Spazmonkey Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 So I have been looking at the idea of running 6 man squads in Razorbacks. x5 Grey hunters + wolf standard + x1 special weapon x1 Wolf guard + combi weapon + power fist/weapon x1 Razor back with Heavy bolter or whatever points allow for. The reason i am looking at doing this is to increase the number of scoring units i can field. I know this will increase the available kill points to my opponent as well. The plan is to use my ven dread/crusader/termies/long fangs to do the bulk of the dirty work and to focus my grey hunters and razorbacks on getting to and holding objectives... Do 6 man razorback squads work? is it a viable option? Has anyone tried this? someone must have..... I am very keen to hear opinions onthis and other wolves experiences either using or fighting against this kind of set up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Yes, but for each partial squad I reccommend one full size squad for the sake of durability. Razorback squads are best, I find, for taking the nearer objectives and holding them while providing fire support, theyre also damn handy in Cityfight, where they are less vulnerable to enemy fire. For each Razorback I also reccomend having a Dreadnaught, Vindicator, Landraider, or Predator to serve as a bit of a distraction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2216895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 Yes, but for each partial squad I reccommend one full size squad for the sake of durability. Razorback squads are best, I find, for taking the nearer objectives and holding them while providing fire support, theyre also damn handy in Cityfight, where they are less vulnerable to enemy fire. For each Razorback I also reccomend having a Dreadnaught, Vindicator, Landraider, or Predator to serve as a bit of a distraction. I was considering 3 units of 6 in razor backs and 1 unit of 10 in a crusader. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2216898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
commander alexander Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 If you are facing an enemy with any amount of armor or anti-armor, I would feel they would be at risk without other distractions, but if you took options like the TL-Lascannon or HK Missile, they themselves could be a threat to enemy armor <_< . I have tried small squads in a razorback before(not with wolves mind you) but I mad the mistake of taking a minimum of two 5 man squads to buy other units, it was with objectives, needless to say my opponent wiped them away in the first two turns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2216900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverwolf Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I would try and find the points to turn at least one of the Razorback squads into a 10man Rhino squad. Also, what is the focus of the Crusader squad? I always run one in 1750pt or above, but packed with Bloodclaws and run it straight at their lines, lot of points, but pretty dam durable, and packs a nasty punch. I need more info on what your trying to do to give any better advice. What is the goal of your Razorbacks? What is the goal of the Crusader? (In general terms). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2216904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Dan Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 So I have been looking at the idea of running 6 man squads in Razorbacks. The reason i am looking at doing this is to increase the number of scoring units i can field. I know this will increase the available kill points to my opponent as well. The plan is to use my ven dread/crusader/termies/long fangs to do the bulk of the dirty work and to focus my grey hunters and razorbacks on getting to and holding objectives... Do 6 man razorback squads work? is it a viable option? Has anyone tried this? someone must have..... I am very keen to hear opinions onthis and other wolves experiences either using or fighting against this kind of set up. Succesful lists are all about balance. Why increase the # of units if it will aid you in one scenario and hurt you in the other. That is zero sum game-planning. Unless of course a majority of your games are not kil-point games. I don't know if you will ever see 6 objectives in a game. And by tieing 6 units into getting to and holding objectives you are limiting yourself by having many points and units to one role. And holding objectives is not a priority until the last few turns. Plus by having smaller units you are decreasing the chances of sitting on them and surviving succesfully. 10 men can take more fire than a 6 man unit. I am not trying to criticize the idea, just trying to find potential flaws. I would have to see an army list to really get into it. Just try and find the balance. Also, in tournements you will get killed on comp points for redudancy, if that is an issue for you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2216965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 I would try and find the points to turn at least one of the Razorback squads into a 10man Rhino squad. Also, what is the focus of the Crusader squad? I always run one in 1750pt or above, but packed with Bloodclaws and run it straight at their lines, lot of points, but pretty dam durable, and packs a nasty punch. I need more info on what your trying to do to give any better advice. What is the goal of your Razorbacks? What is the goal of the Crusader? (In general terms). I havnt really put a list together as such. I just like the idea of 6 man units in razorbacks, just want to know if it works? Im really just interested in looking to see how this will play out, and if anyone has tried the 6man and razorback stlye army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2216980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CainTheHunter Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 You should talk to Mikal - he's been very excited about Razorbacks recently, and is dismissing Rhinos at all. Try to find his list on the SW army lists subforum - it might give You some ideas. Here it is http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=186063 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2216987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 There is a similar discussion going on in Tactica... you might check their. