Thunderwolf cavalry

[xenosmk2]

I was shocked last night having my first game against space wolves by the effectivness of the cavalry and lord on a thunderwolf, they hit like terminators but move like hormagaunts.

 

Thankfully I was fielding a vindicator and predator destructor which did well in thining the ranks but by turn 2 they were in my lines destroying tanks with thunder hammers.

 

After seeing them move so quickly towards me I admit I was forced to pour mostly all my firepower into them, towards the end of the game the lord broke off and I was able to deal with him using my captain and a bike sqaud.

 

I was completly taken off guard by the power of this unit which i had never seen before so i'd like to know what tactics one should employ when facing this enemy in a 1000 pt game ?

 

Many thanks

[Giga]

How did they reach your ranks by turn 2? What deployment was it?

 

In pitched battle they got 24" to get through before they can reach you. In dawn of war its way worse.

 

Generally, all you have to do is shoot them with high str shots, or get a nice hefty unit of sternguard and rapid fire them. Orbital bombardment helps a lot. :huh:

[xenosmk2]

They used fleet to reach me, I was fortunate they rolled a 4 and not a 6 as it was pitched battle. I had deployed my vinidator forward hoping to destroy a tighty packed squad of wolves, so the thunderwolves ended up just outside charge range O.o. I believe all but the wolf lord had thunder hammers and shields, but sadly im not familiar with their rules, is this a normal wolf tactic ?

[Giga]

If they all had thunder hammers and storm shields, it means that single 5 men unit costed 550 pts. That's so ridiculously expensive for 5 dudes, that I find it incredible anyone could've actually bothered with it. I mean, for the same points you can get terminators in a land raider, which is way better overall.

 

Just spray them with lots of shooting, and let them fail some saves. They're an eggs-in-basket thingie. Every one of them that dies will go a long way towards weakening the entire unit and in effect the entire army.

[Grey Mage]

If they all had thunder hammers and storm shields, it means that single 5 men unit costed 550 pts. That's so ridiculously expensive for 5 dudes, that I find it incredible anyone could've actually bothered with it. I mean, for the same points you can get terminators in a land raider, which is way better overall.

 

Just spray them with lots of shooting, and let them fail some saves. They're an eggs-in-basket thingie. Every one of them that dies will go a long way towards weakening the entire unit and in effect the entire army.

Its also illegal, as you can only have ONE SCCW per squad.

 

And I think its absolutely hillarious that you of all people are calling it expensive. 5 Assault Terminators in a Landraider is about 480pts, throw in a TDA Commander and your looking at 650 without breaking a sweat.

 

And the TWC would have twice the wounds and equal attacks to boot.

[Frosty the Pyro]

If they all had thunder hammers and storm shields, it means that single 5 men unit costed 550 pts. That's so ridiculously expensive for 5 dudes, that I find it incredible anyone could've actually bothered with it. I mean, for the same points you can get terminators in a land raider, which is way better overall.

 

Just spray them with lots of shooting, and let them fail some saves. They're an eggs-in-basket thingie. Every one of them that dies will go a long way towards weakening the entire unit and in effect the entire army.

Its also illegal, as you can only have ONE SCCW per squad.

 

And I think its absolutely hillarious that you of all people are calling it expensive. 5 Assault Terminators in a Landraider is about 480pts, throw in a TDA Commander and your looking at 650 without breaking a sweat.

 

And the TWC would have twice the wounds and equal attacks to boot.

More attacks, TWC have an obcene amount of attacks, 4 base, normaly +1 for 2ccw. But grey mage is right, only one can upgrade its weapon.

[greatcrusade08]

I faced this unit once, all had storm shileds one had frost axe.. thy are stronger than you realise..

 

They have

T5

rending (which is great when you have as many attacks as they do)

fleet

2 wounds

3++ (storm shields)

5 attacks each on the charge.

 

Not to be sniffed at

[Gornall]

Like every other problem SMs have...

 

THROW LYSANDER AT IT! :D

 

In all seriousness, just think of them as Demon Princes with better invulnerables. Torrent them with fire and watch them fall over. Anything S10 (like Lysander) will seriously hurt them, as it's fail a save and die. Vindicators, Orbital Bombardments, and even Ironclads (if you're feeling really lucky/desperate) can get the job done. Hit them with Null Zone and it becomes even more fun. Also, I'm not sure on their leadership without a TWC Lord, so it might be possible to pin them with WWs/Sniper Rifles.

[Allerka]

Heh, Lysander is a wuss compared to TWC.

 

But yeah, if your opponent was using multiple special weapons, he was cheating. You can only have one. I run a four-man unit with all shields, fully complex, along with a twinked out WL and WGBL on TWMs as well. Combined, they all cost 870 points, but they've won me ten out of eleven games I've played with them. There is NOTHING that can stand up to them in combat.

 

That said, if you're going up AGAINST them, pretty much all you can do is pour your fire into them and hope you take out enough. Vindicators are your best shot, as you'll still be able to insta-gib them if they fails saves, otherwise just keep shooting them, but realize pouring all your fire into them means the rest of his army is advancing completely unmolested (which is half of what makes them so awesome, they're pretty much a Space Wolf equivalent of Fatecrusher).

