Predators and you!

[Requiemnex]

This thread has turned into a nice little talk hasnt it!?

 

 

 

So.. Had my game on Sunday... Ran 2 predators.... LACK LUSTER.. Could not hit for CRAP... I was rolling 1s like it was my job. Eventually he just moved all of his troops out of my fire lanes and sat there. By that time one of the preds was immobalized and the other one moved 6 inches and took out two long fangs with the auto cannon. I would say they probably got their points back.... However.... I would also say they did not perform as well as some of the other options I could have taken.

[Cale]

ok how is en empty rhino LR of a treate to a chaos list then a unit transported by it , specially as chaos is a short range army . how is 2 lascanons shots and some hvy bolters more a problem then a unit hth termis or in mirror matchs a unit of zerkers/pms/csm ?

or are we talking about the redemer here[and it is not like every meq army can have those], it would still be more wise to pop it with melta [to be sure] and not hope for a 50% chance from a single dp.

 

A DP is more likely to kill a Raider than a single melta.

 

To answer your greater question, though, an empty Raider is a bigger threat to my units than a squad on the ground after I've killed the squad on the ground or if most of my army is still mechanized. The raider is going to move 12" and disembark a squad to have it charge--sure. Turn after that, killing that squad will likely be a priority for me. Turn after that the Raider is still there, moving less than 12" to shoot at my remaining tanks. Turn after that is a perfect turn for my DP to charge that Raider--at which point, since it wasn't moving to drop off guys, the DP does pretty well against it.

 

ok am not a math man. But dps have 4 attacks 5 when charging 6 if they are khorn . str 6 means they still need to roll 8 [and I think that is more then the avarge roll] , even if 8 is rolled it is still a glancing . if a 9+ is rolled it is a pen [and even then it is not 100% sure blowing up of the LR] . that is a lot of above the avarge rolls that have to be made . Again am not a math person , I speak from game expiriance and that tells me that a DP no matter what kind is not a good anti LR unit.

 

You may not be a math man, but I am. The numbers I presented are accurate--they do not represent the probability of destroying the land raider, but the probability of doing something to a land raider. I presented these numbers because you claimed that a DP is more likely to do nothing to a land raider than to do something. If you'd like to revise your claim, I'll provide revised numbers.

 

Further, you can base your claims off experience all you want, but I have charged a lot of land raiders with Daemon Princes, and I routinely get good results. I don't kill them every time, but the DP charge against the raider is frequently worthwhile, in my experience.

 

aha so a DP is a good anti tank unit against not LR , but LR that are static , which considering there is not hidden set up and we rarelly see DP deep striking means [and that for the first 2 turns the LR move 12"per turn and it is when they should be hit by termicid and oblits] the LR owner has 2+ turns to see where the DP can techniclly be set up counters [not the fact there are offten 2 LR in rush builds] . the only moment when I can imagin a LR to stay static is when it is last turn and it is trying to contest an objective.

 

All raiders are 'static' (if by static you mean generally moving less than 6") after they've dropped their troops off--they need to be or they waste all those points they've got sunk into guns. Anyone who keeps moving their raider more than 6" after dropping off its payload is almost certainly making a mistake.

 

So yes. My claim was that it's good against a slow-moving Raider and that, further, slow moving raiders are common and frequently close to DPs thanks to the fact that most raiders delliver a payload and then spend the rest of the game shooting.

 

 

 

 

that is unless the LR moves and if by something we mean a chance to roll on the table and not actually being sure it will get blown up. stuning or blowing up a weapon from a LR contesting or blocking LoS or protecting troops inside aint an option that I would call as hurting the LR. just like hive tyrnants dont do anything to LR so are DPs.

 

No, not unless the Raider moves--unless the Raider moves more than 6" which means more than it can move if it doesn't want to waste its guns, or, generally, more than it will move unless it's dropping a payload or you're an idiot.

