Plasmagun making a comeback?

[minigun762]

In the last Edition, Plasma was the hot thing (no pun intended :( ) but its been phased out in 5th Edition due to the increase in cover saves present (to negate AP2), increase in cost and the big push for Melta (for armor) and Flamers (to negate cover saves).

 

Killing off Plasma might have been premature though. Plasma is a niche weapon, but its a fairly important niche to be fair. However in light of the changes to the game mentioned above, how have you been successfully using your Plasma guns?

[Gearhead]

I have an objective holding Tactical Squad with a Plasmagun and a Plasmacannon. In straight shooting, nothing synergises quite as well with a heavy weapon in a tactical squad than the Plasmagun. It started just for theme (having a bunch of plasma in a squad) but that tactical squad is now one of my favorites to use. People are actually afraid of it, the redundancey in plasma really helped in a game when I had to face a bunch of Valks.

[InquisitorHayn]

I think you are very correct in all of your statements, especially about plasma being a niche weapon. The problem with plasma is that its niche is essentially a bridge between the power of a melta and the range of a bolter. In 5th, however, range has become plasma's biggest weakness. The one power shot at range that may or may not strike true because of cover saves finds one second guessing its viability when considering the heat it packs for the player, and up close the definitive better of the two is the melta. That being said, I find they are best used by assault-oriented close combat units in pistol form. You get all the punch for that IC you've been itching to kill without sacrificing attacks for his cronies.

 

Also, don't underestimate the plasma cannon in a dev squad or tech entourage. Especially in 5th, blast is better than ever. As far as the gun version...I think it's headed for the graveyard unless there's a major change.

[Grey Mage]

In the last Edition, Plasma was the hot thing (no pun intended :rolleyes: ) but its been phased out in 5th Edition due to the increase in cover saves present (to negate AP2), increase in cost and the big push for Melta (for armor) and Flamers (to negate cover saves).

 

Killing off Plasma might have been premature though. Plasma is a niche weapon, but its a fairly important niche to be fair. However in light of the changes to the game mentioned above, how have you been successfully using your Plasma guns?

In pairs recently ;).

 

Seriously though, the plasmagun has two big advantages over flamers and meltas- range, and adaptability.

 

As a player who prizes adaptability in my units, and who prefers to have range as part of that flex in my lists Ive found Plasmas never went out of style.

 

AP 2 is nice, and can break heavy armor, but then again so is S 7, wich can hurt light to medium tanks and walkers- at twice the range of a meltagun. I dont have to worry about what my bolters are up to in the least, because the whole is the same range... and I can get twice the Str 7 shots at 12", wich is nice.

 

In fact, in the day of increased survivability for tanks that weve entered may state its better to have more chances to roll on the chart than a greater chance of penetrating- and Ive found that it can be quite the advantage.

 

Plasma never went out of style- meltaguns just got shiny as people overreacted to the idea of tougher tanks. I remember being told that lascannons in any SM squad were bogus, and all you should bring was MORE MELTA... and quietly laughing every time I saw such ideas.

 

In fact, I still laught when I see those.

 

 

Edit:

Note- a flamer can get around 8-9 hits if you get it lined up just so, wich ends up being 4.5 wounds against a marine and 1.5 wounds after armor saves.... at best. But its entirely dependant on your opponents placement of models- you could just as easily only get three, and be praying to get through armor.

 

Meltaguns only get one shot. If your facing Monstrous Creatures, wich lets face it are huge this edition and most of last, you want more shots to do more wounds- because they wont blow up from one shot.

 

Plasmaguns on the other hand.... and pistols for that matter. My god, 4rth edition with two plasmapistols and a P.gun you could get 6 shots out of a GH squad, and make a mockery of terminator squads. These days Im at 5 shots, or 7 with a WG *and yes, Ive done that* and let me tell you what- when theyre done your TH+SS TDA will be dead or dying at one model left in a hurry. Sure, hes a bit scary, but I can handle one or two without any signficant losses.

[KhorneHunter57x]

However in light of the changes to the game mentioned above, how have you been successfully using your Plasma guns?

On Tau Battlesuits :rolleyes:

 

 

But seeing as this is a PA-only forum, I don't really use Plasma in Marine forces. The price hike in C: SM hurt a lot, and I never use them with my Templars because I would rather charge. If I fielded Devastator or Bike squads then I would use it a lot more, but currently the only place you will find Plasma in my Marine armies is on Characters and Techmarines.

[minigun762]

Seriously though, the plasmagun has two big advantages over flamers and meltas- range, and adaptability.

 

As a player who prizes adaptability in my units, and who prefers to have range as part of that flex in my lists Ive found Plasmas never went out of style.

