WH and DH codex problems, cheesy tactics

[MadCowCrazy]

Reading through the codexes I found a fiew things that are a bit confusing to me.

1. ANSWERED: I read the text wrong not noticing the " after Assault 12" eventhough I wrote it in my question, silly me

Deamonhost psychic power Timeshift. The Deamonhost can move 12" and assault 12", and doubles the number of attacks it can make (before modifiers).

I get the move and assault 12" but the doubles the number of attacks Im unsure about. Its normal attacks are D6, so how do you double that? Do you use 2D6 or D6*2? So if I understand this power correctly a Deamonhost can get up to 25 (12+6+6+1) attacks in 1 assault? If you are allready locked in assault at your turn and if u get this power, does that mean you get 12+(2D6 or D6*2) in your assault phase as well as in the opponents assault phase? The rules say "until the beginning of its next turn", with this they mean its next movement pretty much right?

 

2.ANSWERED: Soulless and Laud Hailer stack for a Ld6 tankshock.

Culexus Soulless: Any unit (friend or foe) with a model within 12" of the culexus counts as having Ld7, unless it would normally be less than this.

Ive asked before how it works with the psyhic power Purgatus (-3Ld to IC) and was told it doesnt.

What about Laud Hailers? They reduce Ld by -1 when tank shocking, how does this work with soulless? Lets say a unit has Ld10, it becomes Ld7 because of the culexus but does it become Ld6 with Laud Hailers when tank shocking?

 

3.ANSWERED: Penitent can still attack after both CC weapons are destroyed but does so at S5, another wpn destroyed = immobilised like it says in the BRB

Penitent Engines Weapons: 2Dred CCW. The first WD result reduces the engines attacks by 1 (to a minimum of 1) and turns hw flamer into a flamer. Second reduces A but another -1, reduces models S to 5 and destroys the flamer.

What about wpn destroyed results after this? It does not say it loses a CC weapon, just that it reduces the attacks by -2 if both are destroyed. So does this mean a Penitent can still attack if both weapons have been destroyed?

 

4.ANSWERED: In assault you move 6" into contact with as many models as you can, not more than 6" which was what was done to me

Assault, All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the movement phase, except they may be withing 1" of enemy models.

Ive gotten a bit confused about assaulting movements. When I played my first game of 40k last week vs a tyranid player and he assaulted me he got to move all of his models into contact with mine, basically surrounding my units. In order to do this some of his assaulting units moved more than 8-10" as my units were spread out in a long line and his genestealers attacked from the side.

I thought when moving assaulting models you could only move then 6" when you move them to attack. Maby Im confusing it with the assault move itself which is 6".

Lets say I have 20 Battle Sisters in a big line with 2" in between them. This would create a line 60" long, now 50 conscripts assault me from the very side. Can he basically move the conscripts 60" all around my models because he can pile them all up next to eachother in unit coherency or can he only move them 6"?

I know when I do my pile in after he has done his assault move I can only move 6" with each model.

 

5. ANSWERED: The Book of St Lucius can be turned on and off for any unit within 6" of the wearer as you see fit

I was over at DakkaDakka reading up on some WH strategy and came across this : http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Stelek%2..._Sisters_and_IG

Basically its a really cheesy tactic that seems more like abusing the rules than anything else. Allso wouldnt the marines consolidate into your sisters?

Anyways, an interesting consept came up when reading it.

Basically he has some Battle Sisters next to some IG, the sisters have the book of st lucius which may give every unit withing 6" the wearers unmodified Ld for morale and pinning (9 in this case from the VSS).

It basically says that you use the book to give the IG Ld9 no matter how many losses u get in your assault which should let them stay, in his turn all he can do is pretty much continue the assault on the IG but this time you can "turn off" the BoSL so they use their own LD and probobly flee.

Are you really allowed to choose which units to use the BoSL on? The codex entry says "Any friendly unit with a model withing 6" MAY use the bearers unmodified Ld for morale and pinning.

Does the MAY mean its not forced to do this?

