Wolf Guard vs. 10th man

[Notanoob]

The topic name makes it obvious. What do you think about attaching a wolf guard to a unit as opposed to having ten men in the squad (excluding the option of footsloging it). I personally think that it would be better if one were to go with the ten man squad. The damage output of the squad drops little with the inclusion of a Power Fist and/or Mark of Wulfen. Considering how hard our Marines are in hand to hand, surly being able to have a fist, D6 Rending attacks and a melta gun a better idea? I know that you get the extra Ld, but do you think that it is worth it?

[SamaNagol]

Wolf guard is much better value.

 

3pts more for an extra attack and Fri 18 Dec 2009. You make that back with a cheaper Power First too. For the 5pts saved u can buy a combi weapon and also make uyp for the lack of special weapon.

 

It is better in every way apart from getting more than 1 turn shooting with a 2nd special weapon. Well worth it when balanced against all the advantages

[Sarapham]

I agree mostly with SamaNagol except when it comes to Plasma-gun squads which I personally find more use with if they have 10 men and 2 true plasma-guns.

[Athalus]

Be so much easier if they could just squeeze in 11, i mean seriously, someone sit on someone's lap and we are good to go.

[jester262]

what does friday Dec. 18th, which is today, have to do with anything? I'm confused?

[Valerian]

what does friday Dec. 18th, which is today, have to do with anything? I'm confused?

 

Probably just a fat-finger copy and paste error. Don't let it worry you.

 

V

[Brother Amarel]

what does friday Dec. 18th, which is today, have to do with anything? I'm confused?

It's the day that the fall to Slaanesh began...

 

Be so much easier if they could just squeeze in 11, i mean seriously, someone sit on someone's lap and we are good to go.

[Wildfire]

what does friday Dec. 18th, which is today, have to do with anything? I'm confused?

It's the day that the fall to Slaanesh began...

 

Be so much easier if they could just squeeze in 11, i mean seriously, someone sit on someone's lap and we are good to go.

 

Ok, that made me laugh so hard my girlfriend demanded to know what was going on. I just finished trying to explain the concept of Slaanesh to her. Damn you!

[Wolf Guard Dan]

what does friday Dec. 18th, which is today, have to do with anything? I'm confused?

It's the day that the fall to Slaanesh began...

 

Be so much easier if they could just squeeze in 11, i mean seriously, someone sit on someone's lap and we are good to go.

 

Ok, that made me laugh so hard my girlfriend demanded to know what was going on. I just finished trying to explain the concept of Slaanesh to her. Damn you!

I hope you took your time in teaching her the concept of Slaanesh :D

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Grey Hunters 10 man squad. 2 Mg. Power fist. 180 pts.

Grey Hunters 9 man squad. 1 Mg. Wolf Guard. Powerfist. Combi-melta. 183 pts.

 

The WG led squad gets 1 Mg shot versus potentially 6* (but probably more like 3 or 4). They get 1 extra PF attack per round of cc. I think this makes it fairly even in kill output but Ld 9 clinches it for the WG.

 

 

For a dedicated shooting squad, having 2 proper Pg will be better than the combi-Pg.

 

Which is pretty much what Sarapham said.

[Thunderpup]

Personally i like having my small packs be 5 Grey hunters w/ MotW, Power Weapon, and a Meltagun along with a WG with Powerfist and Meltagun. Gives me 5 different wargear loadouts for wound allocation and 6 attacks that ignore armor saves.

[Chalx the grey]

The way I see it, it just depends on what do you want it for:

 

9 man Melta gun pack with WG pF combi-melta in rhinos.Mobile, offensive.

Full 10 man squad with double plasma AND WG terminator with chainfist. Footslogging, fire support middle objective holders.

 

Get a couple of the first one and one of the second and good to go!

 

They both have a WG though, but the termie squad leader with chainfist (I don't think walkers would be coming any close) is too cool to pass up!

[TiguriusX]

Grey Hunters 10 man squad. 2 Mg. Power fist. 180 pts.

Grey Hunters 9 man squad. 1 Mg. Wolf Guard. Powerfist. Combi-melta. 183 pts.

