I think I just got boned

[MadCowCrazy]

From what Ive read from the rulebook you should get a coversave if you are standing on or being behind any terrain piece. Ranging from 3+ - 5+ cover saves.

 

I just played my second game in the tournament at the local gaming club, this time I was vs "the local pro" and I got ownd pretty badly. Was IG vs my SoB, I couldnt even get over half the board before everything was shot dead. He had some lascannons, missile launchter, auto cannons etc in his squads, 1 hellhound, 1 leman russ and 1 vehicle with 4 missiles or some such.

 

When placing the terrain he placed allot of piece on his side of the board, like 5-6 and I had 3 on mine then a fiew in the middle. I rolled for first deployment but didnt think it though and gave it to him, ofc he chose the side he had placed all the terrain pieces on. He had like 5-6 infantry squads and he placed all of them on a terrain piece each.

 

I placed my Seraphim and exorcist behind one terrain piece, my second EX behind another and my 2 rhinos behind the one that was left.

 

So he got to move and shoot first.

 

He started by shooting my vehicles with all his long range AV weapons, most of the time he said I got no cover save because he could see my model trough the terrain.

 

A good example was his las cannon squad that was in a straight line from my first exorcist. In between was a terrain piece with 2 trees on it, it basically looked like this /|\__/|\ and he had line of sight in between the trees. My exorcist was allso behind a small landscape terrain piece with some grass on it and a big rock which my EX was behind but it did not cover 50% of the model. (Basically all the terrain on my side was were low pieces, non preventing LOS and only 50% obscurity from some sides).

 

So he could see my EX from between the trees with 50% of his troop, and my EX was not 50% (more like 40%) covered by the terrain I was behind.

He said I got no cover save because he could see me. When I read the rulebook some days ago I got the impression that him shooting trough the woods should have given me a 4+ and the grass and should have given me a 5+ cover save.

 

Same thing with my Rhinos that were next to eachother being a terrain piece with trees on it, it had 3 trees on it but kind of the same placement as the other one. There was a gap between the trees and he said I got no coversave because he could see me between the trees.

 

Another time he shot me trough a terrain piece where a tree was in the way of his LOS, because it was in the way and he could not see me trough it I got a 4+ cover save. From his logic on terrain I would have thought it would have blocked his line of site making it impossible for him to shoot me but nope.

 

It went down like this basically.

 

Round 1 : He imobilized 1 rhino, destroyed the weapon on the other, stunned 1 exorcist and thats about it.

ME : I moved my EX further behind the cover I had and shot at his leman russ, I rolled a 4 for 4 missiles, I rolled to hit and got 3 hits, then I had to roll to wound on 5+ and failed all. Was shooting at the Leman front armor.

The sisters in the imobilized rhino got out and started slugging it to the other side.

 

Round 2 : He destroyed my stunned exorcist, shot down 3 of my sisters in my 10man squad slugging it and imobilized my remaning EX.

ME : I moved my sisters up by walking and running behind a piece of terrain (a crater), I rolled a 6 for repair on my rhino and got it working again for the next round. Shot with my ex and did nothing.

 

Round 3 : He hit my 7 sisters with a frag missile, I rolled horrible saves and all but 2 died (I got no cover save because he could see me over the terrain piece because his terrain was a bit elevated, doesnt matter since my armorsave was better than what the terrain could have given anyways).

ME : I felt he was not playing right and realised I could never win anyways because I could not get to the other side before being shot to pieces so I gave up.

 

So thats why Im here, is it just me missunderstanding the cover rules and how LOS works or was he screwing me over? This was my second game ever played so I basically accepted everything he did because he is basically "the local pro". Then again he was wrong on all my codex rules the week before when I played and won my first game.

 

Question 1: Do you or do you not get a coversave if you are behind a piece of terrain that is low enough that the enemy can see more than 50% of your vehicle over it.

