Saga of the Hunter

[rodgambit]

Are you able to attach a wolf guard leader with this saga to a scout pack or would you have to make a seperate reserve roll for each and then a seperate outflank rule for each? Also, if you can't attach them I'd imagine his outflank would be the standard kind and he would not benefit from OBEL.

[Thunderpup]

I believe since the Wolfguard becomes part of the pack, he gets the Wolf Scouts OBEL and doesn't need to take the saga or roll seperately for reserves and deployement side.

[Gentlemanloser]

This saga is useless.

 

It's even worse than Saga of the Iron Wolf...

[Hfran Morkai]

This saga is useless.

 

It's even worse than Saga of the Iron Wolf...

 

Because adding +1 to the Iron Priest's roll is such a waste of time, not to mention potential extra distance for something like a Redeemer. /sarcasm

 

I'm interested to see how this works out, I reckon you could have a lot of fun with it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Because adding +1 to the Iron Priest's roll is such a waste of time, not to mention potential extra distance for something like a Redeemer. /sarcasm

 

/shrug

 

If you wanna pay 50+ (can't remember how much the saga costs) just to get d3 extra move for a single reedemer, go for it.

 

That's why I said Iron Wolf doesn't suck as much as Hunter. It still has a tiny use...

[Hfran Morkai]

Also with regards to the original question I personally believe you could because a single guy by himself would be kind of stupid. I feel he would also benefit from BEL due to it simply saying if making use of outflank. I think you'll need to discuss with an opponent.

[Gentlemanloser]

You could attach him, but he (and therefore the Scouts) wouldn't be able to BEL.

 

One of the reasons it's a useless Saga.

 

It could have potentially had a use if you could have stuck it on a WGBL on a TWM (with two Wolves). As a nice lone fast and hard hitting Hunter.

 

But you can't.

[rodgambit]

I did some more reading and people were saying that saga of the hunter doesn't work with a TWM, which is too bad, but ya I need to find a rules clarification on attaching him before he enters the table.

[Thunderpup]

Because adding +1 to the Iron Priest's roll is such a waste of time, not to mention potential extra distance for something like a Redeemer. /sarcasm

 

/shrug

 

If you wanna pay 50+ (can't remember how much the saga costs) just to get d3 extra move for a single reedemer, go for it.

 

That's why I said Iron Wolf doesn't suck as much as Hunter. It still has a tiny use...

 

15 points for the sage.

 

And an iron priest + 3 thralls and Saga of the Iron Wolf = a Land Raider that you can auto repair every turn. (+4 to a repair roll of 5+)

 

Sorry for off topic.

 

Pup

 

I did some more reading and people were saying that saga of the hunter doesn't work with a TWM, which is too bad, but ya I need to find a rules clarification on attaching him before he enters the table.

 

 

Pack leaders Pg. 86 C:SW

 

They join the unit before the battle.

 

EDIT:

 

Bah! You're refferring to WGBL not Wolfguard pack leader, aren't you?

 

I know you can attach the WGBL to the scouts when you put them into reserves. I do NOT know if they confer OBEL to the WGBL becauce he's an independent Character.

[Hfran Morkai]

Technically they do not confer BEL but he gains outflank and BEL is the Space Wolf version of outflanking. I feel it's entirely reasonable.

[Valerian]

Technically they do not confer BEL but he gains outflank and BEL is the Space Wolf version of outflanking. I feel it's entirely reasonable.

 

No, BEL is the Wolf Scouts' version of Outflank, not the Space Wolves' version.

 

1. Saga of the Hunter can only be used by the Infantry unit type, so no putting anyone on a Thunderwolf Mount (which makes them unit type Cavalry.

 

2. Saga of the Hunter gives the IC the ability to Outflank, but the ability is not conferred to a unit that he joins (so no trying to Outflank with a Grey Hunter pack, for instance.

 

3. Wolf Scouts do have Outflank, and the improved BEL ability. This ability is conferred to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader, who is assigned as a part of the Wolf Scout unit prior to the game. This ability is not, however, conferred to an IC who joins the unit during the game.

 

4. An IC with SoH could join a Wolf Scout pack during deployment, but the whole unit would have to arrive vias

the standard Outflank, as the IC is not able to BEL.

 

Thus, this Saga really is next to useless unless you want to send an Infantry IC on a solo Outflank mission, which isn't a smart thing to do, or, you don't mind sacrificing BEL just to get the IC some Wolf Scout attendents.

 

As to Saga of the Iron Wolf, that too is next to useless. Just because your Redeemer can now move greater than 12" doesn't mean it gets to shoot, so the extra movement is a negligible advantage and forces you to take arguably the worst unit in the Elites section just to get the Saga.

 

Regards,

 

V

[rodgambit]

Thanks for the replies and yes I was refering to a battle leader.