 

Thats part of what I like about them, 2x the range of Melta and 3x of Flamers and while those weapons are awesome in their respective roles, they don't multi-task very well. The other element I like about it is that it matches Bolters perfectly, which means the whole unit can move and shoot together without leaving anyone out.

 

What I'm seeing alot of is people using units with either multiple wounds or a substantial Inv save and in both cases Flamers aren't able to stack wounds on that many units well or Melta lacks the volley of shots to get enough kills and so pumping out shots with Plasma (both at range and rapid firing) means more potential high S wounds on those kinds of targets.

[Grey Mage]

Exactly Minigun- thats why three of my Grey Hunter packs are 2x PG+PF, with only two dual meltagun+PW and 1 dual flamer+PF pack, and the flamers rarely see the light of day outside of apocalypse or cities of death.

[Kronk]

I love plasma when playing my chaos buddy.

 

Armor save that, you freaking heathen!

 

Reasonably glances a rhino? Check!

 

Can wound Demon Princes and Wraithlords? Check!

 

Denies armor saves to any troop from any codex? Check!

 

Reasonable range for a 6 point special weapon (I'm black templar, baby!)? Check!

 

Can blow up in your freaking face? Check Check!

[spartan249]

I run plasma guns in my tactical squads when I'm reasonably sure I am not going to be facing huge amounts of armor or GEQs, which is not very often at all. Plasma Guns are pretty cool in that they can obliterate a small amount of high quality troops (I'm looking at you, plague marines!), but fall short when you have to deal with horrendous amounts of weak infantry. And if a high AV vehicle comes rolling your way, you're stuck with a Power Fist hoping to glance it and stop its movement.

 

Meltaguns are amazing at making tanks think twice before doing anything to my tactical squads, and flamers can double, or even triple, your model's shooting effectiveness over the bolter. The only shame is that we can't take multiple flamers outside of veteran squads. 86 flamer hits FTW.

 

I'd pay 10 points each to give my terminators plasma guns though. That would make them a terror on the table XD.

[Brother Captain Josef]

I used to run the second of my two tac squads with p/p, p/g and p/c and generally aim it at high quality troops. It was damned effective too but I had to roll a lot of armour saves for guns overheating. In the end I decided I had to drop something, it was too frustrating for me to lose the most effective members of the squad to their own shooting but I still wanted to keep 1 ap 2 weapon. I plumbed for the plasma cannon as you only have to make one overheating roll which can hit multiple targets. It is also inexplicably cheaper @ 5pts to p/g's 10pts?! The sergenant got a bolt pistol to go with his power weapon and I went with a melta gun for when I assaulted.

 

The overheating frustrated me so much I converted my dread's ass/cann into a plas/cann (vehicle - no overheat :) ) but this might have been a mistake given the av pen of a ass/cann...

[Thantoes]

Ive always been an advocate of plasma, hell in one list I run I have 7 plasma cannons.

 

Sure plasma tends to explode and slaughter your guys but thats half the fun ;)

[Hfran Morkai]

I never was a plasma fan, mainly due to the SW boxes only containing a meltagun on the sprue! ;) Plus in 4th I wasn't keen that when rapid firing it would overheat on a roll of a one or a two, on two dice! But now it's fairly safe and a couple of my Grey Hunter packs have been gifted with plasma guns, two each to be precise but they'll only see service in larger games. I'm a melta-addict and have been since I picked up Space Wolves six years ago. I don't underestimate the plasma gun it just doesn't complement my force enough, in my lists I need things to crack open heavy armour.

 

Plasma pistols on Grey Hunters is another matter, again in larger games each of my aggressive packs has a plasma pistol to try and cause some hurt before assaulting, little room for it in my holding packs because I'd prefer a second bolter round.

 

Plasma is fun, just like most dangerous things. ;)

[jonjacob]

i run a command squad with four plasma guns, with their primary goal to shoot down high profile targets. They make mockery of light vechicals (smoked 3 kill kans not to long ago), nercons, marines, basicly any heavy troop with a decent armour save, it also very effective on MC's like carnifex's even with toughness upgrades, and with the added bonus of FNP it really buff's this squad. on any rapid fire i will loose one marnie, but the FNP is 50% chance to negate it, whats better than that?

 

i also carry plasma guns and pistols in other squads. plasma is by no means a niche weapon in my army, it more like flamers and melta based weapons. plasma never really went anywhere, never died, i guess people just need to re-evaluate how they use them.

 

But if cover save are giving problems then you using the wrong tool, flamers, TFC, WW, or dragon fire bolt is what you should be using, and if they call armours save rather than the cover save its no biggy since you saved those low AP shots for targets that might not benifit form cover.

 

got to say their anit nothing like watching a tyrant or a fex dropping from massed plasma fire. eat that nidzilla!

