Attacks from Saga of the Warrior Born

[Grey Mage]

Thank goodness he has a 4++ then.

 

Its not like hes any worse off than any other Marine HQ out there.

 

Except that some of them have Eternal Warrior and can't be one shotted by a power fist. Ragnar's better thank most with his 2 wolf buddies. I'd hate to loose a good HQ like say Sicarius, Khan, Shrike, or Vulkan to a lucky power fist. That'd piss me off.

Yet Sicarious, Khan, Shrike, and Vulcan all lack eternal warrior or the ability to get a retinue.

 

I believe that both Sicarious and Shrike can get retinues (Command Squads)

and Vulkan comes with a 3++

 

WLK

Command Squads are not retinues, they just grant the IC FNP. And yes, Vulkan has basicly a Storm Shield.... but its no eternal warrior.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

My mistake, one of the things that bothers me of the new book...

 

WLK

[SJumppanen]

That Wolf Guard won't save Ragnar from a Power Fist either.

 

They do, when you don't need to allocate that wound to Ragnar.

You dont get to choose- your opponent decides what he rolls to hit again, the unit or the IC... and then wounds are carried out. Ragnar is a unit of one, so he never gets to "pass the buck".

 

Excuse me but i do, it says that WGs can be used as bodyguards for SW characters.

[Hfran Morkai]

Doesn't the model that wants to attack an IC have to be engaged with said IC? Therefore do your best to keep Ragnar/other IC's away from the powerfist toting monster. Eternal warrior just means you can be as reckless as you like.

 

(As an aside sniping Ragnar from a WG unit with lascannon is fun, when he fails to dodge it)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Doesn't the model that wants to attack an IC have to be engaged with said IC? Therefore do your best to keep Ragnar/other IC's away from the powerfist toting monster. Eternal warrior just means you can be as reckless as you like.

 

(As an aside sniping Ragnar from a WG unit with lascannon is fun, when he fails to dodge it)

 

ICs in units are treated as a separate unit and act as a Multiple Combat. So to be able to strike Ragnar with a PF, the PF dude has to be in b-t-b contact with him or within 2" of someone who is.

 

So yes Ragnar can dodge PF dude.

 

But remember BBB pg 49 reads ".... and it means they have to be in b-t-b contact with the enemy to be able to attack.... When a unit is reacting to being assaulted, or making a pile-in move ICs that have joined the squad must move before other friendly models in order to get into b-t-b contact with the enemy (otherwise they will not be able to fight)

 

But it is pretty hard to do so.

[JamesI]

That Wolf Guard won't save Ragnar from a Power Fist either.

 

They do, when you don't need to allocate that wound to Ragnar.

You dont get to choose- your opponent decides what he rolls to hit again, the unit or the IC... and then wounds are carried out. Ragnar is a unit of one, so he never gets to "pass the buck".

 

Excuse me but i do, it says that WGs can be used as bodyguards for SW characters.

I don't see a single rule that allows Wolf Guard to be bought as retinues.

[Hfran Morkai]

I don't see a single rule that allows Wolf Guard to be bought as retinues.

 

Me neither, I believe it is a reference in the fluff about them being used as a Lord's retinue. They don't do that anymore...one squad type now.

[Grey Mage]

That Wolf Guard won't save Ragnar from a Power Fist either.

 

They do, when you don't need to allocate that wound to Ragnar.

You dont get to choose- your opponent decides what he rolls to hit again, the unit or the IC... and then wounds are carried out. Ragnar is a unit of one, so he never gets to "pass the buck".

 

Excuse me but i do, it says that WGs can be used as bodyguards for SW characters.

Yeah.... I wouldnt expect that incredibly loose interpretation to fly very far with other players.

[SamaNagol]

Seeing as the term 'bodyguard' doesn't refer to anything in the Rulebook, it is a moot point.

 

This is why in 6th Ed they need to have Universal Terms and whenever they use something which is a Universal Term have it in bold, so people know exactly what is meant.

[SJumppanen]

Seeing as the term 'bodyguard' doesn't refer to anything in the Rulebook, it is a moot point.

 

BRB p.48. Retinues: In parenthesis "witch is called "retinue", "bodyguard" or similar".

 

But i do agree that GW needs to work bit more in these things.

[JamesI]

I still fail to see a rule that wolf guard can be a bodyguard. Any IC that can take a retinue it says so in the IC's rules.

[nurglespuss]

True, the only units/models that are a retinue, are called a retinue, anything else, is not. (and thats [cough, splutter] RAW at its bland and annoying best).

[Freman Bloodglaive]

As far as I know, only Guard officers can claim the advantage of being part of a retinue.

 

Means we have to kill 4 or 5 toughness three troops before killing that Colonel... It's doable.

[SamaNagol]

And Grey Knight Heroes.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

...not so doable.

[Grey Mage]

And Dark Eldar Archons can take a retinue aswell.

 

And Tyrant Gaurd.

[stinkenheim]

IG dont have retinues. they can take two bodyguards and as long as they have 1 alive they can palm two wounds onto them, but the command squad itself isn't a retinue... also they have to pay 30pts for each of those bodyguard which is what makes me dubious about a 10pt wolfs ability to do something similar..

 

hive tyrants, although it says tyrant guard are a retinue don't actually need it as they are not IC, broodlords however are an do get a retinue of stealers... of course i can't remember if monstrous creatures can be singled out in combat if joined ito a unit so it may hve an advantage...