I can see this being used allot if you want to try and save your sisters if they are assaulted. Basically not using the BoSL to get the -Ld from losing combat to try and break away, you do risk getting a sweeping advance but if more than your sisters are in CC then you dont risk this. The next turn just try and give your Sisters fearless act of faith to regroup.

 

Anyways the whole tactic explained below seems really cheesy and is it really legal to do this? It does seem rulebraking and unsportsmanlike to do. Then again I do understand why you would want to use a tactic like this as WH because from what I understand our CC units arnt that good. Seraphim being weaker than all other assault units in the game. The arco, repentia and penitent engine being unreliable and too expensive.

 

I can see a 50% pointcost drop on allot of WH units in the next codex, either that or an increase in wargear options or other.

 

Controlling the Assault

 

So, you fire your Sisters (and whatever else) at the Marines. Sure, if you get lucky and get them down to a three guys or less you might as well rapid fire; but Marines sometimes do not die.

 

Instead of allowing them to assault (+1 attack) or rapid fire you again (hit on 3+, wound on 3+, and bad saves if any on your guard)...you will assault THEM.

 

Normally this means you will lose combat, and run away.

Get 'em

 

You assault, they counter-attack.

 

marine: :marine: :marine: :marine: :marine: :marine: :marine:

guardsman: :guardsman: :guardsman: :guardsman: :guardsman: :guardsman:

 

guardsman:

guardsman:

 

Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister:

 

lascannon team:

 

 

Remember to keep the Lascannon team centered behind the Sisters. That'll come up later.

 

Now you've assaulted. Odds are you'll do some damage, but you'll lose combat.

 

Let's say you lose by 4. Even with a re-roll and a HSO around (the HSO usually gets shot dead, him and his standard bearer but whatever) that's still LD5.

 

That means you will run away. Tarpitting = fail.

 

So to succeed, you want your Sisters unit to turn on the Book of St. Lucius. LD9 (or 10 with a Canoness) unmodified.

 

That means you'll probably stay.

 

Then it's HIS turn, and all he can do is fire through the CC (but not Flamers, something Guard are vulnerable to) or join it.

 

But he knows on HIS turn, not only will he chop up what's left of the squad but you'll turn the book off so the guard run away...so you can fire at him again.

 

Most armies can't take multiple consecutive turns of fire from a IG gunline at point blank range. K, just be serious about that fact.

 

Now to the game-breaking, rule using abusive game play everyone loves.

 

Rattling the Drain

 

Since GW did not listen to my comments on this cheesy tactic, I will show it to the Internets and they can have fun abusing it.

 

So, what IS rattling the drain? Well, you know how the chain goes down the bathtub but the plug won't?

 

The Lascannon team is the plug, and the Sisters are the bathtub.

 

Remember how I said to keep that Lascannon team centered behind the Sisters.

 

This is your backup plan, in case you roll double 1's.

 

Odds are between your charge in, and his assault phase...the guard are down to 1 or 2 guys.

 

That's normal. It also works in your favor.

 

See, that fat Lascannon base won't fit between the Sisters in front of it.

 

Now read the rules, what happens when you can't move into contact (and you cannot since the Sisters aren't involved in this combat)?

 

Here's how it looks:

 

:marine: :marine: :marine: :marine:

 

Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister: :Sister:

 

:lascannon team:

 

That's right, combat ends.

 

Hey look ma, I just rattled the drain!

 

New Questions

6.ANSWERED: The local "pro" was wrong again, you dont have to say which units FP you use and even if you did you cant lose FP from a unit who has not used theirs yet

When I was playing my first and second game with my sisters the "local pro" said that when I use AoF I have to nominate which units faith point I use. Lets say I have 1 canoness and 1VSS, the HQ has 2 Faithpoints and the VSS has 1. I want to use an AoF with my canoness but has to declare if I use 1 of her FP or the VSSs FP. What I think hes trying to get at is if he can kill a faithful unit before it uses its FP I cant use those FP anymore but still get what it contributed back from martyrdom. So lets say I have 5 FP like I do with my list, on his turn 1 he shoots and kills my Canoness, she dies losing me 2 FP but I get 2 back from Martyrdom keeping my FP at 5.