Question 2: If you are behind a terrain piece with trees on it, if he can see you between the trees do you or do you not get a coversave?

 

He plays Fantasy as well so Im thinking maby he was mixing up some fantasy rules with 40k rules

 

So did I get boned or do I simply not understand the rules correctly.

[Legatus]

Question 1: Do you or do you not get a coversave if you are behind a piece of terrain that is low enough that the enemy can see more than 50% of your vehicle over it.

Usually a model will get a cover save as soon as any part of it's body (head, torso, leg or arm) is covered (see Rulebook, page 21). But Monstrous Creatures (p. 51) and Vehicles (p. 62) are an exception and will only receive a cover save when they are obscured for at least 50%. They are also not getting a cover save for being inside (and presumably behind) area terrain, the 50% rule takes precedence.

 

 

Question 2: If you are behind a terrain piece with trees on it, if he can see you between the trees do you or do you not get a coversave?

If more than 50% of the vehicle's facing (front, side, rear) that is being targeted is hidden, then it will receive a cover save. If there is no LOS at all, there is no LOS and the vehicle cannot be shot (unless the weapon does not need LOS).

[GTang]

If a tree blocks line of sight, he can't shoot you through it. It'd give a cover save (but not necessarily 4+) if you're shot at through the gaps. The cover save vehicles get when 50% or more obscured by cover is the save that the particular terrain piece gives. So if it was a fortification with a 3+ save that obscures, the vehicle gets 3+. If it's 5+, 5+, etc.

[Frosty the Pyro]

He played it right. Troops would have gotten saves for being shot at between trees, but vehicles have to have it literaly blocking sight. Like legatus said, 50% TLOS is the rule for vehicles and MC. Tough luck kiddo.

[Isiah]

I am more worried about how the terrain was set up in this instance. Usually you both set it up so its acceptable to both of you not just one or the other. Either that or the tables are evenly set up by a third person.

 

Whatever, I think had you had any doubts as to the impartiality of how the terrain was set up then you should have said and asked for or agree for the offending bits to be moved elsewhere.

 

Cheers

I

[MadCowCrazy]

Tough luck for me, the terrain was set up a bit unfair imo. He was the one who set it up. I remember reading somewhere that you place one, then he place one, then u place one. I asked him about it but he said that isnt really used anymore. Same with setting up your troops, reason they removed that was something about it taking an hour to set up a game at tournaments.

 

 

Well, now I know allot more about the game atleast.

 

The tournament we are playing is a learning tournament, only 3 ppl (out of 12) have tournament skill playing and they are to teach the rest of us. Most people in the tournament have not played more than 10 games total.

 

I really dont like my troop list but I was not allowed to make the one I wanted to because I was told by "the local pro" said it was a power gamer list.

I wanted 6 Arco, 3 penitent and 2 exorcists, 1 SoB, 1 IST with priest and 1 Canoness. We are running a 1000 point tournament.

He keeps telling me penitents suck really bad and arcos as well. I dont really get why I couldnt take them if they suck so damn much but I guess the list I have will have to do.

We are not allowed to change lists for the tournament.

 

I will pay a bit more attention next week if there is anyone to play a game against then.

 

I realise my army sucks vs a long range shooting army like IG. Last week I played vs tyranids which were pretty much close combat oriented, flamers ftw.

 

Im thinking about playing a WH with IG slaves in it, WH for the cool stuff, IG for a platoon with 20 heavy weapons teams if need be. I think Im going to try out the demolitions pack, seems really fun but completly insane to use.

 

I really like insane units, might not be the best but they seem really cool.

With this I mean; arco, repentia, assassins, penitent engines and DH Deamonhosts.

Id love an army with WH, DH and IG in it but its kinda expensive point wise.

 

 

How does LOS work on troops? Ive have standing and crouching troops and Ive seen an IG sniper thats lying down on a bike base.

