Predators and you!

[Requiemnex]

Whats your flavor and why?

 

 

I will probably be using it as anti tank but even the autocannon can do some tank busting.

 

Curious to hear about how you gear them and suggested ways of deployment?

[minigun762]

If you haven't already, take a look at this topic.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...amp;hl=predator

Its a long debate about whether or not the Combi-Predator is equivalent to a pair of Obliterators for anti-tank.

 

For my money, I think the AC/LC Predator is a valid choice for killing AV10-12 and stunning AV13.

I think that the TLLC/LC Predator is just too expensive for what it does.

[Requiemnex]

I would agree with you Mini.. I just wanted to see how other people felt about it.. I am thinking an AC/LC is a nice alternative to a pair of obliterators for anti tank purposes. It frees up a few points to take elsewhere..

 

Yes it is not mobile and if stunned and can not shoot it becomes worthless for a turn.. I feel like it is a pretty valid tank.

 

I think I am going to use an AC/LC Pred in my match on Sunday...

 

So I am thinking about center deployment stay away from right and left table edges. Try and deploy around turrain for cover.

[Kingin]

well the way you use each pred is how good it can be. personally I love Lasscannons on my Preds so I can tank down tanks easy from afar. or I use 3, 2 Lasscannons and 1 Auto cannon. I thought of good list with 2 las preds. But personally I love las preds the DAMAGE the Killing! For Chaos Glory!

[Requiemnex]

The three lascannon shots are amazing and pretty much garentee shutting down a tank if not taking it out. The only problem is the INSANE cost of the pred at that point.

[minigun762]

I think I am going to use an AC/LC Pred in my match on Sunday...

 

So I am thinking about center deployment stay away from right and left table edges. Try and deploy around turrain for cover.

 

Let us know how it goes, I think if you target the right things (transports, walkers, MCs in that order normally) you'll be happy with the results. Remember that the Autocannon isn't a fancy weapon, but it is a solid performer.

 

Since you're not going to be moving it hopefully, I'd try to deploy 1) with a good firing lane and 2) with a potential cover save. For me its more important to have targets then be protected. You shouldn't have alot to fear from counter long range shooting since you're shooting across the board and have AV13 in the front. What will probably kill you is outflankers/deepstrikers and the like.

[Requiemnex]

Yeah I just need to remember that deploying it near table edges is a BAD idea... playing against space wolves and their scouts hurt.

[Kingin]

Well their scouts just have outflanking right? so they can't go behind you.. or can they? ya also just a little tip with vechs. If you imoblised it or destoryed its gun, if you make the tank useless of what its supposed to do, go on next target. At times I just try and take down 1 tank while i forget about others haha.

[Requiemnex]

Wolf scouts have a rule called. Operate Behind Enemy Lines allowing them to outflank from your deployment edge. Can be messy.

 

I usually just try and give my units enough time to get up close and at that point tanks become pretty worthless. I have in the past deepstriked a termicide squad just outside of an enemy sternguard squad.. He fired at the termicide squad with his demolisher cannon and completely murdered his entire sturnguard squad.. Made me giggle.

 

I am amazed at how good a predator could be.. No plasma cannon. But its nice.

[Corpse.]

Autocannon = 1.32 hits

2 Heavy Bolters = 4 hits

TLLC = .88 hits

2 Lascannons = 1.32 hits

Havoc Launcher = Rough estimate 1.1 hits*

 

*HL

A "hit" where you place 3" blast, averaging 1-3 hits on averaging 2 hits, divide by 3, calculate reroll hit chance against miss=1.1 .

Chances of rolling 5 on two dice (need 6 inches to miss a 1" base with a 3" blast marker centered over it) 8/32 chance of rolling 5 and under. 1/4th chance, added to 45% to miss = 11.25% converted to the 55% now making it 66.25%, which is almost 2/3rds chance to hit just like rolling 3+ on one dice when hitting the model the blast is over, higher chance to hit 40mm bases, and minor scatters hitting other models if the blast is placed nicely.

 

 

I prefer the dakkapredator with havoc launcher as my predator. I have oblits for other things, and vindicators for the rest. The predator to me stands out as a dakkapredator.

[Requiemnex]

I would agree with you that it plays the same role really as an obliterator but it is SLIGHTLY cheaper than two.. Not here to argue what is better for point costs but I need the extra 20 points for wargear.

 

I am thinking I will run Two predators and one squad of 2 obliterators.. The Predators will be combi preds..

 

I could take down all the armor turn one with that much firepower... Then leave all his troops to suffer the long walk accross the board.

[Cale]

I use predators with just TL Lascannons and no sponsons. It's a lot like playing an obliterator for its lascannon. It's better than an obliterator in that it's much more resilient, more mobile, and more accurate; and the fact that its lascannon is on a turret means it can see over my Rhinos, allowing it to get shots more easily. It's worse than an obliterator in that it's 30 points more expensive, doesn't deep strike, doesn't have a variety of weapon options, and doesn't come in squadrons.