 

So, in conclusion, you're still just wrong. DPs are great against slow-moving raiders--not just raiders that are standing still. The math backs it up. My experience contradicts yours. Common sense shows that Raiders will frequently be slow-moving. I generally respect your opinion, Jeske, but, here, you've got nothing.

[minigun762]

So.. Had my game on Sunday... Ran 2 predators.... LACK LUSTER.. Could not hit for CRAP... I was rolling 1s like it was my job. Eventually he just moved all of his troops out of my fire lanes and sat there. By that time one of the preds was immobalized and the other one moved 6 inches and took out two long fangs with the auto cannon. I would say they probably got their points back.... However.... I would also say they did not perform as well as some of the other options I could have taken.

 

Well dice rolling aside, think back if you had gotten hits where you missed. Would those hits have done anything different for the game?

 

We talk about a unit and can theoryhammer it all day long on the forums but if you try it and your rolling is anything but normal, it might give you a biased opinion of its abilities. I find the best idea is to mentally normalize its shooting and then guess how it would have performed.

[Requiemnex]

I think they are a really strong unit really especially for the points. Its just a matter of the follow through. I honestly think they work around the same as obliterators. The difference is templates generally dont "miss" really. The direct fire from the predator can miss and not work... The fact that I spent 3 turns shooting a single rhino really hurt a lot.. If it would have taken it out it would have helped or After seeing how the way two preds worked I probably should have ignored it all together and then went for it as a last killpoint save.

 

I really like them and just need to keep using them. I find them to be a viable alternative to your normal 2x2 obliterator grouping..

 

I have a 2500 Abaddon vs 2500 Calgar game in January that I will probably run the two predators and 3 obliterators. I recently purchased a linebreaker unit as well.. Depending on what the make up of the rest of my armor is I may use a vindi instead though. Not a huge fan of vindi.. I find them to be usually able to shoot once and then flop.

 

Would you run a Vindi with Daemonic Possession almost as a rule?

[RedDeath]

Would you run a Vindi with Daemonic Possession almost as a rule?

 

Sounds like you just got unlucky dude. One game isn't really enough to get a decent view on anything I don't think, plus any unit takes a while to master, give 'em another few tries and if they don't suit you then maybe try something else.

 

As for the Vindicators, DP is essential, and most of the time so is another vindicator, as they will get shot to hell asap.

[Requiemnex]

Would you run a Vindi with Daemonic Possession almost as a rule?

 

Sounds like you just got unlucky dude. One game isn't really enough to get a decent view on anything I don't think, plus any unit takes a while to master, give 'em another few tries and if they don't suit you then maybe try something else.

 

As for the Vindicators, DP is essential, and most of the time so is another vindicator, as they will get shot to hell asap.

 

 

Yeah I figured as much.. Good Deal.

[Night Lord Dred]

This thread has turned into a nice little talk hasnt it!?

 

 

 

So.. Had my game on Sunday... Ran 2 predators.... LACK LUSTER.. Could not hit for CRAP... I was rolling 1s like it was my job. Eventually he just moved all of his troops out of my fire lanes and sat there. By that time one of the preds was immobalized and the other one moved 6 inches and took out two long fangs with the auto cannon. I would say they probably got their points back.... However.... I would also say they did not perform as well as some of the other options I could have taken.

 

Wait wait, so an alternative like an obliterator....who has LESS shots to hit with (their biggest problem) would have somehow done better? One of the preds was immoblized...ok, and what alternative wouldnt have died to that shot that did that?

[Requiemnex]

Well yes an obliterator has less shots but could have fired at troops with plasma cannons where as the lack of ability to move and shoot all weapons sort of hurts it..

 

I by far do not think the predator is a bad option.. I just need to change my frame of mind around how it works.. The bad rolls are really what hurt me. Not to mention the guy I played against pretty much made every cover save. I am not here to debate as again I have only used these tanks once and am going to continue to use them for awhile to see if I can get the feeling down.. The table we played on had a lot of larger terrain pieces that allowed him to hide his forces behind. One situation will not determine their effectiveness. I simply stated that an obliterator squad would be better because sure one would have died but they would have other options.