 

The WG led squad gets 1 Mg shot versus potentially 6* (but probably more like 3 or 4). They get 1 extra PF attack per round of cc. I think this makes it fairly even in kill output but Ld 9 clinches it for the WG.

 

 

For a dedicated shooting squad, having 2 proper Pg will be better than the combi-Pg.

 

Which is pretty much what Sarapham said.

 

A WG squad gets 1 MG shot only...and a full GH squad gets 6*? Really?

 

So the true melta gun just stops firing for the heck of it?

 

In a 6 turn game these are the maximum possible firings

WG+GH:7

2xmelta:12

 

Realistically you will be moving approximately 2 turns to get into range leaving 4 turns for firing:

WG+GH:5

2xmelta:8

 

If you are firing at vehicles you usually don't get 4 turns of firing...I would say 2 rounds of short range melta is your best case scenario

WG+GH:3

2xmelta:4

 

If you are firing a medium or heavy armor odds are you will be in close combat instead of firing unmolested.

 

I think there are very few situations where a full GH squad with a second melta has the advantage...they exist but they are not as likely to occur and may not be worth the slight benefit

[WG Vrox]

I pretty much run a Power Fist in every GH squad, so as pointed out for the 3 extra points getting a PF that has 1 more attack and leadership of 9 which mathhammer wise is worth loosing the special weapon in and by itself, the choice is clear.

 

WG CFlm/PF 9 GH with Melta / PW / Wolf Standard. < my standard squad for a Assaulty Rhino

 

WG CM/PF 7 GH with PG / Wolf Standard. < my standard squad for a Shooty Rhino add RP for spice.

 

WG TDA CM/CF 8 GH with PG/ PW/ Wolf Stadards. < my standard squad for a DP or LR

 

WG TDA CM/CF 10 GH Flammer/Melta / PW / MotW / Wolf Standard. < my standard squad for LRC / LRR.

 

WG TDA CML CM/CF 10 GH PG/PG / Wolf Standard < Standard squad for footsloggin

 

Vrox

[Valerian]

Grey Hunters 10 man squad. 2 Mg. Power fist. 180 pts.

Grey Hunters 9 man squad. 1 Mg. Wolf Guard. Powerfist. Combi-melta. 183 pts.

 

The WG led squad gets 1 Mg shot versus potentially 6* (but probably more like 3 or 4). They get 1 extra PF attack per round of cc. I think this makes it fairly even in kill output but Ld 9 clinches it for the WG.

 

 

For a dedicated shooting squad, having 2 proper Pg will be better than the combi-Pg.

 

Which is pretty much what Sarapham said.

 

A WG squad gets 1 MG shot only...and a full GH squad gets 6*? Really?

 

He's not really talking about the whole unit. One of the Melta Guns will be the same, regardless of whether you take a second Melta Gun Hunter or chose to go with a Wolf Guard instead, so he is ignoring that one. Thus, he is saying that with a second Melta Gun Hunter the unit would get up to 6 opportunities to shoot his special weapon (based on a 6 turn game), whereas a Wolf Guard with Combi Melta would only get 1 shot. Marshal_Wilhelm is saying the same thing as you, but in a different way.

 

I think there are very few situations where a full GH squad with a second melta has the advantage...they exist but they are not as likely to occur and may not be worth the slight benefit

 

Here is the rub. In order to determine which choice is best for you, you have to make some judgment calls. As pointed out, there is the potential for 4-6 additional Melta Gun shots (depending on random game length) if you take a second Hunter with the Melta Gun. However, the range on that weapon is only 12", and the Melta advantage (additional d6 on the AP roll) only occurs within 6". You have to judge how many extra opportunities above the single shot that a Combi Melta Wolf Guard would get in a typical game. Chances are, you wouldn't be able to take advantage of too many extra shots, but would very often be able to take advantage of the extra PF/TH attack and higher Ld of the Wolf Guard.

 

Initially I was leaning toward the double Melta Grey Hunter pack for my Drop Pods, but am now inclined to take the single Melta with a TDA Wolf Guard with Combi Melta and Chain Fist in those Pods.

 

My Rear Consolidation unit will have Dual Plasma Guns, but as they are Footslogging I can still add a Wolf Guard and don't have to sacrifice.