The way I thought it worked in the above scenario is that if he kills my Canoness I simply just get the 2 FP she was contributing bringing my FP to 7.

Is he wrong (like he has been with all other WH rules he has tried to enforce upon me) or is there really such a silly rule? I have read the codex 3 times and dont remember seeing it anywhere. I just read the AoF pg 18 and I cant see anything like this mentioned anywhere. Is this an old rule he is remembering or what?

 

7. When I played my first game vs the tyranids and was assaulted by genestealers I was desperatly trying to give them any advantage I could. Maby it was not the genestealers but I tried to give myself The Passion which would have brought my Initiative up to 5 which was the same as the tyranids attacking me, this would have allowed me to strike at the same time he did giving me a better chanse to survive. I had 6 sisters left in the squad and so had to roll 2D6 and get over 6, which I failed. I then looked at the AoF list and tried to give them Hand of the Emperor which gives +2S but I1. 2D6 and get under 6 which I allso failed.

Now that Ive been reading up on the AoF rules allot more I noticed "May not be used in the same phase as Hand of the Emperor" rule on The Passion, how does it work if you fail to roll any of the 2? Hand of the Emperor does not say it cant be used together with T Passion, (it would give no benefit at all though since they dont work together anyways), so could you in practise use The Passion first and then Hand of the Emperor on the same unit? It would become HotE overriding TPassion but still.

So how does failed AoF work here, when you fail an AoF have you actually used the Faith and failed or have you simply just failed the AoF test? It costs you 1 FP either way.

If you read it RAW then I get the impression I could first try TPassion and if that failed I can try HotE but not the other way around. If I would try HotE first and fail I would not be allowed to try TPassion because it "may not be used in the same phase as HotE"

 

8.ANSWERED: You can burn as many different groups as you can hit, but you have to try and hit as many of the units as possible in the on you nominate to attack

Template Weapons. I read pg 29 and pg 85 in the BRB about template weapons but did not find the answer to my question.

When firing a template weapon like a flamer, what happens if you hit 1 unit and then another (or more) different unit(s) behind it?

How does it work if I want to shoot trough the 1st unit, the 2nd unit would get +4 cover saves from bolters and the like but none from the flamers? or cant fire at the 2nd at all?

 

9. Was reading some 4ed tactica which is still somewhat usable when I noticed :

Extras

Zealots: Ok, these should probably go in Troops, but since they're not in the codex, I'm putting them here. 20 of these with Eviscerator Fanatics and a Priest are scary. Fragile, but scary. Demagogues and Exterminators are not required and just bump up the point cost of the unit.

This does sound allot like Repentia but repentia are mentioned above in the elite section so Zealots are something else. This a unit that does no longer excist that you could induct?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tactica:...le_-_Mechanized

[GTang]

::Stabs::

 

1. I read it as saying d6*2, not 2d6. The maximum number of attacks looks like 13 to me, barring other equipment. 6*2 + 1 (for charging). No pair of one-handed weapons. It does last until the player's next turn, so would still be good for any assault they're locked into.

 

2. It works fine with both Purgatus and Laud Hailers. Soulless doesn't say it's an unmodifiable LD 7. It's a stat change to LD 7 for models affected by the power.

 

3. Weapon destroyed results after that are the same as for walkers that have no weapons left (immobilized). The engine only has 2 arms with weapons on it, even if what happens when it loses each of them is non-standard.

 

4. It's only 6". Or possibly less than 6", when there's difficult terrain. Only models that can get close enough after the counterassault are counted in the ensuing combat.

 

5. That's generally how the Book of St. Lucius works, yes. Inducted IG units can use it and it is optional. I'll add that that particular tactic isn't such a game-winning one, but by the rules it's fine.

[MadCowCrazy]

Ohhhhhh, now I see what I thought wrong.

The way I read it was move 12" with an assault 12 weapon.

 

You can move 12" and assault 12". I did not see the " after assault 12".

 

Now I feel dumb.

 

So the attacks are D6*2, seems simple enough.

 

 

Hmm? About Purgatus, LH and Soulless.