 

Still, I find that it does what I need it to do in my army: provide long ranged, anti-tank shots. My CSMs can pretty much handle everything else, I just find that I need lascannon shots (and, no, autocannon shots would be substantially worse for anti-tank work) and I like for those shots to come from tanks without costing a bundle or sacrificing mobility. These tanks do it for me better than pretty much anything else could.

 

I would kinda like to try Defilers, too, but I hate the models. I love obliterators, of course, and use them on occasion, and I have a Vindicator I play frequently, as well, but I would never play a different Predator variant. There's no other variant that does what the Predator is there to do as effectively for the cost. The only other predator that seems particularly good is the AC/HB/HL predator, but that's pretty exclusively anti-infantry, and I don't need more anti-infantry. CSMs are better anti-infantry for the price than a tank like that, and I need my heavy support slots for other things.

[The WarpGhost]

As a Steel Brethren player, the mechanised nature of the Predator pretty much garuantees it a priority place which the Obliterators cant really compete for (although they're a fit in all other respects for the army as I envisage it). I use the AC/LC combo because I need the long-ranged tank/gribbly-busting it provides. I dont need the anti-personnel as I generally have that area adequately covered. The TLLC/LC Predator alternatively is too expensive for what it provides; with points being as tight as they are, swapping 2 high S (but moderately low AP) shots that is nonetheless essentially free for a single High S/high AP isnt an economical use of precious points.

 

For deployment, I have no particular overriding paradigm beyond making use of that excellent 48" range (another argument against heavy bolter sponsons).

[Requiemnex]

Now I have another question.. Spearhead... So You are looking at table quarters at this point.. Do you find it hard to position your predator in these situations?

[Corpse.]

I normally place the predator near the front, because my playstyle is advance advance advance. I can't afford a long range unit pelting away at my forces. I like using it as cover for the initial turn if I don't get first turn sometimes if its quartered zones. This also prevents outflankers from doing their job with removing my tanks if they're all in the middle and doing damage asap.

 

The only thing that gets put near the rear would be a defiler, or a cover hopping obliterator unit.

[Requiemnex]

I usually put my defilers up around my rhino to start and usually move my rhino to provide cover for my obliterators.. People who have played against me know I have amazing luck with plasma cannon rolls.....

 

That is a decent idea though.. Put them in the middle front of the deployment Zone forcing the outflanker to take an extra turn to actually do anything to it.

[RedDeath]

I run a pair of Autocannon/2x Lascannon Predators at 1500pts, fits in with the mech theme I feel. For 260pts I can throw 4 Lascannon and 4 Autocannon shots out per turn, which is enough to pop transports and lightly armoured stuff, and is especially nice on MC.

 

For deployment, ideally it's right down two firelanes, preferably where I can see transports or MC are going to need to be. They generally sit back and shoot for the first couple turns, then if there are no targets, drive up to contest objectives, which no one ever expects.

[Kingin]

ya Thats what I tried with my Preds but, my dice roll sucked and it didn't kill anything! also my daemon prince failed to damage a Land Raider which was gay bad dice rolling. What would you do if you had bad dice rolling in a game? give up? or just lose? I lost

[the jeske]

well actually a DP not hurting a moving LR aint bad luck , it is what should happen.

[RedDeath]

ya Thats what I tried with my Preds but, my dice roll sucked and it didn't kill anything! also my daemon prince failed to damage a Land Raider which was gay bad dice rolling. What would you do if you had bad dice rolling in a game? give up? or just lose? I lost

 

Lose. Sometimes the best laid plans are going to go to hell because of dice. Good movement can mean as little rolling as possible, and good target selection will give you the odds, but sometimes it'll all go to hell anyway. My Preds are pretty reliable, but sometimes I'll spend a game rolling ones and twos for most of their shots. Ah well.

[Cale]

well actually a DP not hurting a moving LR aint bad luck , it is what should happen.

 

Well, actually Jeske, I think you're pretty much wrong about that. Did you do the math?

 

A Lash Prince (the worse sort against tanks) has a 68.9% probability of doing something to a Land Raider which has moved 6" or less.

 

Make that a Khorne Prince and it goes up to 75.4%.

 

Make it a Warp Time Prince, and it goes up to 84.6%.

 

 

 

Now, if you presume the Land Raider moving more than 6", a Lash Prince has a 30.2% probability, a Khorne Prince has a 35.1% probability and a Warp Time Prince has a 49.4% probability.

 

 

So, it's possible that the post to which you were responding was, indeed, referring to a situation in which you would be right, but without a greater degree of specificity, your claim is baseless. Also note that the average of those probabilities is 57.3%, so if we presume an even distribution of those events and base our answer on randomly choosing one, you're definitely wrong.

[Kingin]

Ya the dice rolling was not with me the best I got out of 4 attacks were a 8 with 2 dice, ya thats average but hey need above average more haha.

[the jeske]

A Lash Prince (the worse sort against tanks) has a 68.9% probability of doing something to a Land Raider which has moved 6" or less.

how offten do you see LR moving 6" per turn ? if it has cargo[and you want to stop it] it moved 12". if it is empty then the DP is needed to counter the unit that disembarked[and probablly is killing/killed something] and not an empty transport.

