Saga of the Hunter

[Spacefrisian]

It could be usefull against armies such as Tau.

 

Besides even if he cannot join up with scouts and such having both of them arrive in the same corner could make up for this.

[Decoy]

Now, I know I've sat out of these debates when they seem to come up, but having just recently acquired the codex, I think that there may be a bit of confusion on my part. I'd like to say what I think about this, and if someone can correct me, it'd be most appreciated.

 

*Firstly: "Behind Enemy Lines". "If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of it's ability to outflank, etc etc".

 

*Secondly: "Saga of the Hunter". "The character has the ability to outflank and the Stealth rule."

 

(So far, I think we're clear.)

 

That brings us to the final conclusion that if a Wolf Scout unit makes use of it's ability to outflank, and has a WGBL with it, it is capable of Outflanking. The WGBL is therefore attached to the Scout Squad, and is treated thus.

 

Now, this is where it gets a bit hairy... This would be the OBEL Scout move.

 

*BEL: "On the roll of a 1 the Wolf Scout unit etc, etc."

 

So the statement is currently that the Wolf Scout unit can utilize the BEL move. However,

 

*ICs joining & leaving units, section "Special Rules": "Unless specified in the rule itself... the unit's special rules are not conferred (in either direction). ... ... For example, if an independent character without Infiltrate joins a character with it, the unit cannot infiltrate. (See the USR section for more details.)"

 

This is best summarized with the rules that we already know and understand, hopefully. An IC without a special rule doesn't gain the special rule, and a unit without a special rule generally doesn't gain the special rule (unless otherwise stated.) Furthermore, the second part of the quote states directly, and rather bluntly, that the "IC Special Rules" section is supplemented by more details from the USR rules. Therefore, the IC Special Rules section is not the be-all, end-all of the debate.

 

Aside from an (I think) necessary discussion of what is or isn't a special rule, I think this point is clear cut. Which leads to...

 

* USR, p74, second paragraph: "The special rules marked with an asterisk are automatically lost by an IC joining a unit that doesn't have the same special rule."

 

*USR, P74, first paragraph: "As this is just a summary, if any of the Codexes include one of these special rules and the rules is different, the Codex takes precedence."

 

 

I lumped these two together for a reason I hope is obvious; Firstly, the USR rule states only that "The special rules marked with an asterisk are automatically lost, etc etc". Therefore, the Special Rules from the IC section, citing a USR-based Special Rule (Infiltrate) are supplemented and expanded by the statement that only the rules within the USR marked with an asterisk are lost. In my mind, this leaves the door open in favor of a WGBL outflank based on the following reason:

 

Behind Enemy Lines is not a Special Rule, since it is not in the USR. If it were, it would be subject directly to USR rulings. However, since it is not, it does not suffer from the "squad loses the special rule" rule. This is only further compounded when we examine the ability to outflank further. Under the Scout entry:

 

*Scouts(USR): "This rule also confers a special outflank move to units of scouts that are kept in reserve (see page 94)".

 

Page 94: (Preparing reserves): "First he must specify... if any ICs left in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will be rolled for together"

 

"...during army deployment, whether they are going to use their special rules to Deep Strike/Outflank".

 

 

Now, unless I'm gravely mistaken, the current order of events is:

 

1: Decision to play game is made

 

2: Offerings to Dice Gods are made

 

3: All units are deployed in appropriate order, stating what is in reserve. Specifically: Wolf Scouts are in reserve. WGBL is in reserve. These two units,

INDIVIDUAL UNITS at this point, are now in Reserve (officially).

 

4: "If units in Reserve..... the player must declare to his opponent, during army deployment (Which is the crux here; I read this quite clearly as "When you're declaring reserves, declare if it is Outflanking"), whether they are going to use their special rules."

 

5: Declare if any ICs are joining any Units currently in reserve. NOW, while the Scouts and WGBL are declared as Outflanking, the Wolf Guard Battle Leader is joined to the Scouts. The action to Outflank has already been made, and cannot spontaneously be lost. Moreover, since both units can outflank, no loss should take place.