[Grey Mage]

If they all had thunder hammers and storm shields, it means that single 5 men unit costed 550 pts. That's so ridiculously expensive for 5 dudes, that I find it incredible anyone could've actually bothered with it. I mean, for the same points you can get terminators in a land raider, which is way better overall.

 

Just spray them with lots of shooting, and let them fail some saves. They're an eggs-in-basket thingie. Every one of them that dies will go a long way towards weakening the entire unit and in effect the entire army.

Its also illegal, as you can only have ONE SCCW per squad.

 

And I think its absolutely hillarious that you of all people are calling it expensive. 5 Assault Terminators in a Landraider is about 480pts, throw in a TDA Commander and your looking at 650 without breaking a sweat.

 

And the TWC would have twice the wounds and equal attacks to boot.

More attacks, TWC have an obcene amount of attacks, 4 base, normaly +1 for 2ccw. But grey mage is right, only one can upgrade its weapon.

Wich means, by the wound they have an equal number of attacks, right?

 

And they only have a 3+ armor save, giving them the 3++ makes them 80pts, twice the cost of a terminator, and loses them the two weapon fighting bonus, meaning that TDA will have more attacks then them by wound and by price.

 

Oh, and only one in the squad will ignore armor saves reliably, unlike TDA.

 

So yes, they are powerful, but really... just hit them with heavy bolters like youd rapid fire regular marines with normal bolters... and theyll drop.

 

Their saving grace is fleet and a 12" charge.

 

Edit: Ld 9, theyre vets.

[Giga]

And I think its absolutely hillarious that you of all people are calling it expensive. 5 Assault Terminators in a Landraider is about 480pts, throw in a TDA Commander and your looking at 650 without breaking a sweat.

465-475 pts, actually. ;)

 

TH/SS termies+LR are a different beast, too, and I think superior to thunderwolf cavalry in just about every way, seeing as they have greater mobility, greater survivability, greater charge range, and highly reliable shooting. The thunderwolves got more attacks, but that's there so that they can make up for inevitable casualties.

[Grey Mage]

And I think its absolutely hillarious that you of all people are calling it expensive. 5 Assault Terminators in a Landraider is about 480pts, throw in a TDA Commander and your looking at 650 without breaking a sweat.

465-475 pts, actually. ;)

 

TH/SS termies+LR are a different beast, too, and I think superior to thunderwolf cavalry in just about every way, seeing as they have greater mobility, greater survivability, greater charge range, and highly reliable shooting. The thunderwolves got more attacks, but that's there so that they can make up for inevitable casualties.

Where are you getting greater charge range? TWC can assault 24"

[Giga]

Eh, they need to roll well on their fleet first. Then there's the difficult terrain test too, when they have to move through terrain.

 

LR+termies inside pretty have 20" charge range, which is pretty much ascertained.

[Grey Mage]

Eh, they need to roll well on their fleet first. Then there's the difficult terrain test too, when they have to move through terrain.

 

LR+termies inside pretty have 20" charge range, which is pretty much ascertained.

When they have to move through terrain? Thats somewhat circumstantial... the LR has a 1 in 6 chance of being immobilized... but I wont hold that against it here.

 

So.... 6" move +2" fleet +12" charge= 20", meaning that you roll a d6, and on anything other than a 1 they are atleast as good as TDA, and likely better when it comes to getting off the charge from any one given spot to any other given spot in a single turn.

[Allerka]

I've run both TH/SS Termie squads in a LR, and TWC. I'd take the TWC any day. Termies don't have the wounds to withstand horde assaults, or even anything with a lot of attacks, meanwhile TWC pretty much can't be insta-gibbed in close-combat except by a Carnifex or walker, and their T5 makes them WAY harder to kill for basic troops and basic guns (which makes up for their 3+ armor, as the armor save doesn't mean jack against melta/plasma weapons or equivalent anyway). And the T5 with 2W means it's gonna take a LOT more firepower to bring them down.

 

Furthermore, few opponents truly understand what a 12" charge range means. Almost every game I've played, I've had people move to ~18-24" away from me, only to be quite shocked when they're getting charged. Plus, running a WL and WGBL on mounts too, means I can split them off if needed, and charge three separate units if I need to.

 

Five Terminators and an IC versus four TWC and two ICs, the TWC are gonna have well over double the attacks of the Terminators, striking first with most attacks, and their mobility advantage can NEVER be taken away (while a Land Raider could very well be popped on Turn 1, forcing your Terminators to walk the rest of the way). Trust me, as a guy with an all-biker army, not having to rely on transports to be fast is HUGE.

[Athalus]

lord plus twc, plus 2 frostblades, is a tonne of str. Could be fun if you also grab belt of russ.

[Sanctjud]

You can only use one in combat anyway so they don't stack.

 

Only +2 str, not +4...would be rediculous.

[Grey Mage]

You can only use one in combat anyway so they don't stack.