[minigun762]

Exactly Minigun- thats why three of my Grey Hunter packs are 2x PG+PF, with only two dual meltagun+PW and 1 dual flamer+PF pack, and the flamers rarely see the light of day outside of apocalypse or cities of death.

 

I think that Chaos and SW can get by much easier without using Flamers since we pack 2x the attacks in HtH combat, so we're less reliant on thinning those numbers before with a Flamer.

 

On a sidenote, do you normally run with 6 GH squads Grey Mage?

 

One counter I've found with denying cover saves is actually fairly simple, get up close within rapid fire range and you can often position yourself in such a way as to ignore the cover inbetween.

Sure it doesn't help if they're hiding in the cover, but for MEQ, forcing them to take a 4+ cover save is still better then a 3+ armor save since you're wounding on 2's anyway.

[Grey Mage]

Exactly Minigun- thats why three of my Grey Hunter packs are 2x PG+PF, with only two dual meltagun+PW and 1 dual flamer+PF pack, and the flamers rarely see the light of day outside of apocalypse or cities of death.

 

I think that Chaos and SW can get by much easier without using Flamers since we pack 2x the attacks in HtH combat, so we're less reliant on thinning those numbers before with a Flamer.

 

On a sidenote, do you normally run with 6 GH squads Grey Mage?

 

One counter I've found with denying cover saves is actually fairly simple, get up close within rapid fire range and you can often position yourself in such a way as to ignore the cover inbetween.

Sure it doesn't help if they're hiding in the cover, but for MEQ, forcing them to take a 4+ cover save is still better then a 3+ armor save since you're wounding on 2's anyway.

1 Pack per 500pts, rounding up. 1 HQ per 1000pts, rounding up *these days, before it was 750 of course*, no more than two support elements per Grey Hunter pack- Bloodclaws can count as support or as a stand in for a GH pack depending on how Im using them. Thats running mounted or DPing packs mind you. Its 1 per 400pts if footslogging.

 

So, I run 6 GH packs at 3000pts. At 2000pts I usually run 4 packs. But, I like having the option to at 1500pts throw down 67 PA bodies on the board, look at my opponent say "hows it goin?".

 

I agree with your point on flamers... hordes dont scare me, pie plates do. Besides I find most hordes have ways of getting in assault range without allowing you to get in flamer range first *fleet, waagh, etc*. Though it was funny... banshees trying to kill a squad of GHs with 2x Flamers holding an objective... and they couldnt break open the rhino.

 

As for cover saves from plasma... Im still wounding on a 2+, and normally decreasing your save. Cover isnt all consuming on most boards *GW standard is 1/4 of the board* and against light vehicles the cover that exists isnt usually enough to give them an obscured bonus.

[minigun762]

As for cover saves from plasma... Im still wounding on a 2+, and normally decreasing your save. Cover isnt all consuming on most boards *GW standard is 1/4 of the board* and against light vehicles the cover that exists isnt usually enough to give them an obscured bonus.

 

Exactly my thought! I think people forget that Plasma is more then AP2, its also S7. Thats enough to wound Plague Marines and some MCs on 2's and threaten AV12 and below. At worst you're wounding a Wraithlord on 5's which isn't too bad really.

[Grey Mage]

Its alot better than bolters... wich simply cannot wound a Wraithlord. ALot of Eldar players rely on the fact.

[Xeonic]

I love my plasma, though flamers and meltas find their way onto my lists a lot more than they used to, and plasma pistols have almost become extinct in favor of the odd combi plasma sarge. Still, I like to have at least one plasma gun/plasma cannon squad(often with a combi-plas sarge) in most of my lists, it kills anything dead pretty fast except heavy vehicles.

 

The way I see it, plasma has two advantages over melta, the much longer range, and more shots. A plasma cannon can fire 3 times as far as a meltagun, and a plasma gun has twice the range, and S7 is still effective vs most vehicles. If my maths don't lie they're equal at 6-12" vs AV11, and the melta is a bit better vs AV12, and of course better beyond that. Of course inside of 6" nothing beats a melta vs anything. B)

 

Of course meltaguns don't have the annoying tendency to asplode and kill the user, but that's part of the excitement.