[Niiai]

In second though, how many of the other armies can use a stealthed hero that outflanks?

 

I can only think of Shriek.

[Raulmichile]

As to Saga of the Iron Wolf, that too is next to useless. Just because your Redeemer can now move greater than 12" doesn't mean it gets to shoot, so the extra movement is a negligible advantage and forces you to take arguably the worst unit in the Elites section just to get the Saga.

 

Unless you want at all costs to keep a tank/dreadnought alive as long as possible for some inescrutable reason. ;)

[Hfran Morkai]

No, BEL is the Wolf Scouts' version of Outflank, not the Space Wolves' version.

 

As to Saga of the Iron Wolf, that too is next to useless. Just because your Redeemer can now move greater than 12" doesn't mean it gets to shoot, so the extra movement is a negligible advantage and forces you to take arguably the worst unit in the Elites section just to get the Saga.

 

Regards,

 

V

 

If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of its ability to outflank

 

The character has the ability to outflank

 

Emphasis mine, it is a slightly different version of outflank, which the IC gains, he can outflank and I don't think it's such a stretch to imagine that the IC can take advantage of this too.

 

If not then you could still outflank with the Scouts and the WGBl, just not take advantage of BEL, though I fail to see how it prevents the unit using BEL, because the rulebook doesn't cover having two similar rules, perhaps they assumed some common sense among our players? Considering our amusing armoury system of 3rd Edition.

 

No advantage of getting a Redeemer up close and personal? The longest range weapon is the assault cannon and the multi-melta if you mount it. The flamestorm cannons are the sponson weapons for a reason, they're deadly and you want to get close to incinerate the enemy. Plus you can always fire one weapon with PotMS so at most you lose out on three weapons firing if you stick every extra on (one of which is one use anyway)

 

I also fail to see how the Iron Priest is that bad:

 

2 Attacks basic

Powerfist attack

Repairing a vehicle on a 5+ (4+ if saga is taken)

ability to add more combat punch with thralls and cyber wolves

thralls add to roll to repair (making it a potential 2+ and one servitor can die and it'll still be 2+)

 

Sure, not as cool as scouts or WG or perhaps even a Dread but he's not as bad as people make out.

[nurglespuss]

I say osnt getting a combat monster, like a wolf guard battle leader, closer to the enemy worth the cost of saga of the hunter? I think its entirely understimated, and gives the spacewolves a tactic not available to many other armies!

[Valerian]

No, BEL is the Wolf Scouts' version of Outflank, not the Space Wolves' version.

 

As to Saga of the Iron Wolf, that too is next to useless. Just because your Redeemer can now move greater than 12" doesn't mean it gets to shoot, so the extra movement is a negligible advantage and forces you to take arguably the worst unit in the Elites section just to get the Saga.

 

Regards,

 

V

 

If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of its ability to outflank

 

The character has the ability to outflank

 

Emphasis mine, it is a slightly different version of outflank, which the IC gains, he can outflank and I don't think it's such a stretch to imagine that the IC can take advantage of this too.

 

It is not a stretch of the imagination, but it is a stretch of the rules. Saga of the Hunter does nothing but give the character the ability to outflank and the Stealth rule. Since it says nothing about him being able to operate BEL like Wolf Scouts can, then you may not just assume that he can.

 

I'd love for this to be otherwise, and would really appreciate a FAQ that made this possible, but until that happens the character with Saga of the Hunter can do no more than what is explicitly allowed in the rule for the ability, and nothing more.

 

If not then you could still outflank with the Scouts and the WGBl, just not take advantage of BEL.

 

Yes, this can be done, as I stated above in the earlier post. Having the ability to outflank due to their possessing both the Scout and Infiltrate USRs, I believe that it is completely within reason (and RAW) for a WGBL with Saga of the Hunter to join the Wolf Scouts and conduct a standard Outflank move (according to the BRB method and not BEL).

 

No advantage of getting a Redeemer up close and personal? The longest range weapon is the assault cannon and the multi-melta if you mount it. The flamestorm cannons are the sponson weapons for a reason, they're deadly and you want to get close to incinerate the enemy. Plus you can always fire one weapon with PotMS so at most you lose out on three weapons firing if you stick every extra on (one of which is one use anyway)

 

With PotMS a Land Raider can fire a single weapon when moving at Cruising Speed (6"-12"), whereas most vehicles cannot fire at all. My initial read was that when traveling greater than 12", which would be the case using the extra movement from Saga of the Iron Wolf, that no weapons could be fired, regardless of PotMS. However, upon a reread of PotMS, it looks like you'd still get a single shot, even moving from 13"-15", as allowed by SotIW, since the PotMS allows the Land Raider to fire "one more weapon than would normally be permitted."

