the similar items already used, dont go half way.

 

is there anything in the fenrisian wolves rules which stop the character from being an IC? No

is there anything in those rules which allow the character to pass off wounds specifically directed at him? No

 

the only rules mentioned for fenrisian wolves are that they take 2 spaces in a vehicle. thats it. nothing else is said about them, as such it must be assumed that they do not count as a retinue, nor can they take wounds directed against the character.

 

some say they should function like tau drones, as i don'tcurrently have access to that codex i am assuming they have specific rules detailing what they can and can't do and how they can take wounds for characters. if they do would someone be kind enough to post them here please so that we can compare what is written in the 3 books (C:SW, C:Tau + BRB)

Tau Gundrone rules state the character using them can join a unit, and that their armor save is the same as the controlling model in all cases. You can assign wounds to a gun drone, but it has to be with normal wound allocation rules.

 

And as stated: They form a unit with the character, because it doesnt specificly state otherwise. Just like with an Iron Priest or Lone Wolf, his IC status still exists, but he cannot be part of two units at once.

[stinkenheim]

if you want to play it that the wolves form a retiue then fine, but if you do then you must follow the rest of the rules in tat paragraph and acceptthat the character cannot join any other units whilst the wolves are alive.

you can't have it both ways, and as i have said before, without there being a rule int he codex that allows them to take wounds allocated againts the character like acolytes and IG bodyguards do then they can't. i would comment about tau drones, but as i said i don't have the codex but it is a fair assumption that there will be a rule in there about how they operate with regards to taking wounds in place of characters.

 

tyrant guard are retinues, as it is in their rules, the old wolfguard were retinues as it was in their rules. there are no rules saying that fenrisian wolves brought as wargear are retinues.

 

as i say, if you want to play it that they are then fine, but you will also have to play that the character then loses his IC rule and so cannot join any other units whilst the wolves are still alive.

 

+EDIT+

it doesn't matter if they have models or not grey mage, they are still just wargear. grot ordelies and ammo runts have models, that doesn't mean they can take wounds. they are simply wargear in exactly the same way that they were in the old codex, and just like in the old dex they don't stop a character joining a unit (being part of the characters wargear they cannot be assumed to be a unit, merely an extention of the character) and just like in the old codex they can take wounds assigned to the unit from shooting but cannot take wounds specifically allocated againts the character either in close combat or from certain shooting attacks.

 

if you say they form a unit then you must also accept that a lone wolf cannot then take them as his ruling specifically prohibits him from joining a unit.

[Grey Mage]

+EDIT+

it doesn't matter if they have models or not grey mage, they are still just wargear. grot ordelies and ammo runts have models, that doesn't mean they can take wounds. they are simply wargear in exactly the same way that they were in the old codex, and just like in the old dex they don't stop a character joining a unit (being part of the characters wargear they cannot be assumed to be a unit, merely an extention of the character) and just like in the old codex they can take wounds assigned to the unit from shooting but cannot take wounds specifically allocated againts the character either in close combat or from certain shooting attacks.

Fenrisian wolves have something grot orderlies and ammo runts dont- a wound characteristic. They are a unit, because it doesnt say they are not- all models are units in this game if they have profiles.

 

If you want to say they are like the old fenrisian wolves in rules- then they would be a retinue, as the old fenrisian wolves could quite explicitly take wounds for their characters.

 

"but otherwise count as being part of the unit and may be taken as casualties in place of the character or in place of models in the unit they have joined." Wich is to say that after your wolf lord failed a save you could kill the wolf instead of the character RAW *note, casualtie, not wound*.

 

So, as I said... if he has wolves he cant RAW join a squad- he already has one with his furry friends.

 

Edit: Lone wolves dont join the unit, they are part of it from the begining, no rules are broken there.

[stinkenheim]

one question... how did we get from the number of attacks allowed by saga of the warrior born to a discussion on fenrisian wolves??

 

i also don't get why ragnars survivability has suddenly become an issue... hes the same as he was in the previous edition only nastier (furious charge and SOTWB)...

 

also grey mage, teach me to refer to a dex i haven't played with for about 6 months hey :)

 

*shrugs* eventually we may get an faq, and as i have said so many times before we'll see who wins the argument and kudos to them for guessing right... until then i'm playing the way i feel it should be played, if you guys and your opponents are happy to play it differently then so be it. good luck and take care i have goblins to paint....

[Stormshrug]

Some Codex books allow you to field characters

together with a special unit that they cannot leave

during the game (which is normally called a ‘retinue’,

‘bodyguard’ or similar). Where this is the case, the

character counts as an upgrade character until all of

the other members of this unit are killed, at which

point it starts counting as an independent character

and it will do so for the rest of the game.

 

I think the argument for hinges on this word right here: "normally." This qualifier leaves the door open for the possibility that there could be things treated as retinues/bodyguards which are not explicitly called such.

 

Ugh, this argument is silly.

 

-Stormshrug

[Grey Mage]

one question... how did we get from the number of attacks allowed by saga of the warrior born to a discussion on fenrisian wolves??

 

i also don't get why ragnars survivability has suddenly become an issue... hes the same as he was in the previous edition only nastier (furious charge and SOTWB)...

 

also grey mage, teach me to refer to a dex i haven't played with for about 6 months hey :)

 

*shrugs* eventually we may get an faq, and as i have said so many times before we'll see who wins the argument and kudos to them for guessing right... until then i'm playing the way i feel it should be played, if you guys and your opponents are happy to play it differently then so be it. good luck and take care i have goblins to paint....