 

 

I may, indeed, be horridly wrong, but it is my firm conviction that my point is hammered home by examination of BEL.

 

BEL is not a special rule subject to Universal Special Rules. The ability to Outflank is not denied, by rule of law. The final nail, however, is in the wording of BEL.

 

*"If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of it's ability to outflank..."

 

The ability to Outflank has not been lost. This is a correct assessment, I believe.

 

*"... [insert rest of BEL ability here.]"

 

Where, oh WHERE in this rule, does it state that this is a Wolfy version of "Outflank" that overwrites Outflank itself? The "Outflank" rule applies, FULLY, with the exception of what comes on where, thanks to the point mentioned earlier; Codex takes priority. Therefore, the only thing changed in BEL is where the Outflanking unit arrives from on the board edge. Therefore, this is not a USR to be lost, it is simply a modification of the Outflank rule; Outflank is not a USR, but an ability granted. I contend, I hope correctly, that BEL is NOT a rule that can be lost or gained by a special character joining the unit, no more than Berserk Charge is gained or lost by ICs joining Blood Claws. The WGBL can outflank. The Scouts can outflank. Together, using the Wolf Scouts rule amending the Outflank rule, nothing is lost by the overlap in wording.

 

Behind Enemy Lines is not a Special Rule, but simply an ability, similar to Berserk Charge or ATSKNF. The final nail in the coffin to me is the examination, oddly, of the Fenrisian Wolves entry:

 

Fenrisian Wolves: "Counter Attack." "... They have the Counter-attack rule." ... Well :cuss. Obviously, if BEL was a special rule, it'd damn well say so. Otherwise, the Fenrisian Wolves entry would just state, under Special Rules: "Counter-attack." Some where, at some point, the developers stated, quite clearly, "Hey. We need to make sure it's known that the Fenrisian Wolves entry says they have counter attack like Marines." ... Seems a bit odd.

 

I thus submit to the Fang the following summary:

 

Wolf Scouts get the ability to outflank.

Hunter gives the ability to outflank.

Scouts/WGBL both have the ability to outflank.

Beginning of game sees both in reserve, and then both declared as Outflanking, and finally, with the IC joining the Scouts, before the game starts.

USR specifically says what rules are lost.

Outflank is not a rule that can be lost, but an ability with it's own set of rules.

BEL alters the Outflank rule, Codex taking priority.

 

 

Thus, I think there is serious contention to the line of thought that WGBL cannot join and BEL with a unit of Scouts.

 

 

 

Thank you all for reading all the way through (if you did). I hope this brings something potentially new to the debate. I urge all to compound and add to the assessment above, using it as you see fit for further judgment, or to correct it if I have misquoted or said something wrong.

 

Thank you for your time.

[nurglespuss]

Saga of the Hunter says that the bearer has to be in power armour, runic armour is not strictly speaking power armour.

 

I was thinking the same thing! bit of a sticky wicket that one...

[TiguriusX]

Saga of the Hunter says that the bearer has to be in power armour, runic armour is not strictly speaking power armour.

 

I was thinking the same thing! bit of a sticky wicket that one...

 

Runic armor is power armor.

 

p.61 of SW codex "These suits of power armour, ancient beyond reckoning, are further enhanced with runes of protection"

[nurglespuss]

It says it there in the description (thank goodness) but, in the character entries it states that you can upgrade power armour to runic armour, not runic power armour, so for the pedants out there 9and I'm not one) and the RAW lovers, its another thing to suckle on.

[Valerian]

@Decoy,

Lots of good quotes below regarding the issue. I'll go through and provide some comments.

V

*ICs joining & leaving units, section "Special Rules": "Unless specified in the rule itself... the unit's special rules are not conferred (in either direction). ... ... For example, if an independent character without Infiltrate joins a character with it, the unit cannot infiltrate. (See the USR section for more details.)"

This part is important, I think. "Unless specified in the rule itself [in this case the Behind Enemy Lines rule from Space Wolves Codex] the unit's special rules are not conferred in either direction [emphasis mine].