 

So, you can get off a single shot at a slightly extended range for your hypothetical Land Raider Redeemer. However, to do that you have to invest a minimum of 65 points for a base Iron Priest with no upgrades other than Saga of the Iron Wolf. SotIW also requires that the Iron Priest actually be riding in the Land Raider to give it the extra movement; which means you can't put a unit other than the Iron Priest in there, since he is not an Independent Character and therefore cannot join another unit. At best, you could try to make a half-hearted attempt to make an assault unit out of him by buying him the four Cyberwolves and three Thrall-Servitors, but that seems rather a waste of a Land Raider that you could use for a real assault unit.

 

I also fail to see how the Iron Priest is that bad:

 

2 Attacks basic

Powerfist attack

Repairing a vehicle on a 5+ (4+ if saga is taken)

ability to add more combat punch with thralls and cyber wolves

thralls add to roll to repair (making it a potential 2+ and one servitor can die and it'll still be 2+)

 

Sure this is fine, but he costs quite a bit considering what you get (especially once you've invested in the Thralls and Cyberwolves).

 

Sure, not as cool as scouts or WG or perhaps even a Dread but he's not as bad as people make out.

 

That's my whole point. He's fine, maybe, if you have a roll for him to fill in your army and can justify his inclusion. However, most people are much more likely to find utility in a Wolf Guard pack (especially Wolf Guard Leaders for your packs), definitely a Wolf Scout pack, and almost definitely a Lone Wolf. That isn't even counting those who want to try to fit in a Dreadnought into their lists. For a lot of players the Iron Priest is the very last in priority out of what the Elite choices offer.

 

I say osnt getting a combat monster, like a wolf guard battle leader, closer to the enemy worth the cost of saga of the hunter? I think its entirely understimated, and gives the spacewolves a tactic not available to many other armies!

 

Not really. I'd much rather keep my BEL and my excellent chance (3+) to come in exactly where I want, on any table edge I chose. Sacrificing that for a regular outflank move means its either left or right side table edge, and I might not even get to chose which one. That is what is required to give that Battle Leader a unit to join. If you don't want to join a unit, then you've just put a vulnerable Independent Character onto a random side table edge with nobody to augment, or to protect him. You might as well just hand the kill points over to your opponent before you start the game.

 

V

[Stormshrug]

This saga is useless.

 

It's even worse than Saga of the Iron Wolf...

 

With respect, I have to wholeheartedly disagree with this analysis.

 

I haven't played a ton of games since the new 'dex, but in the games where I have used a WGBL with Saga of the Hunter, I've been pretty pleased with how he's fared. Personally, I'm a big fan of outflanking elements, and when I saw this option, I was pretty excited. Admittedly, the fact that you can't put it on a Wolf Lord is a bit disappointing, but picking up Runic Armor will help to bridge the survivability gap between a WL and a WGBL.

 

I'll keep my argument in favor of this Saga simple: It's good for the same reason that Wolf Scouts are good. With Meltabombs, a Plasma Pistol, and a FB, you've got an extremely versatile model who can hunt tanks and infantry with equal ease, and because of Outflank, you can (with reasonable reliability), deliver the pain to a weak point in the enemy's line, usually without giving them a chance to react. The element of surprise is not to be underrated, and even though your opponent knows that it's coming, they will still frequently let holes open that you can exploit.

 

It's anecdotal, but over the course of one particularly good game, my WGBL didn't enter until turn three and still took out half a squad of Seraphim, a full squad of Guardsmen with some special weapons, and then sprinted back towards my table edge to take out an Outflanking Demolisher (courtesy of CREEEEEEEED!) that was on its way to do very bad things to the rest of my army.

 

-Stormshrug

[the jeske]

It's good for the same reason that Wolf Scouts are good. With Meltabombs, a Plasma Pistol, and a FB, you've got an extremely versatile model who can hunt tanks and infantry with equal ease, and because of Outflank, you can (with reasonable reliability), deliver the pain to a weak point in the enemy's line, usually without giving them a chance to react

only the scouts cant get one shoted and a wgbl very well can. + there is a world of difference between a unit of 5-6 guys that do 15+ attacks[with options for hidden fists and thunder hammers] and a guy who runs in to a unit and kill maybe 1-2 models and then eats fists and dies.

It's anecdotal, but over the course of one particularly good game, my WGBL didn't enter until turn three and still took out half a squad of Seraphim, a full squad of Guardsmen with some special weapons, and then sprinted back towards my table edge to take out an Outflanking Demolisher (courtesy of CREEEEEEEED!) that was on its way to do very bad things to the rest of my army.

wonderful so he owned a unit of guardsman and serafins[why didnt they use hit and run? or do you mean you attacks what was left from a serafin unit like 2-3 models] . and then what happened double taped by guardsman and died[that what should have happned] or eating vets meltaguns/meltas ? what would happen if you run in to a meq unit , would you kill them too [even with a SS] or would you just die to the number of attacks . what about mirror matchs against sw or against chaos [or demons] ? or when you play against an army that is too fast to catch on foot [eldar ,tau ]?