An opposing player has a whole turn to see where a DP will go it is not really that hard to move more then 6" even when your contesting an objective[and sm ones will still shot too]

 

Also note that the average of those probabilities is 57.3%, so if we presume an even distribution of those events and base our answer on randomly choosing one, you're definitely wrong.

50% chance to do something is to small to be acutally useful , to realiablly blow up LR with DPs one would have to use 2DPs to be sure to stop one LR and LR rush builds run 2. its like saying a single melta gun shot is good anti tank because it has 50%[am not a math guy am doing all this out of game xp] chance to do something to a tank.

 

 

by the way the 49% on warp time prince is without the 50% of psychic power being stoped by hood , rune staff etc or am I wrong there ?

[Cale]

A Lash Prince (the worse sort against tanks) has a 68.9% probability of doing something to a Land Raider which has moved 6" or less.

how offten do you see LR moving 6" per turn ? if it has cargo[and you want to stop it] it moved 12". if it is empty then the DP is needed to counter the unit that disembarked[and probablly is killing/killed something] and not an empty transport.

An opposing player has a whole turn to see where a DP will go it is not really that hard to move more then 6" even when your contesting an objective[and sm ones will still shot too]

 

Considerably more often than they move faster. A raider will, at most, spend two turns moving more than 6", and that's if you're playing it as aggressively as possible. Sure, after the first or second time it has move further, it's empty, but an empty raider is still a significant threat, especially to a mechanized army, which every chaos army should be. So, again, you're basically wrong, here. Daemon Princes will frequently be charging raiders that they'll be hitting on fours--more frequently, in fact, than the reverse. Frankly, if, within your group, the reverse is true, your group is probably not as awesome and competitive as you make it out to be. =P

 

 

50% chance to do something is to small to be acutally useful , to realiablly blow up LR with DPs one would have to use 2DPs to be sure to stop one LR and LR rush builds run 2. its like saying a single melta gun shot is good anti tank because it has 50%[am not a math guy am doing all this out of game xp] chance to do something to a tank.

 

It's not great, no, but it is more likely than not--which directly contradicts your claim that it is less likely than not.

 

Further, a 50% chance is not too small a probability to actually be useful. The probability of a lascannon doing anything to a Raider is far, far lower, but you take lascannon shots at raiders anyway, when there's' nothing more important--or both sufficiently important and sufficiently likely to succeed.

 

by the way the 49% on warp time prince is without the 50% of psychic power being stoped by hood , rune staff etc or am I wrong there ?

 

There, you are correct. I did not count the probability that the psychic power fails or is stopped. Even so, a DP without any psychic powers still has a very worthwhile chance of doing something to a raider which hasn't moved more than six--a scenario which, despite your claim to the contrary, is not rare at all.

 

In the end, your statement was still wrong. It is more reasonable to expect a daemon prince to do something to a land raider than to expect it to fail to do anything.

[the jeske]

it's empty, but an empty raider is still a significant threat,

ok how is en empty rhino LR of a treate to a chaos list then a unit transported by it , specially as chaos is a short range army . how is 2 lascanons shots and some hvy bolters more a problem then a unit hth termis or in mirror matchs a unit of zerkers/pms/csm ?

or are we talking about the redemer here[and it is not like every meq army can have those], it would still be more wise to pop it with melta [to be sure] and not hope for a 50% chance from a single dp.

 

It's not great, no, but it is more likely than not--which directly contradicts your claim that it is less likely than not.

ok am not a math man. But dps have 4 attacks 5 when charging 6 if they are khorn . str 6 means they still need to roll 8 [and I think that is more then the avarge roll] , even if 8 is rolled it is still a glancing . if a 9+ is rolled it is a pen [and even then it is not 100% sure blowing up of the LR] . that is a lot of above the avarge rolls that have to be made . Again am not a math person , I speak from game expiriance and that tells me that a DP no matter what kind is not a good anti LR unit.

 

 

Even so, a DP without any psychic powers still has a very worthwhile chance of doing something to a raider which hasn't moved more than six--a scenario which, despite your claim to the contrary, is not rare at all.

aha so a DP is a good anti tank unit against not LR , but LR that are static , which considering there is not hidden set up and we rarelly see DP deep striking means [and that for the first 2 turns the LR move 12"per turn and it is when they should be hit by termicid and oblits] the LR owner has 2+ turns to see where the DP can techniclly be set up counters [not the fact there are offten 2 LR in rush builds] . the only moment when I can imagin a LR to stay static is when it is last turn and it is trying to contest an objective.

 

 

It is more reasonable to expect a daemon prince to do something to a land raider than to expect it to fail to do anything.

that is unless the LR moves and if by something we mean a chance to roll on the table and not actually being sure it will get blown up. stuning or blowing up a weapon from a LR contesting or blocking LoS or protecting troops inside aint an option that I would call as hurting the LR. just like hive tyrnants dont do anything to LR so are DPs.