In the Space Wolves codex, in the details of the special rule itself, it is not specified that an Independent Character that wishes to join the Wolf Scouts is granted the ability to BEL. This really is as far as we need to go; BRB says that the special rule has to specify, this one doesn't, so we do not assume that Independent Characters that join the unit can take advantage of the rule.

This is best summarized with the rules that we already know and understand, hopefully. An IC without a special rule doesn't gain the special rule, and a unit without a special rule generally doesn't gain the special rule (unless otherwise stated.)

Correct.

Behind Enemy Lines is not a Special Rule, since it is not in the USR.

Aha. Here is where you are mistaken, and where your argument and conclusion fall apart. Behind Enemy Lines is a special rule, it just isn't Universal. The Universal Special Rules are those that appear across codices, and are potentially available to multiple armies at the same time. Thus, they have been included (starting in 4th Edition) in the main rulebook to provide for some consistency (thankfully). For all newer codices, readers are pointed toward the rulebook for details on Universal special rules.

If you look at old 3rd edition codices, those special rules were included in codex, rather than the 3rd Edition rulebook, which led to discrepancies (Grey Knights True Grit was slightly different than old Space Wolves True Grit, etc.).

Behind Enemy Lines is a special rule, but it is available for the Space Wolves only, and is not intended nor needed to be included in the USR section of the 5th Edition rulebook.

Thus we go right back to your Rulebook quote from the beginning of your post:

*ICs joining & leaving units, section "Special Rules": "Unless specified in the rule itself... the unit's special rules are not conferred (in either direction).

Thus, this restriction applies to all special rules, whether they are universal or not. It simply refers the reader to the USR section for amplifying information; this does not in any way imply that the guidance applies only to USR's and not army-specific unit special rules.

The rest of your post really isn't applicable once you come to accept the above assessment.

Therefore we must come to the following conclusions:

1. According to its unit special rule, Behind Enemy Lines, Wolf Scout Units that conduct an Outflank move do so using a modified table....

2. A Wolf Guard Leader, assigned to lead the unit prior to the battle, is a part of the unit in every way, and can therefore deploy with them via BEL.

3. A Wolf Guard Battle Leader is an Independent Character. Since the Wolf Scout's BEL rule does not specifically state that it applies to Independent Characters that join them, then it does not. If the WGBL take the Saga of the Hunter, then he gaines the ability to conduct an Outflank move; however, this does not affect his inability to use the BEL rule of the Wolf Scouts.

@GM,

I think that it is very cool of your playing group to let you join the IC like that. It is definitely worth addressing with your gaming pals, and I personally would love for my Wolf Priest, Halfdan the Black, to lead my Wolf Scouts on the Hunt. If GW does a FAQ (or better yet, an Errata) to allow it, then I will definitely take advantage of the opportunity.

Best regards,

V

"Hey Phil, Halfdan here. Would you mind terribly getting the boys at HQ motivated to finally get around to creating a FAQ? The codex has been out for over two months now, and there are a lot of issues to be addressed. And while you're at it, would you allow me to join those Wolf Scouts while operating Behind Enemy Lines? They could use some help."

"Has anybody seen Halfdan? I thought he was going to tag along on this raid." "I believe he had to go off on his own. Last I heard he was conducting a solo flanking maneuver... crazy old man."

[Decoy]

... Hm. I'll cross-check and poke around a bit more later, as I have a few essays to write, but thank you for the insightful response, Valerian... ya whelp. :lol:

[Valerian]

... Hm. I'll cross-check and poke around a bit more later, as I have a few essays to write, but thank you for the insightful response, Valerian... ya whelp. :P

Whelp?!?! Next year makes my 21st year playing 40k, and my 17th year playing Space Wolves specifically. Since you've got essays to write, I can assume that you are in school, which means that you were probably still nursing your bottle when I started fighting for the glory of Russ and the Allfather. Now run along pup, and get back to your Blood Claw pack; your Wolf Guard leader is probably wondering where you have wandered off to (plus, you've got schoolwork to get back to).

V

"Hey, where did that whelp, Decoy, run off too?"

"Err, uh, we're not sure Brother Hrothgar, but we'll find him and make sure he doesn't get lost again."