Fair enough, Ive been using htem as drones and my opponents think its fair, what works in your neck of the woods works for you.

 

I totally agree on Ragnar... hes just as tough as ever, and alot killier.

[stinkenheim]

my throats dry from all the shouting earlier... i need to find some ale... and if im getting ale i need venison... which then needs more ale... this could be a long night followed by a painful morning :)

[Grey Mage]

*Flops down a tray of boar and taitters*

 

Sounds like a plan to me!

 

*hands over a drinking horn*

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

I'll go and find a few barrels of ale and some more drinking horns.

[rahl02]

if you want to play it that the wolves form a retiue then fine, but if you do then you must follow the rest of the rules in tat paragraph and acceptthat the character cannot join any other units whilst the wolves are alive.

you can't have it both ways, and as i have said before, without there being a rule int he codex that allows them to take wounds allocated againts the character like acolytes and IG bodyguards do then they can't. i would comment about tau drones, but as i said i don't have the codex but it is a fair assumption that there will be a rule in there about how they operate with regards to taking wounds in place of characters.

 

tyrant guard are retinues, as it is in their rules, the old wolfguard were retinues as it was in their rules. there are no rules saying that fenrisian wolves brought as wargear are retinues.

 

as i say, if you want to play it that they are then fine, but you will also have to play that the character then loses his IC rule and so cannot join any other units whilst the wolves are still alive.

 

+EDIT+

it doesn't matter if they have models or not grey mage, they are still just wargear. grot ordelies and ammo runts have models, that doesn't mean they can take wounds. they are simply wargear in exactly the same way that they were in the old codex, and just like in the old dex they don't stop a character joining a unit (being part of the characters wargear they cannot be assumed to be a unit, merely an extention of the character) and just like in the old codex they can take wounds assigned to the unit from shooting but cannot take wounds specifically allocated againts the character either in close combat or from certain shooting attacks.

 

if you say they form a unit then you must also accept that a lone wolf cannot then take them as his ruling specifically prohibits him from joining a unit.

 

 

Here's a quote DIRECTLY from the Tau FAQ which has an EXACT SAME circumstance that we're having here.

 

"When selecting your army, if you buy a Tau

character without a Bodyguard, he (and his

drones) may join/leave units as a normal

independent character. In combat, the character

(and his drones) count as a separate unit.

If, when selecting your army, you buy a Bodyguard

for a Tau character, the Bodyguard and the

character (and his drones) must be fielded as a

unit, as described for Retinues on page 48 of the

Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. In this case, the

character (and his drones) cannot leave the

Bodyguard unit. The character (and his drones)

are members of the unit in all respects. Only if the

entire Bodyguard is destroyed, the character

returns to being an independent character, as

described above."

 

Also I NEVER said that if an IC with Wolves fails a save you take a wolf. I said that you can allocate wounds to the wolves as part of wound allocation. It's the same with the drones. It doesn't change the fact that their still IC. Same goes for the Lone wolf, it's not a unit but wargear options. He's not an IC so his point is moot.

[SJumppanen]

Otherwise 10pts for an ablative Get Out Of Instant Death free card is WAY too cheap.

 

18p for a wolf guard isn't any cheaper considering that they have a much beter armour save and they can shoot.

[SamaNagol]

That Wolf Guard won't save Ragnar from a Power Fist either.

[Grey Mage]

Thank goodness he has a 4++ then.

 

Its not like hes any worse off than any other Marine HQ out there.

[rahl02]

Thank goodness he has a 4++ then.

 

Its not like hes any worse off than any other Marine HQ out there.

 

Except that some of them have Eternal Warrior and can't be one shotted by a power fist. Ragnar's better thank most with his 2 wolf buddies. I'd hate to loose a good HQ like say Sicarius, Khan, Shrike, or Vulkan to a lucky power fist. That'd piss me off.

[Grey Mage]

Thank goodness he has a 4++ then.

 

Its not like hes any worse off than any other Marine HQ out there.

 

Except that some of them have Eternal Warrior and can't be one shotted by a power fist. Ragnar's better thank most with his 2 wolf buddies. I'd hate to loose a good HQ like say Sicarius, Khan, Shrike, or Vulkan to a lucky power fist. That'd piss me off.

Yet Sicarious, Khan, Shrike, and Vulcan all lack eternal warrior or the ability to get a retinue.

[SJumppanen]

That Wolf Guard won't save Ragnar from a Power Fist either.

 

They do, when you don't need to allocate that wound to Ragnar.

[Grey Mage]

That Wolf Guard won't save Ragnar from a Power Fist either.

 

They do, when you don't need to allocate that wound to Ragnar.

You dont get to choose- your opponent decides what he rolls to hit again, the unit or the IC... and then wounds are carried out. Ragnar is a unit of one, so he never gets to "pass the buck".

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Thank goodness he has a 4++ then.

 

Its not like hes any worse off than any other Marine HQ out there.

 

Except that some of them have Eternal Warrior and can't be one shotted by a power fist. Ragnar's better thank most with his 2 wolf buddies. I'd hate to loose a good HQ like say Sicarius, Khan, Shrike, or Vulkan to a lucky power fist. That'd piss me off.

Yet Sicarious, Khan, Shrike, and Vulcan all lack eternal warrior or the ability to get a retinue.

 

I believe that both Sicarious and Shrike can get retinues (Command Squads)

and Vulkan comes with a 3++

 

WLK