 

retiniues are a throwback to a few years ago, almost all of the new codexes have done away with them so there is little chance that they intended wolf guard to function in that way. i mean what with the saga of he bear, 2 wolves (possibly) and a retinue of storm shield wielding wolf guard there is little that could actually kill our wolf lords

[Decoy]

You know... as much as I hate to say it... after a thorough re-reading of all relevant books, I think I'm going to have to say that Wolves, in close combat, aren't ablative wounds. Against shooting? Yup. But close combat, notsomuch, methinks...

[stinkenheim]

any particular reason decoy, or is it just a gut feeling?

[SamaNagol]

In very simplistic terms; Because there's nothing to say they can. Which means you can't.

[Decoy]

Just every close combat rule and wargear rule scream against it. I'm tired and drunk, so no real response from me other than this. It's not a feeling I get by omission (shut it, Sama) but instead, just looking at what -is- there.

[rahl02]

Just every close combat rule and wargear rule scream against it. I'm tired and drunk, so no real response from me other than this. It's not a feeling I get by omission (shut it, Sama) but instead, just looking at what -is- there.

 

The wolves function just like Tau drones, they form a small unit and doesn't take away the IC rule. IF the IC and the wolves joined another unit, attacks would be directed at the IC and wolves as one unit and the other attacks would be directed at the other unit. The wolves function to add to wound allocation for IC.

[SamaNagol]

In a game, the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence.

 

Until someone shows me direct quotes that Fenrisian Wolves have any effect on wound allocation on close combat, you can't do it.

[rahl02]

Here's a quote DIRECTLY from the Tau FAQ which has an EXACT SAME circumstance that we're having here.

 

"When selecting your army, if you buy a Tau

character without a Bodyguard, he (and his

drones) may join/leave units as a normal

independent character. In combat, the character

(and his drones) count as a separate unit.

If, when selecting your army, you buy a Bodyguard

for a Tau character, the Bodyguard and the

character (and his drones) must be fielded as a

unit, as described for Retinues on page 48 of the

Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. In this case, the

character (and his drones) cannot leave the

Bodyguard unit. The character (and his drones)

are members of the unit in all respects. Only if the

entire Bodyguard is destroyed, the character

returns to being an independent character, as

described above."

 

Also I NEVER said that if an IC with Wolves fails a save you take a wolf. I said that you can allocate wounds to the wolves as part of wound allocation. It's the same with the drones. It doesn't change the fact that their still IC. Same goes for the Lone wolf, it's not a unit but wargear options. He's not an IC so his point is moot.

 

 

Quoting myself for SamaNagol. The Tau drones do the EXACT same thing as fenrisian wolves, they're purchases as wargear. They don't stop the Commander from joining other units. If you disagree there's a tournament faq that's not entirely official but i believe is used for most major tournements on dakka dakka. I'll quote directly from that.

 

+SW.62D.01 – Q: If an Independent Character is accompanied by Fenrisian Wolves, do he and his Wolves form a „retinue‟?

A: Yes. This means, among other things, they fight together as a single unit in close combat, take morale checks if they lose at least 25% casualties in a single phase, and give up Victory Points as normal for a unit. The one exception is that the unit is worth only one total Kill Point if destroyed [clarification].

Ref: BT.27E.01, TAU.31D.01

+SW.62D.02 – Q: If an Independent Character is accompanied by „Fenrisian Wolves‟, can he still join other friendly units?

A: Yes, in which case both he and his wolves join the unit (although his Wolves still must remain within 2” of their master at all times) [clarification].

+SW.62D.03 – Q: When an Independent Character with „Fenrisian Wolves‟ joins a unit, how does this combined unit fight in close combat?

A: When resolving close combat attacks, the character and his Wolves count as one unit and the friendly unit they are joined to counts as another [clarification].

Ref: BT.27E.02

 

It's the exact same ruling from the GW faq. Which I might add is done with Jon ‘yakface’ Regul and his FAQ ruling council who are:

 

FAQ ruling council is comprised of: Jon “yakface” Regul, Bill “Centurian 99” Kim, Hank “Muwhe” Edley, Greg “Inquisitor_Malice” Sparks, Matthias Weeks, Christopher Mehrstedt, Joe Adams, Dave Creswell, Colin Vasconcelles and Jeff Chua.

Many thanks go out to the numerous internet forums, their posters, clubs/groups and GW staff that contributed invaluable questions, feedback and/or advice to help create this FAQ.

 

This as offical as it gets. Until GW actually gets theirs up. If Jon "yakface" Regul does it for this tourny faq and for gw it's good enough for me.

[SamaNagol]

That's fine, because it is there in writing. However there is nothing in the rulebook or codex which make those solutions true. They are an addendum to the printed rules.

 

If an FAQ is released for the codex, or for tournaments i may enter then obviously their rulings are law. The point of RAW arguements are not to batter people down into submission and conquer those who disagree with you, it is simply to discern how the rules are worded as they are written. FAQs are released because the RAW do not match up with the RAI by the designers.

 

As it is written Fenrisian Wolves do not form retinues or a 'unit' because they are wargear with bases, they do not remove the character's IC status as it relates to being targeted in CC and would not stop the HQ joining another unit (Independent Characters may always join a unit)

 

But as I said, if an FAQ is released saying 'Yes the Lord may assign any wounding hits to his loyal wolves who would gladly give their life for their master' then that's fine by me. I'd probably invest in a few of them! But that wouldn't be how they worded the rule originally.

 

S'all I'm saying :)