Dealing with those Damned Bug?

[MuGGzy]

Over the years, no matter what army I played, I always had a ton of trouble dealing with Nids. There was a local player that had a very basic list, almost all Hormagaunts and 2-3 of the artillery bugs and a couple big ones. So if I stayed back and shot the horde as it came, he blew holes in my line with the spores, if I went and met the gaunts, I get bogged down in a sea of melee dice.

 

I am going to attempt a pure GK force and at most maybe field a squad or two of IST but would rather not. What would you that have figured out how to deal with horde armies suggest I bring to deal with this.

[avatar8481]

In order to have any hope you'll need to be in tanks. which for pure GK is raiders, which limits your options/size of your force dramatically. Every indication is that with the volume of dice the new 'nids codex will put out there, any foot army is dead on the second turn. Guard might make it a contest, but everybody else will need the protection of the tank skin to ensure they can fire back. Essentially the newest Codex (Guard, nids etc) are real 5th edition armies, where mech is the key to survival, though in the case of nids it's that mech is the key to your survival, not theirs.

 

Good luck fighting the newest codex with lots of options and choices optimized for the newest edition of the rules with nearly the oldest with overcosted, ineffiecent units and bad rules complicated by poor wargear, even if they are the coolest models.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Most every game against hordes that I've dealt with has come down to two factors:

 

1: Templates (incinerators galore!)

2: number of troops with a basic weapon (in our case, hellguns/bolters/storm bolters)

 

Fancy things tend to not work, and even though you know you're going to be outnumbered, plan on being REALLY outnumbered. You may wish to try funky things like a Purgation squad with 4 incinerators, the new Land Raider Redeemer, inducted IG platoons with hordes of flamers being speed bumps, things like that. You need to have things to deal with the big bugs, but the biggest immediate threat will be being overrun by the horde.

 

'Nids tend to always give me a hard time too.. them and Necrons :rolleyes:

[number6]

In 4th edition 40K, only 'nidzilla gave me fits. (Probably lost a bit more to them than beat them, to be honest.) But "typical" or "horde" 'nids were relatively easy. GKs outshoot such armies and clean up in assaults, too. Carnifexes and hive tyrants alike aren't too difficult for basic GK squads to take down.

 

And I always had an Eversor around, too. Carnifex-killer supreme, that guy was. :)

 

5th edition 40K hit the 4e 'nids codex with a big ol' nerf bat. I haven't lost to 'nids since 5th edition with either of my armies (I also play Tau). So enjoy your brief window of dominance. It'll be over in about 3-4 weeks. Because...

 

The new 5e 'nids are getting a boost. A well-deserved one, IMHO. They won't be overpowered in comparison to the other 5e codexes (Marines, IG, Space Wolves), but will be directly on a par with them.

 

AND they'll kick the crap out of any and all foot armies in existence, save perhaps foot/wolf cav Space Wolves. I guarantee it.

 

Furthermore, if you play pure GK you will lose every game you play against the new 'nids. I (almost) guarantee it. (I posit this based on approximately equal skill levels between opposing players.) The reasons? The new 'nids will be significantly stronger in shooting than GKs. And they'll be significantly deadlier in assault than they were previously. AND they'll be able to field both more MCs and more gribblies at the same time than is currently possible.

 

They are getting stronger in every phase of the game. They will be fast, furious, and brutal.

 

You will HAVE to mech up to have any chance of hanging with the Tyranids. If you can't wall off part of the field, if you can't feed sacrificial speedbumps to slow the advance, you will be eaten alive.

 

Pure GK can only take, at most 3 land raider chassis. That will not work. Those raiders will get popped and your GKs will get swamped. Game over in 4 turns or less in most games, I promise you.

 

DH players need to give up playing pure GK if they want to compete in 5th edition. Even armies built from the entire DH codex -- with a heavy reliance on mech IST for a backbone -- is rapidly becoming Not Good Enough. I am fairly certain that the new 'nids will spell doom for any DH list that isn't inducting IG, to be entirely, bluntly honest.

 

So, all that said, I don't have any advice for what you can do as a pure GK player against 'nids. In my honest estimation, there is nothing you can do to compete against them. You need to revise your army entirely. I would strongly recommend figuring out how to incorporate inducted IG into your forces. That's the way forward from 2010 on until a new GK/DH codex is released.