 

Only +2 str, not +4...would be rediculous.

They dont give +2 a peice... its +1 for the FB... so even if they did stack, wich they dont, it would be +3.

 

Still, a WL on a TWM with a Frostblade is S 6, likely hitting anything on a 3+ with 6 attacks, 7 on the charge.

[Athalus]

Yeah, they need to FAQ that :tu: pretty hard, cause I want a 7 str lord =P. All that double FW, where the apostrophe/what user implies nonsense.

[Gornall]

TWC are definately nasty and frankly give a lot of armies nightmares. However, they're still vulnerable to Lash/Jaws/etc (if you don't nullify them all with Stacking Runic Weapons...) not to mention pie-plates. I'd say they're slightly better than TH/SS (point per point) as they don't rely on a LR for transport. Seriously, if you get a Nullzone off against them and hit them with Kraks, Meltas, and other AP3 or better weapons, I'd expect to see them drop pretty fast. I like to think of them as the biggest, meanest Daemon prince you've every seen. Hit them with enough Autocannons, Heavy Bolters, Plasma, Kraks, or even masses of bolter (or Sternguard shots) and you'll dent them enough where a counter charge can handle them.

 

Like Allerka said, the problem will be limiting what they can charge, as that range is nasty. Between SW and Nids, I think you might see Vindicators and Thunderfires (I think the slowing shot will go a long way to curbing TWC) coming into more use, as they help against both big gribblies and hordes.

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, they need to FAQ that :tu: pretty hard, cause I want a 7 str lord =P. All that double FW, where the apostrophe/what user implies nonsense.

Its not nonsense- its the rules that every single codex abides by in this game. You dont stack the effects of weapons in CC.

 

After all, holding a FB in each hand doesnt increase the strength of either arms blows- each attack is only using a single frost blade. Its not a frost lightning claw...

 

So, since your not hitting any harder just because theres another weapon in your other hand I see no reason that you should get a strength bonus in the game for doing it, and thank the gods that theres a good RAW reason its not so.

[greatcrusade08]

when i played TWC my opponet had the 3+ wargear (wolftooth belt?) and saga of the bear on his frost axe weilding lord on TW..

 

very nasty indeed.

[Athalus]

So, since your not hitting any harder just because theres another weapon in your other hand I see no reason that you should get a strength bonus in the game for doing it, and thank the gods that theres a good RAW reason its not so.

 

True enough, just gotta go with the intent, not whether or not the bonuses are actually passive or not and the poor writing of the rule on FW (if they were, it would be a bit nuts, but not necessarily the best option anyways). I agree with you, but a boy can dream =).

 

As for killing TWC, its like taking down any other big bad, just nuke the ever living piss outa them until they stop moving. Someone else brought this up, however, that they are great for letting the rest of your team get in there. I use TWC right now with bikes and reg. wolves to charge up and decimate. This also gives my TWC a runepriest in range, on a bike, with cover saves, which is even more of a pain (gotta protect that 500 pt investment). However, I play 13th company, so I don't have the option to even consider termies in land raiders, so I go with TWC, while my grey hunters drop pod into the frey (to hopefully relieve that ranged nukage on my TWC).

 

Like any huge point investment its a gamble. I put SS on each TWC, with a lord on a TWM who has 2 wolves with him. This gives them a lot of wounds too, and the normal wolves n bikes charging up as well helps spread the fire around/create havoc. We will see how well this works as I test it out more. But for taking em down, treat em as a top priority threat, and the best bang for your buck pts wise if you can kill them versus any other squad you may fire at (although I wish you wouldn't =P).

[gravmania]

I started using TWC just to learn their weakness..

 

I found one weakness is their lack of Feel No Pain saves.

 

The thing that makes Nob Bikers so though to torrent is their Feel No Pain save, so you use S8 weapons to insta-kill them, well you should anyway..

 

TWC cannot be insta-killed by S8 but don't have Feel no Pain. This makes them somewhat vulnerable to "torrent of fire". Torrenting has the added bonus of making their expensive stormshield useless because you'll be shooting AP4 or worse anyway.

 

Things TWC dont like:

- Autocannon (wounds on 2+)

- Multilaser and Heavy bolters (lots of shots wounds on 3+/4+)

These weapons can be taken in bulk.

 

Kraks, lascannons, Battlecannons, even Railguns don't really bother me as they're single shot weapons and I have a couple of stormshields to take hits on.

Vindicators are dealt with by simply glancing with Longfangs to stop them shooting. So they're not the answer either.

[Allerka]

Well, they're certainly not invincible. They can take a lot of fire, but they CAN still go down. If a player is using them smart and doesn't have terribad dice, he can make them earn their points back or more every game. Like anything else, if you can get enough shots on them, force them to take enough saves, they'll start failing eventually, and you can get them down. Problem is how many turns you can do that in; take too long, and the rest of the army is in your lines already too, giving your army a bad day.

 

As an aside, I've been subjected to multi-laser/heavy bolter spam when facing Guard. Hasn't had a noticeable effect on me.