All in good fun here in The Fang

[Night Runner]

[ Now run along pup, and get back to your Blood Claw pack; your Wolf Guard leader is probably wondering where you have wandered off to (plus, you've got schoolwork to get back to).

V

:P

"Hey, where did that whelp, Decoy, run off too?"

"Err, uh, we're not sure Brother Hrothgar, but we'll find him and make sure he doesn't get lost again."

All in good fun here in The Fang

Nice work. How did you do the embossed red claw marking on the BC. It looks really good.

[Valerian]

Nice work. How did you do the embossed red claw marking on the BC. It looks really good.

 

I'm glad that you like 'em. Actually, I just used all of the Space Wolves specific metal shoulder pads that used to be available from GW. Every one of my power armoured guys has the metal Ragnar Great Company shoulder pad on their left side, and the appropriate pack shoulder pad on the right. I just checked the GW US website and the Ragnar pad and one version of the Grey Hunters pads are still available. There used to be another one for Hunters, two for Blood Claws, one for Wolf Guard, and one or two for Long Fangs, but it doesn't look like they are available anymore.

 

The new plastic Space Wolves pack sprues have a single plastic shoulder pad for each pack with this type of detail, but it doesn't give you near enough to do the whole pack with them. I guess the assumption is that the pack leader would get the good pads while everyone else would make do with the flat plastic and transfers.

 

V

[Night Runner]

Ok , I know the ones you're talking about. Completely forgot about them, to be honest, especially since I never bought them. Thanks for the info.

[WolfGeezer]

"Hey Phil, Halfdan here. Would you mind terribly getting the boys at HQ motivated to finally get around to creating a FAQ? The codex has been out for over two months now, and there are a lot of issues to be addressed.

 

It's been drafted so shouldn't be long, though I must say I'm not a fan of the few rulings I've heard. Sworn to secrecy on contents I'm afraid, but at least they are addressing some of the most hotly debated issues. I'd rather have clarity even when it goes against how I would interpret it.

[Valerian]

"Hey Phil, Halfdan here. Would you mind terribly getting the boys at HQ motivated to finally get around to creating a FAQ? The codex has been out for over two months now, and there are a lot of issues to be addressed.

 

It's been drafted so shouldn't be long, though I must say I'm not a fan of the few rulings I've heard. Sworn to secrecy on contents I'm afraid, but at least they are addressing some of the most hotly debated issues. I'd rather have clarity even when it goes against how I would interpret it.

 

Well that's good to hear, that the FAQ is on the way. No surprise that they are making some stupid calls, they always have at least a few that make you scratch your head. But it is best to have some additional clarity, like you said.

 

It's just too bad that they never go back and revisit the FAQs afterward, to continue to fix problems and their bad calls.

 

V

[Wildfire]

Saga of the Hunter says that the bearer has to be in power armour, runic armour is not strictly speaking power armour.

 

I was thinking the same thing! bit of a sticky wicket that one...

 

Runic armor is power armor.

 

p.61 of SW codex "These suits of power armour, ancient beyond reckoning, are further enhanced with runes of protection"

 

I saw that and discarded it, unfortunately. Looks like a fluff bit to me. Under the rules section of the entry, it does not state that Runic Armor uses any of the rules of Powered Armor.

[WolfGeezer]

"Hey Phil, Halfdan here. Would you mind terribly getting the boys at HQ motivated to finally get around to creating a FAQ? The codex has been out for over two months now, and there are a lot of issues to be addressed.

 

It's been drafted so shouldn't be long, though I must say I'm not a fan of the few rulings I've heard. Sworn to secrecy on contents I'm afraid, but at least they are addressing some of the most hotly debated issues. I'd rather have clarity even when it goes against how I would interpret it.

 

 

See the Geezer has the inside track. I OBEL'd :)

 

Fen Wolves as a seperate unit in CC and JAWS were the 2 I wasn't that happy with, but as it turns out the FAQ wording is slightly more amibigous than how it was told to me (it was definately the last unit targetted - actual wording could be read first or last unit) Can't believe no WG Jump pack ruling still, but otherwise a great FAQ I thought.