[MuGGzy]

Hmm, not having the IG Dex...

 

How would I add something like a couple Hellhounds maybe? Would this help? Maybe several IST squads with flamers in Chimeras?

[number6]

Hmm, not having the IG Dex...

 

How would I add something like a couple Hellhounds maybe? Would this help? Maybe several IST squads with flamers in Chimeras?

You can't induct hellhounds. :)

 

I would still take the 5x ISTs with 2x melta. You need meltas to harm Big Bugs. Take two of them for your core Troops, but don't buy them DH rides. Induct at least one IG platoon. I would make the PCS 4 flamers in a Chimera. Put a heavy weapon (lascannon or autocannon) on the 2 required infantry squads. Get them Chimeras as well and give those Chimeras to your ISTs. Then load up on heavy weapons teams -- autocannons and lascannons all the way. That lets you scythe down hordes and put wounds on Big Bugs with equal aplomb. All the Chimeras get hull heavy flamers, so any gribblies that want to try and open your cans better do it or get fried for trying.

 

GKs still have a role to play, they're just no longer the focus of the army. You can still make good use of a mini-purgation squad or two. Land raider crusaders with GKs/GKTs inside (with 1-2 incinerators, perhaps) are still awesome. You just can't build an entire army out of them. You need balance, overall. And bodies. And vehicles. And more weapons. IG get you all these things for cheap. Consider a 2nd IG platoon as well.

 

And such an army is better overall against all opponents, not just 'nids. But you'll have to adjust thusly if you want to have a shot against 'nids. They're going to be the single most difficult matchup for the DH out of all the armies.

 

EDIT: Forgot to say that GKs in Chimeras are awesome. Taken in units of 5 -- GKTs or PAGKs -- they can all fire their stormbolters -- and psycannons :) -- out the top hatch.

[SamaNagol]

I understand the benefits of the speed bumps, but what's the benefit of wasting several hundred points on immobile meatshields in an army which relies solely on it's ability to move and fire at mid range distances? Sure, the couple extra Lascannon and Autocannon would be nice, but you can slap those on a Dreadnought and keep the ISTs in the Rhino.

 

Not trying to be a smart arse at all, because I don't know exactly what revisions there will be to Tyrnaid shooting, but I doubt they will have a lot to pop Land Raiders with from across the board. That would be broken as all hell!

[Grand Master Caloth]

Actually, i havent had too much trouble with nids. Incinerators and Psycannons make for very bad day for Nids, and I only have 1 LRC and 2 Dreads. 3 squads of 9 with a GM with retinue, all at 1850, and i manage some really good games, win and loss

[wizard12]

I understand the benefits of the speed bumps, but what's the benefit of wasting several hundred points on immobile meatshields in an army which relies solely on it's ability to move and fire at mid range distances? Sure, the couple extra Lascannon and Autocannon would be nice, but you can slap those on a Dreadnought and keep the ISTs in the Rhino.

 

Not trying to be a smart arse at all, because I don't know exactly what revisions there will be to Tyrnaid shooting, but I doubt they will have a lot to pop Land Raiders with from across the board. That would be broken as all hell!

 

That "meat shield" will kill any nid coming within 12"

seriously, a full platoon with out chimeras can put up to 393 lasgun shots and 5 mortor shots BEFORE upgrades

 

That is considering haveing enough officers to order the whole platoon to first rank fire.

You can take up to four of those.

[SamaNagol]

That's an awful lot of points to spend to get a bunch of anti-infantry shooting which GKs are great at doing anyway. Like I said, I get the Heavy Weapons teams, more Lascannon is always good. I just don't get the large number of bodies or what they do for a Daemonhunters force. Seems to have turned into what can a Grey Knights Terminators do for Imperial Guard solution as opposed to making the DH dex work.

[Gentlemanloser]

I am fairly certain that the new 'nids will spell doom for any DH list that isn't inducting IG, to be entirely, bluntly honest.

 

And this makes me sad.

 

We're at a point where if you're thinking about inducting IG, you should really be considering *playing* IG and allying in the handful of DH units you were going to use anyway.

 

And I don't like the army men. Never have, and will never want to play them.