If I convert all my sisters so they crouch aim like allot of IG units do, doesnt that mean they are harder to hit? What are the rules about that kind of thing? Heck, why not create crawling arcos on bike bases, they are assault only anyways so might as well make them hard to see, right? Are there any rules about that kind of thing anywhere?

[Nachocuban]

There are no official rules for crouching models, but its very unsportman-like, and some tourny officials might not let you use them.

 

As for your army list, each army has some 'power lists' that can be devastatingly effective. But if your not having fun playing with it, there is no point playing in my opinion. My girlfriend plays SoB, and she loves the insane units too, even if she wins more often with one similar to the one you used.

 

Back to the cover question. Your infantry only need a toe hidden to get a cover save. But your vehicles always need 50% hidden. With the woods, try and determine how dense of a forest they represent before you start. Most of the time in my gaming circle we count any piece of forest over 2 inches thick as unable to shoot through, even if you can actually see through it, you need a place to move your models don't you? But in the end, it comes down to how you and your opponent play.

[Banville]

I'd avise you not to to start effing about with poses and bases. Whilst the opponent you referred to in the original post might have screwed you over on terrain, he adhered to the rules pretty much exactly. What you are proposing is to exploit the letter of the law to undermine its spirit. If you turn up at any table with riduculously posed ,odels there's no way you'll get to play with them.

 

On a more practical note, if you are going to be "lawyeristic" with the basing of your madels your opponent might be just as "Lawyeristic" back and insist that they check True Line Of Sight from everything which may put you at quite a disadvantage. As for the "crawling arcos on bike bases" idea, the rule book specifically precludes this.

 

You do have the rule book, yeah?

[igotsmeakabob!!]

It's sort of difficult to be screwed over with terrain, unless there just isn't that much or there's too much (I don't think there's ever enough, actually).

If he set up all the terrain biased towards one side, you can win the roll and take that side.

[greatcrusade08]

Sounds like you had one of those steep learning curve experiences.

 

first off never hand your opponent the choice of ends, always check for yourself which side benefits you more.

secondly Always check what cover reprisents before the game.

 

please dont let bitterness turn you into a WAAC gamer.. please dont start abusing the LOS rules with crouching models etc.. its really not in the spirit of the game.

 

Whats more had i been playing with someone and 30-40% of thier vehicle was in cover i wouldnt worry about working out how much is in cover, id just give them the cover save and be done...

but we all play differently and the rules do say 50%.. however since its very difficult to work this out properly you could just reduce the cover save and get a 5+ instead of 4+... just allows the game to go on without any long discussions about rules.

 

Furthermore if its a tournament i dont see why these people are moaning about 'power gaming' lists.. when winning is important you need a good list especially when you play SoB :P

[Frosty the Pyro]

Its not legal to change the bases. Models must be mounted on the same sized bases they are shiped with. Any change in bases constitutes a "oponents permision only" unit.

[MadCowCrazy]

I have the Assault on Black Reach rule book and Ive read through it 3 times, but that doesnt mean I remember everything. I take it when reading the rules my mind tries to make it clear how things work by simplifying things.

 

No, Im not bitter, Im a noob.

Im trying to learn as much as I can as fast as I can which can be a bit overwhelming. I just started 2 months ago, Ive collected 3000 points of sisters and DH so far. Learning all the rules is confusing because allot dont work anymore, some work differently from everyone elses, some are superior to everyone elses and so fourth.

 

One thing I really confused about is converted models using larger bases. The Inquisitor can have allot of henchmen, in the codex they show a picture of a warrior henchman thats been made from sentinel legs and some such standing on a monster base I think. How legal is this? Does it come down to what your opponent thinks? For me I see larges bases are a huge disadvantage because of blast weapons. I would however like to use terminator bases for my gun servitors because the normal ones are way too small.