 

Valerian

[Niiai]

Personally i like having my small packs be 5 Grey hunters w/ MotW, Power Weapon, and a Meltagun along with a WG with Powerfist and Meltagun. Gives me 5 different wargear loadouts for wound allocation and 6 attacks that ignore armor saves.

 

I do not think you know what wound allocation is. Wounf alocation is giving different wargear to different people so that you can put damadge where you want. You can always do that -exept- when you have units with multiple wounds where you need to knock out one unit before you would have needed to if you can wound alocate. Given that all of the GH have 1 wound, you are not realy "wound alocating".

 

As for using WG I prefer that for the argumenst previusly givven. In addition, if you reacg the magical number number of 5 to 10 you get a new toy, and boy are they mean! :-)

[TiguriusX]

Grey Hunters 10 man squad. 2 Mg. Power fist. 180 pts.

Grey Hunters 9 man squad. 1 Mg. Wolf Guard. Powerfist. Combi-melta. 183 pts.

 

The WG led squad gets 1 Mg shot versus potentially 6* (but probably more like 3 or 4). They get 1 extra PF attack per round of cc. I think this makes it fairly even in kill output but Ld 9 clinches it for the WG.

 

 

For a dedicated shooting squad, having 2 proper Pg will be better than the combi-Pg.

 

Which is pretty much what Sarapham said.

 

A WG squad gets 1 MG shot only...and a full GH squad gets 6*? Really?

 

He's not really talking about the whole unit. One of the Melta Guns will be the same, regardless of whether you take a second Melta Gun Hunter or chose to go with a Wolf Guard instead, so he is ignoring that one. Thus, he is saying that with a second Melta Gun Hunter the unit would get up to 6 opportunities to shoot his special weapon (based on a 6 turn game), whereas a Wolf Guard with Combi Melta would only get 1 shot. Marshal_Wilhelm is saying the same thing as you, but in a different way.

 

I think there are very few situations where a full GH squad with a second melta has the advantage...they exist but they are not as likely to occur and may not be worth the slight benefit

 

Here is the rub. In order to determine which choice is best for you, you have to make some judgment calls. As pointed out, there is the potential for 4-6 additional Melta Gun shots (depending on random game length) if you take a second Hunter with the Melta Gun. However, the range on that weapon is only 12", and the Melta advantage (additional d6 on the AP roll) only occurs within 6". You have to judge how many extra opportunities above the single shot that a Combi Melta Wolf Guard would get in a typical game. Chances are, you wouldn't be able to take advantage of too many extra shots, but would very often be able to take advantage of the extra PF/TH attack and higher Ld of the Wolf Guard.

 

Initially I was leaning toward the double Melta Grey Hunter pack for my Drop Pods, but am now inclined to take the single Melta with a TDA Wolf Guard with Combi Melta and Chain Fist in those Pods.

 

My Rear Consolidation unit will have Dual Plasma Guns, but as they are Footslogging I can still add a Wolf Guard and don't have to sacrifice.

 

Valerian

 

After re-reading his post in light of your explanation I see the discrepancy. Although he was mentioning the entire squad he was focused on the WG Combi-melta (1 shot) vs. the extra GH melta gun (6*). The usage of the terms "squad" and "shots" had me thinking he was arguing total shots not difference (even though he still agreed WG is superior) and I wanted to clarify total number of shots.

 

When I first started playing WH40k I thought combi-weapons were stupid. Why pay for a single shot! Now I understand that between all the movement and close combat a single shot can be extremely valuable.

 

To summarize (as the general consensus appears to be) WG w/ combi-melta versus the 10th GH with a melta gun....over the course of a game...under real conditions...the difference is around 1-2 shots over the course of the game. In exchange you get additional leadership and additional base PF attacks.

 

I still refuse to put combi-plasma on my WG pack leaders though...risk of losing the leadership + PF is too high!

[Valerian]

When I first started playing WH40k I thought combi-weapons were stupid. Why pay for a single shot! Now I understand that between all the movement and close combat a single shot can be extremely valuable.

 

Well, they used to be more expensive, too (IIRC). At 5 points, they are much more pallatable.