 

So if I had a culexus within 12" an IC would get Ld7 from whatever he had, if I then use Purgatus on him he would get Ld 4 and finally if I tank shocked him he would be down to Ld3? This seems like something really powerfull to do, but then again Purgatus only affects IC

[GTang]

So if I had a culexus within 12" an IC would get Ld7 from whatever he had, if I then use Purgatus on him he would get Ld 4 and finally if I tank shocked him he would be down to Ld3? This seems like something really powerfull to do, but then again Purgatus only affects IC

If the starting LD was 10, it'd go to 7 and then -1 from the laud haulers to 6. If it was 9, it'd go to 6 then 5. Purgatus and the Culexus affect the statline at the same time, and both on what the number was originally rather than currently.

 

ICs generally aren't by themselves, though, and could take the higher LD of the unit it's in.

 

While it sounds nice, basically it's like the guard and sisters situation above. There's a whole line of what-ifs that have to happen before this situation could come about, enough so that it's pretty unlikely. People ought to see it coming, and probably will take measures before it gets to this point.

[Legatus]

4. Assaulting models may only move 6". Models that cannot move far enough to get into contact, do not get into contact. The unit that is being assaulted has to make it's reaction move then, though, so it could still come to a contact with that model.

If he assault moved more than 6" with his Genestealers, he cheated. Maybe it was a unit of Hormagaunts? They have an assault move of 12".

 

5. That would only work if there was no base wider gap between the Sister models and the Sister unit would be more than 6" to both sides of the Laser Cannon model. After combat has ended, BOTH sides have to move their models 6" towards the enemy they just fought (rules as assault move). They are allowed to move within 1" of enemy models (but are not allowed to contact models that were not taking part in the combat). If the SoB/IG player had just moved his own IG unit through the Sisters unit to assault the Marines, then now the Marines in turn can move through the Sisters unit to move into contact with the Laser Cannon, as long as they do not move into contact with any of the Sisters.

If the Sisters unit is somehow grouped close together, then the Marines as well as the Laser Cannon model have to try to move 6" around the Sisters in order to make contact. Basically, the Marines are only unable to reach the Sisters if they stand close enough together so that no modles can be moved through their unit and at the same time spread far enough to both sides so that it is more than 12" distance from any of the Marines to the Laser Cannon.

[Hellios]

WH, DH aren't cheesy :blink: just because they require more thought than terminators with TH & SS. Also you've only just scratched the surface of what WH and DH can do :)

[MadCowCrazy]

WH, DH aren't cheesy just because they require more thought than terminators with TH & SS. Also you've only just scratched the surface of what WH and DH can do :P

 

Oh do share your secrets, I want to learn as much as possible. When I played my first game vs the tyranids my one 10 sister squad got butchered by the genestealers that surrounded them, only the VSS survived but she ran. I was told that because it was less than 50% of its origional size it would not be able to regroup. Now when I read the cheese about I realised I could have used fearless faith to make her turn and contest an objective. I won through annihilation but it came down to getting EXACTLY enough hits to kill his second genestealer group.

 

Yes, it was genestealers that surrounded my sisters by moving more than 6". He had some shooting gaunts on the other side of the table but those ate flame templates.

 

I really like how many flame templates I can bring on the field, its quite insane really ^_^

 

 

Added some new questions to the top.

[Morticon]

New Questions

6. When I was playing my first and second game with my sisters the "local pro" said that when I use AoF I have to nominate which units faith point I use. Lets say I have 1 canoness and 1VSS, the HQ has 2 Faithpoints and the VSS has 1. I want to use an AoF with my canoness but has to declare if I use 1 of her FP or the VSSs FP. What I think hes trying to get at is if he can kill a faithful unit before it uses its FP I cant use those FP anymore but still get what it contributed back from martyrdom. So lets say I have 5 FP like I do with my list, on his turn 1 he shoots and kills my Canoness, she dies losing me 2 FP but I get 2 back from Martyrdom keeping my FP at 5.

The way I thought it worked in the above scenario is that if he kills my Canoness I simply just get the 2 FP she was contributing bringing my FP to 7.

Is he wrong (like he has been with all other WH rules he has tried to enforce upon me) or is there really such a silly rule? I have read the codex 3 times and dont remember seeing it anywhere. I just read the AoF pg 18 and I cant see anything like this mentioned anywhere. Is this an old rule he is remembering or what?