[number6]

Not trying to be a smart arse at all, because I don't know exactly what revisions there will be to Tyrnaid shooting, but I doubt they will have a lot to pop Land Raiders with from across the board. That would be broken as all hell!

Are you aware that zoanthropes are cheap, can be bought in multiples still, are no longer 0-1 for choices, are now Elites (so don't compete with 'nid Heavies), and have an 18" S10 AP1 lance? And are protected by a 3+ invul save, too. And they have an improved BS, too.

 

That's just zoanthropes for shooting. The new 'nids have other shooting options, too, especially considering that most armies can't -- and shouldn't (DH included) -- spam land raiders and expect to have a strong army as result. Relying entirely on land raiders is creating a rock army, not a balanced army.

 

'Nids will also be able to reliably pop any armour in close combat just from sheer number of attacks. Even AV14 because, as I said, 'nidzilla will be even cheaper to field and the 'nid general will still be able to field a decent amount of gribblies, too.

 

And I disagree about this being "broken". It's taken 18 months, but most of the 40K player base has finally, at long last, figured out that mech >> foot. If the new 'nids couldn't beat up on tanks, nobody would play them. GW had to give them can openers or the army wouldn't sell.

 

The new 'nids will be what finally causes the 5th edition light to dawn on all 40K armies, not just the Inquisition. Create mech or semi-mechanized armies ... or die.

Actually, i havent had too much trouble with nids. Incinerators and Psycannons make for very bad day for Nids, and I only have 1 LRC and 2 Dreads. 3 squads of 9 with a GM with retinue, all at 1850, and i manage some really good games, win and loss

My experience with the current 'nids codex in 5th edition has been the same. 4e 'nid codex in 5e 40K is a very weak army. As I said earlier: enjoy this last brief window of dominance. 5e 'nids are a totally new beast. Your old tricks and your old, mostly foot 4e DH army will not be able to handle them.

That's an awful lot of points to spend to get a bunch of anti-infantry shooting which GKs are great at doing anyway.

Firstly, IG can bring more anti-infantry to bear than GKs can point for point. The IG is more points-efficient, that's a fact. Secondly, it's really more about the heavy weapons and Chimeras that makes the IG strong for the Inquisition, and absolutely required for the DH. The DH have always been seriously gimped in both categories. This should not be news to any of us, even those of us that picked the army up way back when it was first released.

 

(And it's worthing noting that GW's own design notes from back then -- and hinted at in the DH codex itself -- clearly stated that the army was always designed to work with the IG. All non-IG builds were purposefully meant to be weaker because it was considered "unfluffy" to not include IG. There's a reason all the GKs and Inquisition models are metal, ya know? :) )

 

5th edition and the 5e codexes that have followed have only emphasized those weaknesses. They have turned those weaknesses into critical failures that must be alleviated. IG is the way to do it. It has always been the way to do it. Nothing has actually changed in that respect. All that has changed is the urgency of those needs.

Seems to have turned into what can a Grey Knights Terminators do for Imperial Guard solution as opposed to making the DH dex work.

This is only partially true. Even relying on a backbone of inducted IG, a DH army plays significantly differently than an IG army with allied GKs. GKs end up being elite generalists that fulfill multiple battlefield roles. Land raiders are critical to this, of course. IG don't have anything at all like that, and even allying won't give them access to land raiders. This forces an IG player wanting to make use of GKs to give up many multiple Chimeras to make the GKs work for them. IG also relies heavily on a wide variety of units to fulfill various specialized battlefield roles. Whereas what every DH army has always wanted and needed was big chunks of cheap infantry with heavy weapons on the table because GKs can do almost everything else. The Chimeras are just gravy on top of that.

We're at a point where if you're thinking about inducting IG, you should really be considering *playing* IG and allying in the handful of DH units you were going to use anyway.

This will depend on what focus you'd like your army to have. But the DH aren't as fortunate as the WH. You can make stunningly potent all-Sisters armies. The DH have never been able to make stunningly potent all-GK armies. 5th edition has merely cemented into place the fluff for GKs: they are rare elites that have a huge impact on a battle, but aren't an army in and of themselves.

[Gentlemanloser]

5th edition has merely cemented into place the fluff for GKs: they are rare elites that have a huge impact on a battle, but aren't an army in and of themselves.