Read somewhere on this forum about a guy thinking about using Ogryn as henchmen, that idea seems pretty cool. Take the Punisher cannon from the new demolisher kit and you got a serious sam looking Ogryn with a big azz minigun :tu:

[MadCowCrazy]

Its not legal to change the bases. Models must be mounted on the same sized bases they are shiped with. Any change in bases constitutes a "oponents permision only" unit.

 

This is what I thought as well, but some models dont come with bases because there is no official model for them. How do you solve a problem like this?

[Frosty the Pyro]

Its not legal to change the bases. Models must be mounted on the same sized bases they are shiped with. Any change in bases constitutes a "oponents permision only" unit.

 

This is what I thought as well, but some models dont come with bases because there is no official model for them. How do you solve a problem like this?

Ya wing it, rule of thumb infantry are on a 25, big infantry (such as terminators, ogrin, obliterators) get the next one up, 40 i think. Bikes/ calvery get those long bases, though bikes often get by without any base. Walkers and MC get monster bases. non walker vehicles dont have bases. Long as your not being silly with it most folk dont mind a little discrpency.

 

The Inquisitor can have allot of henchmen, in the codex they show a picture of a warrior henchman thats been made from sentinel legs and some such standing on a monster base I think. How legal is this?

 

Officialy, not very, but again most people wont care, but if they do its entirely within their rights to say no dice. The most someones going to do if you modeled something with a larger base (cus it looks cooler or whatnot) is make you switch out with a regular sized model when measuring something were it may matter. Tournament may be more strict, I dont play tournaments myself but my understanding is they vary a bit, and its always prudent to ask the organizer.

 

As far as advantage/disadvantage of larger or smaller bases. Well larger bases can get base contact with more models, which makes it easier to multi assualt, and can increase the distance you can charge out of a vehicle by a little. Also its harder go get multiple large bases under a blast template. Smaller bases can fit though smaller gaps for movement, and its easier to scatter off them, and can be easier to hide out of LOS.

 

++ Mind the language Frosty ++

[Morticon]

Its not legal to change the bases. Models must be mounted on the same sized bases they are shiped with. Any change in bases constitutes a "oponents permision only" unit.

 

Tiny point of contention here. Not legal and opponents consent are a bit different. Needing opponents consent does not make it illegal.

[ShinyRhino]

That's pretty brutal for someone who's supposed to be teaching the game. Sounds like your opponent was taking the tournament as an excuse to hammer on inexperienced players.

 

As has already been said, he was correct on the rules for vehicle cover saves. However, it's a HUGE misconception point at many places. In the Fourth Edition ruleset, vehicles got cover for being behind a "tree stand", as the trees were implied, no explicit. Our our shop, some players still play that way, while others do not. It's hotly contested, because the rulebook allows you to move trees on a tree stand out of the way for infantry in area terrain! If you move all three trees in a tree stand out of the way for that mob of Grotz to fit, you just ruined TLOS for all the vehicles behind it.

But that probably just confuses you, so always play it that you have to have 50% of the vehicle's hull obscured from the point of view of the firing model for cover. It's easier that way, honestly.

 

Tournaments are a tough place to learn the game, so do your best and just enjoy the fact that you get a bunch of games in on one day. You'll find that you'll learn VERY fast.

Your tournament scene sounds a little bit messed up, though. At normal tourneys, boards and terrain are set up by the ORGANIZERS, not the players. No board can be rearranged after the staff set it up. Friendly games allow the two players to do the alternating terrain placement thing, but there's always a phase in which the players made final modifications of the board to make it even. Your "teacher" should have known that.

As for someone else telling you what your army list can be...rubbish. The whole point of a game is to play with the models you want to! Did someone proofcheck every single player's list and tell them what they can and cannot bring to the tournament? I'd have some serious, mature discussion with the turnament organizer or shop owner about this policy. They're only hurting themselves by editing their patrons' army lists. What incentive do you have to buy from that shop if you can't use most of the models you buy?

 

Lastly, were these three "experienced teachers" eligible to win prizes at said tourney? Please say they weren't.