 

Flamer = anti-horde

Plasma = anti-elite

Melta = anti-everyone

[Brother_Fatiswon]

in my local Gaming comm. i see about 70%-80% MEQ/mech: mostly chaos marines but still a fair amount of Loyalist. I play A Crimson fist Crusading battle company, Sic'em dogs of the high lords of Terra. we hunt the excomunacated(sp) and the thous that have lost thier Fate in the golden throne. SO plasma is my Ap2+ Gun of choice. but i only use them on a Pair of AoBA dreads(no over heating) and in pairs on servators backing the the Techmarine whos backing the pair of Plasma/DCCW dreads. so, in RAW terms, Thats 4 STR 7 ap2 at 36inchs. Also on that point, i'll deploy the dreads as forward in my deployment as i can, but i back step as lest 3inches per turn so i can keep my targets at the proper range.

i love my plasma cannons on dreads

[chapter master 454]

Plasmaguns are great, well any plasma weapon is really. My MotF takes 2 plasma cannon servs (I WANT FOUR MATT WARD!!!) and personally I would love to take a 4 plasma cannon dev squad.

 

plasma pistol is just like the plasma gun in that both are the upped version of their brother weapon, bolt pistol and bolter. The plasma gun forms a shot the enemy will always worry about because he knows his expensive units will get hurt by it and often the enemy will leave that lovely AV11 side armour open to some nice new plasma holes. Plasma pistols do the same in that when you are entering combat they tilt the assault phase in your favour like the plasmagun tilts any fire exchange in your favour too, it can take one 'free' wound from an enemy creature or such which often decides the battle quite easily. Plasma is a unique weapon in that it's the weapon people reach for when they need to have adaptability (like someone said. My plasma cannons are better than missle launchers because they can successfully engage AV13, and AV14 is dealt with by my more specialised units) but with some punch. Ever seen 4 shooty terminators go bye-bye because my plasma cannon servitor just level a shot at them? ofcourse you have because that what it does, plasma is the deterrent weapon with as much bite as it has bark and while rks don't fear it, they will when they suddenly see that heavy bolters are the least of their worries when 4 boyz bite it because the plasma cannon can't exactly miss 30 boyz (but then again my TFC often tells me what drugs I've been on, because often it barely sees 10 boyz in the squad when it's done firing!)

[I AM THE AWESOME]

I'm slowly phasing plasma back into my armies. For a long time, my standard Tactical Squad build has been:

 

10 men, PF, flamer, Multi melta, combi-flamer, Rhino

 

Frankly, all of this melta jump has been absurd IMO as the only real targets that melta is necessary against are AV 13 and 14 vehicles, and I have yet to meet an AV 13 vehicle with a high back armor, so really melta is anti-Land Raider primarily. A quick little hop in a Rhino and a dozen krak grenades and a Fist blow or two usually solve my close range armor problems. But anyways, enough of my melta rant. Back on topic.

 

To me, flamers have been good enough to do everything I want to do against most of my opponents - I don't run into too many MCs around these parts. However, with so many armies now pushing badass close combat models that are designed to be tough to kill, plasma is appearing in my lists again. Nothing much else has the power to fell any one "organic" target as quickly.

[Commander Proteus]

Plasma has always worked well for me, not just for the high strength and low AP, but because its the best special weapon to accommodate gunline tactics in tactical squads.

 

Right now, I run one of my squads with a plasma gun, heavy bolter, and either storm bolter or combi-plasma on the sgt. I haven't tested this much, but in theory alone, that's a lot of firepower.

 

And as Grey Mage put it, there was a melta-rush when tanks got tougher, and yeah, I got some more melta...but I didn't drop my plasma guns to do it.

 

Now, I'll admit, when I played DA, I had a LOT MORE plasma weaponry than I do now. I've since gone to a great little rehab, and I've made good progress beating my addiction.

 

-Proteus

[Destaro]

Just played a 1,000 point game yesterday with a "Plasma Spam" list. Two Squads of Devs with 4 Plasma Cannons, two Tac Squads with Plasma Gun/Plasma Cannnon, a Dread w/PC and a Master of the Forge (twin-linked plasma pistol on the servo harness) against a Plague Marine list. Brought the Daemon Prince down to 1 wound on first turn of shooting and dropped a squad of Plague Marines down to the Aspiring Champion. By turn 3, a Greater Daemon and 2 lesser daemons were all that remained. The Plasma Cannon in the Tac squads wasn't that great because of the range difference, but otherwise everything clicked on all cylinders. A little Melta to deal with LR's and the like, and I might field something similar on a regular basis. Just some food for thought ;)

[Cameron Magnus]

I dont have but one actual plasma canon cause I just cant find them at my LGS.

 

Despite this I just played a friendly game against nids. Some 3500pts and I had five tactical squads all with Counts as Plasma cannons. I have never used them to this scale and I had a bunch of combi plasma as well. I had never had such success with shooting at nids.

 

The Cannon may cost more but its a middle range heavy with its template making it versatile against troops and the strength and AP against monstrous creatures as well.

 

I was throughly impressed with it and am pondering actualy buying three more if I can.

 

CAM

 

P.S. I also just finished my Command Squad with all plasma pistols and power weapons. The FNP roll on the gets hot wounds will be killer.