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2216988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 Thanks Grey Mage.... Ever the voice of wisdom .......=0) \ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2216999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thylacine Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 A mate of mine did a Razorback list a year or two back with marines, it looked good on paper but it bit the dust at the tournament. With all the new Razorback turrets and a SW list I think it would do better. Packs of six will not work in HtH unless you really thin out the enemy, just not enough fury in a small pack, remember no two Power Fists or two Power Weapons in this codex and the WG combi weapon is only a one shot hit, if it hits! Marines have the scoring units tied up with their tactics/squads and they have a heavy weapon. I have a list of four Razorbacks but I have not taken it out yet but I have Predators to back things up in one version and Cav and Lone Wolves in another version. Things can look so good on paper and go so wrong on the table, two bad hands of dice will loose you a game! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2217008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CainTheHunter Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 These small squads could work if properly tooled up for HtH - maybe a Wolf standard and a Mark would suffice. But still, IMO they are good for objective sitting, not grabbing objectives. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2217016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightrunner Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 My latest list has 6-man troop units exclusively. I find that the Gh are excellent value, and with a WG for the leadership and CC boost, are more than capable of defending objectives. I run three squads, but only 1 razorback. I don't upgrade it, as quite frankly, 35pts is a bit much for an upgrade to an AV11 frame in my mind. Also, inconspicuous troops choices survive longer...! One squad has a rhino (joined by a RP who fires living lightning out of the top) and the last sits in a land raider. Touch wood, but that tank is my fave, and has yet to bite the dust :P 6-man units take a lot of thought; they are fragile, but they don't lose that much in terms of damage output; its mostly bolter fire! As menttioned earlier, in conjunction with other units they work just fine. Throw them headlong at the enemy, and they don't quite work as well. NR :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2217236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastHuzzah Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I've run around with RB, Rhino pairs and have liked the results. I have yet to play a game with the new codex SW, but am seriously considering running with 2 x5 GH w/ MG, PP & a WG with Combi-Melta/Powerfist in a HB razorback. These two units would run in tandem with a 9 BC w/ MotW, PF and an IC in Rhinos. To keep fire off of the transports, running 2 Vindis and whatever else I can fit in the army that can get up close and personal quickly. -Huzzah Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2217444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I tend to run 2 units of 6 GH's with PFist & MG in a LC/TLPG Razorback w/ EA as objective sitters in a 1500 pt list with 4 dreads, 1 being PC Bjorn. The other three are PC, WTN, EA, DCCW, SB at 200 pts for a Ven Dread (helps keep him up). And lastly two Dreads with TLLC and ML. Other units are a WP with WTN and a unit of 9 BC's, Fist and Rhino w/ EA. It is competitive, but not guarenteed a win. All depends on what you use to support them. This is a 1500 pt list. How many are you planning on for your games? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2217453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I have been playing a 2K list with Njal Wolf Gd x 7: TDA x 4 (asltcan; ThH+SSh; SSh+WC; SSh+ChF) PA x 3 (C-Melt+PF x 3) These are normally with the three RBack packs. GH x 5 MG, PP, PW, WStd, RBack w/TLLC Ditto Ditto GH x 10 PG x 2, PP, PW (Home objective holder) TWC x 3: ThH+SSh; PP;PW Vindi x 3 It has been prettysuccessful (no tournaments so far). Njal stays with the fourth GH pack along with a vindi for punch. Two vindis and the three RBacks move forward toward the objectives, speed depending on the distance and the need for early anti-armor fire. I usually keep the TWC in reserve if there is a deep strike threat especially if I am going 2nd. Going first, I often use the advancing armor for shelter and move the TWC forward. The TDA WG advance using the armor for cover. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2217914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Hengist Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I ve been testing these small packs recently and I must say I'm not that impressed, if you put too many points into upgrades you unit becomes an expsensive easy kill point and if you dont they just dont do a great deal. A full unit of Grey Hunters fully kitted out is a fearsome unit to mess with, my favorite unit so far is 10 with two plasma guns + other upgrades and a Wolf Guard in TDA with a cyclone and chainfist. Its a rock hard objective sitter that can baby sit a Rune priest and protect a supporting Long Fang squad. I'm not discounting the uses of Razorbacks as I give them to my Long Fangs but Grey Hunters are better used when they can really smack stuff around from my experiece. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2218177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 You should talk to Mikal - he's been very excited about Razorbacks recently, and is dismissing Rhinos at all. Try to find his list on the SW army lists subforum - it might give You some ideas. Here it is http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=186063 Aye! I've grown detached from the humble Rhino, it just doesn't look good IMHO, but I'm not someone who goes all out to win, I'd rather have a laugh and lose whilst playing something I enjoy. I've yet to play a game with my Razorback list but it should be pretty funny. I think I changed it once again. What I will be fielding at 1500: 2 5 man packs with meltagun and power weapon with WG TH and storm bolter mounted in Razorbacks with assault cannon and storm bolter 5 man pack with meltagun and power weapon with WG TH and storm bolter mounted in Razorback with heavy bolter and storm bolter 2 lascannon Razorbacks for my Long Fangs. It should be fun to use but really lacks heavy armour, which is why my Skyclaw unit will be tying up as much anti-tank firepower as possible to enable the packs to advance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2218229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeti Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Don't really have any experience with them in larger games, but they're the bomb at 1K. Ran a list with two RB a while ago in a 1K tourny and went 4 for 4. One had a GH pack with a plasma gun, the other had 6x Wolf Guard, all with power weapons. Both worked really well, but the Wolf Guard were the all stars. Orks, Chaos, SM or Guard ... they ripped through them all. The GH pack held objectives fairly well and the RB provided some nice fire support. The rest of the list was a typhoon, dakka pred and a rhino with 9x GH (Melta, pweapon, standard) and a wolf priest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2218332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 They are 100% viable as long as you do not send them to objectives swarming with bodies. They are best at surgical strikes. Put an Assault Cannon on top and a Melta Gun and Combi-Melta/PFist WG with them and you have a very survivable unit. You can even go further and give one model MOTW to deal with larger number units. Remember, with Counter Charge Space Wolves are designed to be able to hold their own against marginally bigger enemy units in CC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2218372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 Thanks for all the input guys. We will most likley be running a range of different games. Mainly around 1500 - 1750 points. I have a pretty solid 1500 and 1750 point list, just wanted to look at other options to keep my mate who i will play the most on his toes. He is playing a 1750 point BA list with 4-5 rhinos with 5 man squads in them. (found this out last night) 2 baals and 2 characters and a couple of death company jump troop units. Im pretty much gunna use my superior numbers and long range anti armor, and let him come to me. wil be intresting to see how it plays out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2218729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 You will absolutely decimate that in KP missions, and you will probably be able to push it off objectives as well as long as you deny him the charge (assuming he uses Dante/Corbulo) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2218739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 You will absolutely decimate that in KP missions, and you will probably be able to push it off objectives as well as long as you deny him the charge (assuming he uses Dante/Corbulo) Yes that is exactly the combo he is using. he is going to use over charged engines to get to me faster... I plan on focusing my long fangs, crusader and Ven dread on trying to pop his rhinos. Ill ignore the baals for a while as if figure, If i can pop the rhinos he will have to foot slog and that will slow down his whole army. Though his bikes will still be a worry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2218946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Well, Cobulo will be in a Rhino, so take that one out first. That hamstrings the effectiveness of his charge entirely. 5 man bog standard assault squads with just Preferred Enemy to help them won't do squat against your Grey Hunters. Does he run an Honour Guard for Dante? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2218977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 Well, Cobulo will be in a Rhino, so take that one out first. That hamstrings the effectiveness of his charge entirely. 5 man bog standard assault squads with just Preferred Enemy to help them won't do squat against your Grey Hunters. Does he run an Honour Guard for Dante? Yes he is going to run an Honor guard for Dante. So planning to try to pop his transport asap as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187388-6-man-squads-in-razorbacks/#findComment-2218978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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