[Stormshrug]

wonderful so he owned a unit of guardsman and serafins[why didnt they use hit and run? or do you mean you attacks what was left from a serafin unit like 2-3 models] . and then what happened double taped by guardsman and died[that what should have happned] or eating vets meltaguns/meltas ? what would happen if you run in to a meq unit , would you kill them too [even with a SS] or would you just die to the number of attacks . what about mirror matchs against sw or against chaos [or demons] ? or when you play against an army that is too fast to catch on foot [eldar ,tau ]?

 

I'll take this one part at a time, I guess. I'm not really sure what your point is, though.

 

The Seraphim did Hit and Run eventually, but not until after combat had resolved and they'd lost half the squad.

 

After which point, yes, he did get shot up by the Guardsmen, but most of their fire was from Lasguns (Runic Armor is a lifesaver), and that which wasn't either missed or got eaten by his Fenrisian Wolves. He did suffer a wound, but he survived, charged, slaughtered half the squad, and then when they broke he beat their initiative score and wiped them out.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by a "meq unit." If you mean a tank, he's got Meltabombs. If you mean a "mech," as in a Titan, then I probably wouldn't send him against that. Those things aren't good for your health, you know.

 

In the mirror match, I'd do what I do with this sort of unit in any match: send it up against a target that's vulnerable to his particular brand of pain. Long Fangs standing in back are one such target. Tanks are another, particularly if they stop to shoot. Hitting in conjunction with one of my troop choices is an option. That's the point. He gives me dynamic options on the battlefield. When fighting Chaos, I've used him to great effect against Thousand Sons whose Inferno Bolts would otherwise have been a serious thorn in my side as I tried to advance my troops. Taking out dangerous vehicles is also something he's good for, particularly if they're in the back, unsupported.

 

Would I send him up against Terminators, or an HQ and Retinue, or anything else particularly resilient and nasty in Close Combat? No, not unless I really lacked a better option at that point. I admit, what with all the Invul saves and the heavy focus on CC, he's probably not as good against Chaos Demons as other armies. Nothing's perfect against everything.

 

As to fast armies: this is exactly why I field him. Against fast and mobile armies, he presents the opportunity to catch them with their pants down, at a time when they're unable to actually use all that mobility to escape. Yes, it's possible that he'll end up on an empty table edge, but in my experience, this is pretty rare, particularly considering the prevalence of objective-based games.

 

Again, I'm a bit confused about your point, unless it was an attempt to show that there are some situations where the build is subpar, in which case I will concede that it's probably not as killtastic against heavy CC infantry a Wolf Lord with Saga of the Warrior Born or Bear (and note that it's a LOT cheaper) but fervently disagree on the count of mobile armies, where not having to footslog to the enemy is a fantastic boon.

 

Perhaps I didn't quite get what you were saying, though. Feel free to correct me if I misinterpreted you.

 

-Stormshrug

[Valerian]

I'm not sure what you mean by a "meq unit." If you mean a tank, he's got Meltabombs. If you mean a "mech," as in a Titan, then I probably wouldn't send him against that. Those things aren't good for your health, you know.

 

-Stormshrug

 

Stormshrug,

 

A MEQ unit is a Marine Equivilant (i.e. T4 with a 3+ Save); while GEQ is a Guard Equivilant (T3 with a 5+ Save). These are terms that are commonly thrown around here to describe effectiveness.

 

I'm genuinely surprised that you've had such good luck with a solo Independent Character, even one that can conduct an outflank move, in your games. It is generally agreed around here that it is a bad idea to send a character out all on his lonesome (Lone Wolf is the exception because he has Feel No Pain and Eternal Warrior, and the ability to take TDA and a Storm Shield as well to increase his survivability).

 

Perhaps an IG opponent with lots of infantry cannot avoid having vulnerable units within 12" of both the left and right side of the board, so your Battle Leader has always had vulnerable units within range that he can deal with, even solo. Against a hardier foe, who doesn't hug both flanks, your guy is just asking to get isolated and shot. That's the general wisdom anyway; obviously your mileage may vary.

 

On another note, welcome to the Fang. I see that you are a new poster on here, but so far have contributed with worthwhile posts in the threads, which is appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[nurglespuss]

So why not use the term first, and then use the acronym, that way everyone is 'in' on the discussion. its getting as bad as text/net speak.

[Wildfire]

I created an Iron Pries thread here so as not to pollute this thread with a divergent discussion.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Saga of the Hunter says that the bearer has to be in power armour, runic armour is not strictly speaking power armour.

[Grey Mage]

*shrugs* My gaming group allows it to be combined with OBEL in friendly, not tournament, games, Ive used it once or twice... and its ok, but nothing amazing.