 

Yeah, which the newer Codexes are starting to diminsh.

 

Why take GK (any..) in a SM Army, when they lose out on the Chapter Tactics you will have. PAGK are outshot by Sternguard, and aren't as survivable in CC as a Command Squad, or as potent in CC as an Honour Guard Squad.

 

And there's no real reason to ever use them in a SW army, as point for point 5 TWC out CC 10 PAGK, and with equivalently costing, potentially scoring, WGT with Frost Blades, GKT aren't really that attractive either.

 

GK do work better with the IG, but I've aired my dislike of those above. :P

 

I'm sure we'll see little reason to add GKs to the new BA dex that will be out soon.

[SamaNagol]

An 18" St10 AP1 Lance weapon thankfully isn't from across the board. Although that is hideous. At least you can out-maneuvre that. And I would fully expect them to be able to peel open LRs in CC. But if they were able to just sit back and pop off shots from across the board and force you to come to them, they would be broken.

 

3+ invulnerable you say? Good grief. What is their T and W? That's going to really throw a spanner in the works of target priority taking down the big uns. I may even consider a suicide squad of 5 teleporters with 2 Psycannon and a Justicar with Psycannon Bolts for such a threat. At least they compete with the Elite Carnifexes for slots.

[Magnus Thane]

Small sidenote on the 'fluff' part.

GK's are in a lot of situations meant to work alone. Varying sources including Planetstrike reference full GK teams going in solo to deal with a huge Daemonic threat.

GK's should be difficult yes...but they should still be somewhat competitive.

If an option is there to play a pure GK force it should be at least somewhat playable, like it was in the past. By now of course things have deteroriated simply due to codex creep and rule-changes.

 

It also irks me that some people (not saying people in this thread) are at times almost hostile towards pure GK players for not inducting guard or the likes. Which may not have been the point for collecting the force to begin with.

[Grand Master Caloth]

I am sad to say I agree with you, Magnus.... and like you, its not directed AT anyone particularly... but im damn proud that my GKs stand alone. Against Bugs, Crons, Chaos, SMs, anyone. I win some, lose some, but they are good games, and the ambiant distaste/hostility to those of us who chose not to involve other imperial forces in our battles recieve, if only ambiantly. We are still a list capable of winning, even against bugs, and we will continue to press on against the Foe despite disadvantages and setbacks, until the Mechanicus comes to rearm us with newer, stronger equipment (or until the new codex, whichever chances to happen first)

[number6]

At least they compete with the Elite Carnifexes for slots.

No more Elite Carnifexes. All carnies are Heavies, now, and can be bought in units of 1-3 each. So Zoanthropes are really only competing against the other shooty Elite options or the new Venomthrope.

 

Regarding attitude: I apologize if I have seemed "hostile" toward 5e pure GK armies. Remember, I used to play pure GK all the time! My only beef with it is when people attempt to make the army "competitive" in the new environment, generally fail, and then ask what can be done to help. The answer is: induct IG. You can't make pure GK "competitive" anymore. Just can't be done. If you're OK with that, happy gaming to you! Sincerely! :P But nobody can magically create rules or units that will help pure GK armies out. Only GW can do that. Pure GK is a very weak army, currently. That's the fact of it.

[Magnus Thane]

Yep. Hence I collect it for fun/look atm.

I still hope GW will make a pure GK list more potent with the next DH or Inquisition codex. (or maybe a GK codex? :P )

Anyway Tournament level lists are always a bit... demanding in what to take. So I perfectly understant IST are needed for that. HECK we NEED them just to be able to more easily take objectives. Maybe in time I'll get some IST's and an Inquisitor+retinue. Should be fun for Planetstrike. (with GK's coming to the rescue!)

But for now I'll focus on GK's. ^___^

 

As for 'nids... incinerators, flamers etc seem vital.

Also 'just shooting' or 'just assaulting' probably aren't the way to go. You'll need to mix. Shoot to thin out and counterassault at the right moment. Hanging back is deadly. Rushing too early probably even worse.

[SamaNagol]

It is going to be very difficult to remove all of their long range threats though without taking a bunch of expensive upgrades on things like Psycannon bolts etc.