 

To summarize (as the general consensus appears to be) WG w/ combi-melta versus the 10th GH with a melta gun....over the course of a game...under real conditions...the difference is around 1-2 shots over the course of the game. In exchange you get additional leadership and additional base PF attacks.

 

I'd say so. The only armies in which this isn't going to be the preferred load out are those that simply don't have room for any Wolf Guard units at all, based on their having chosen alternate Elite choices instead. For those few, however, there is no conflict and taking the 10 man unit with second special weapon is a non-issue.

 

I still refuse to put combi-plasma on my WG pack leaders though...risk of losing the leadership + PF is too high!

 

If you put that pack leader in TDA though, you are reducing his chance of killing himself by half, and he nearly gets the TDA for free (codex is at home, but TDA for Wolf Guard is cheap!).

 

V

[SamaNagol]

If you put ur GH WG Pack Leader in Terminator Armour, you are only going to be able to transport the squad in a Crusader or Redeemer. And then you may as well just take 10 GHs anyway and keep the Plasma off the WG.

[Niiai]

I agree. Combi plasma and TDA is a unvalid argument since the premisses for the 10 man squad is riding in a drop pod or rhino. (In a drop pod you can use the TDA though. Only costst you one man you can prodtect your super melee weapon that mutch better.)

 

Anyway, I still feel that the 5 man and 10 man line for super TDA ranged weaponds is good to keep in mind. Also, if you go for the Wolf Guard option, you can still put a hero in that unit without messing up tyhe wapon loads outs. If that hero is a non-rune rpiest you can even include a 3rd(!) combi weapon. Although that might not be sooo cool if you have a frost weapon or a claw witch are solid choises for the I5 heroes. The Wolf Priest on the otherhand would probably love an ekstra combi weapon at the cost of a pover sword attack. -_-

[Sarapham]

I still refuse to put combi-plasma on my WG pack leaders though...risk of losing the leadership + PF is too high!

 

 

I agree with this and I also see it was a bang for your buck-descision. With a combi-plasma.. sure you can drop up to two more extra tough dudes with is and maybe pop a light transport which can be fine an dandy.

 

But the the combi-melta that one shot has a pretty good chance of popping any tank in the game if close enough, and that tank probably means a lot more to your opponent in most games than those up-to-two tough dudes ever will.

 

So the one shot with the melta can do alot with that one shot, the single plasma burst feel bit more.. meh.

[Niiai]

If you have enough anti-tanl and you have a small unit in a transport or DP a flamer and a combi flamer in the group is perfect for taking out smaler units. 2xflame template is harsh! :lol:

[Valerian]

If you put ur GH WG Pack Leader in Terminator Armour, you are only going to be able to transport the squad in a Crusader or Redeemer. And then you may as well just take 10 GHs anyway and keep the Plasma off the WG.

 

You didn't account for the Drop Pod, which would be when this would be appropriate (that and when Footslogging).

 

V

[Marek Grimfang]

Adding an HQ or IC to this squad I find is a little better than shelling out for WG with all their wargear.

 

7 x GH, 1 x GH with MG, WG, WGL.

 

 

Also, I don't hear or see of anyone taking a PW with a GH in addition to the WGL PW/PF.

[Valerian]

Adding an HQ or IC to this squad I find is a little better than shelling out for WG with all their wargear.

 

7 x GH, 1 x GH with MG, WG, WGL.

 

Marek, I think that I am confused by your acronyms. The first part is easy; your squad here as 7 Grey Hunters, and 1 Grey Hunter with a Melta Gun. But after that you've lost me, as it looks like you are adding a Wolf Guard (WG) and a Wolf Guard Leader (WGL), which is the same thing, unless you are talking about a Wolf Guard Battle Leader (WGBL) instead? That, however doesn't exactly jive with your first sentence, which is that you prefer to add an Independent Character to a unit, rather than a Wolf Guard Leader for the pack (I think).

 

Can you clarify your point here for us?

 

Also, I don't hear or see of anyone taking a PW with a GH in addition to the WGL PW/PF.

 

As long as there is at least one high-strength weapon in the unit (Power Fist, Chain Fist, or Thunerhammer), then I'm all about taking a Hunter with a Power Weapon along, too. Especially if the unit is intended to be a forward Consolidation force, or Assault-oriented force.

 

V