 

7. When I played my first game vs the tyranids and was assaulted by genestealers I was desperatly trying to give them any advantage I could. Maby it was not the genestealers but I tried to give myself The Passion which would have brought my Initiative up to 5 which was the same as the tyranids attacking me, this would have allowed me to strike at the same time he did giving me a better chanse to survive. I had 6 sisters left in the squad and so had to roll 2D6 and get over 6, which I failed. I then looked at the AoF list and tried to give them Hand of the Emperor which gives +2S but I1. 2D6 and get under 6 which I allso failed.

Now that Ive been reading up on the AoF rules allot more I noticed "May not be used in the same phase as Hand of the Emperor" rule on The Passion, how does it work if you fail to roll any of the 2? Hand of the Emperor does not say it cant be used together with T Passion, (it would give no benefit at all though since they dont work together anyways), so could you in practise use The Passion first and then Hand of the Emperor on the same unit? It would become HotE overriding TPassion but still.

So how does failed AoF work here, when you fail an AoF have you actually used the Faith and failed or have you simply just failed the AoF test? It costs you 1 FP either way.

If you read it RAW then I get the impression I could first try TPassion and if that failed I can try HotE but not the other way around. If I would try HotE first and fail I would not be allowed to try TPassion because it "may not be used in the same phase as HotE"

 

8. Template Weapons. I read pg 29 and pg 85 in the BRB about template weapons but did not find the answer to my question.

When firing a template weapon like a flamer, what happens if you hit 1 unit and then another (or more) different unit(s) behind it?

How does it work if I want to shoot trough the 1st unit, the 2nd unit would get +4 cover saves from bolters and the like but none from the flamers? or cant fire at the 2nd at all?

 

9. Was reading some 4ed tactica which is still somewhat usable when I noticed :

Extras

Zealots: Ok, these should probably go in Troops, but since they're not in the codex, I'm putting them here. 20 of these with Eviscerator Fanatics and a Priest are scary. Fragile, but scary. Demagogues and Exterminators are not required and just bump up the point cost of the unit.

This does sound allot like Repentia but repentia are mentioned above in the elite section so Zealots are something else. This a unit that does no longer excist that you could induct?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tactica:...le_-_Mechanized

 

 

Question 6 is nonsense. Theres nothing to suggest that at all. In addition faithful units follow the martyr rule and you get those points back!

 

Question 7 - not sure at the moment- id need to see the wording of faith and I dont have my WH codex on me at the mo ><;.

 

Question 8 - you pick your primary target. Once that is done you must cover as many models from that unit as possible. With that done, yes, you can now shoot your bolters too- and yes they will get cover saves from the squad in front of them, but none from the flamer.

 

Question 9 - not sure about this. I think it was an add on rule if im not mistaken. No longer valid I think!

[GTang]

6. All Faith Points are in one pool of points. However, only Faithful units have access to Acts of Faith and give you a faith point. While some units are always faithful while they're alive (such as Celestians and Seraphim), some units become Faithful by the presence of a Veteran Superior model (such as regular Troops or Retributors). If the Veteran Superior dies, that unit will not be able to use Acts of Faith beyond the phase which the model was killed unless an IC like the Canoness joins it to make it Faithful again.

 

7. Faith points are spent for the attempt, not for the success. I'd read it as mutually exclusive Acts of Faith, as making or failing the Test is part of the Act. You can't try one if you're trying the other for the same unit, in the same phase.

 

8. No take backs if you miss the 2nd unit entirely, by the way. You'd declared the shot, measured and found that they're out of range. In that case, nothing in the first unit could be covered by the flame template. Also, as the primary target, the rule that says you have to cover the maximum number of models applies to the 2nd unit's models. Any of the 1st units models covered, while nice, don't qualify in the count that'll show where the flame template ought to go - this will make a difference in some situations.

 

9. It was from a Chapter Approved in White Dwarf. UK WD 304, iirc. So I guess you can treat is as commonly available as playing with the Forge World supplements - sometimes, but not always.