[Justicar Valius]

Apparently even the great GKT won't stand up to the nids by the sound of this: CLICK ME

[number6]

Apparently even the great GKT won't stand up to the nids by the sound of this: CLICK ME

Well, you don't want to get into close combat with a hive tyrant, that's for sure! ;) And a swarm of termagants or hormagaunts with adrenal glands and poison will eat any infantry on the table, GKs and GKTs included.

 

From my own analysis of the army, you will require roadblocks and sacrificial units to beat the 'nids. You have to stall them as much as you can to give you maximum time to SHOOT them down. GKs are great anti-infantry shooting units, but they're so expensive that you can't get enough on their own. ISTs in transports and inducted IG will be necessary to defeat the 'nids. A tri-raider GK list will not suffice. Not enough firepower to kill both MCs and gribblies fast enough. And without any screen, the raiders will get opened by zoanthropes or MCs with rerolls. Even heavy venom cannons are worrisome. They won't be able to kill the raiders, but they will be able to prevent them from shooting. Without any shooting from the raiders -- already not enough -- the 'nids will just march on up, surround the raiders, open them up, and eat the juicy GKs inside.

 

As I noted earlier, 'nids more than any other 5e codex will spell the end both for all-foot 40K armies in general, and pure GK armies -- mech, foot, doesn't matter -- in particular.

[SamaNagol]

Actually, a GM with GKT would be the best thing for killing a Hive Tyrant. He still instant kills and cannot be targeted by the high Initiative Tyrant.

 

Land Raiders, assuming they haven't been popped by Warp Lance, are the best thing for making the most of Incinerators by tank shocking the innumerable horde into teardrop shaped death rows. Especially with Hurricane Bolters.

 

I'm always naturally scared of armies that can put out a load of shots that can pop Raiders. Thankfully it appears GK have a lot of natural counters to these guys.

[jeffersonian000]

I play regularly against a 'Nidzilla player with me pure GK (Tri-Raider list), and I've only won games by playing to the mission. Frankly, there is nothing in our armoury and unit selections that can stop a handful of S10, T8, 2+ Sv MC's from washing over your units on a standard game board using the three rulebook deployments by turn 3. I've found that in kill point games, I'm pretty much screwed. In Capture and Control, a draw is about the best I can achieve. In Seize Ground, however, conservative play and last turn grabs for objects usually results in a win. That's pretty much a 1/1/1 (W/L/D) every time.

 

The alternative is the Genestealer heavy army, with virtually every unit outflanking or hiding in cover (Lictors); pure GK does well as long as close combat is avoids. Our guys just cannot deal with an overwhelming number of attacks at I6. Shoot, shoot, then shoot some more.

 

Against Gaunt heavy armies, just thank your opponent for bringing a soft list and see what they'd like to play after your very short game is done.

 

With a "balanced" 'Nid army I've found that, again, playing to the mission will see you through to a win most times by focusing of the units you can break early in the game while dealing with the tougher targets mid to late game will tie up enough enemy units to push a lost into a drawn, and a draw into a win.

 

That is, of course, versus the current codex. The new 'Nid codex seem to be designed to kill Marine armies, while being weak versus IG. At least that's my read on what I've seen of the new codex. And unfortunately for us, pure GK is a niche Marine army. We should start seeing more "balanced" armies than all MC or all 'Stealer armies, which would seem to be a good thing. Yet look at the dynamic of the newer 'Nid units: higher toughness on average for their bigger units versus marginally higher cost per unit, while infantry level units got cheaper with nerfed range attacks. Smaller numbers will hurt Marines since armor will be crushed by most "Nid units, and virtually all of the newer 'Nids attack before I1 on their base stat line. Yet IG has the ability to field massed lascannon fire without reducing their massed small arms fire, two factors that the rumored new 'Nids will be weak to.

 

This means that until our new codex is released, Inducted Guard/Allying with Guard is our only reasonable solution to dealing with the bug.

 

Bye, bye Tri-Raider lists. Hello … Quad-Raider lists?

 

SJ

[the jeske]

T8

someone has been cheating you.

[DinoDoc]

This thread has made me realize how much the Ordo Malleus really wants to bring the GK Redeemer from the realm of Forgeworld into that of 40K proper.