nurglespuss Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 I'm not convinced... But no worries, its not like it has any major in game effect :P thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2222252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 LOL, i've read pg 93. but it doesn't actually say that the transport becomes a troops unit. Dedicated transport isnt an FOC location either, so what would you count them as? It seems, to me, that counting them as the slot they were purchased for is in most cases the most reasonable and strait forward approach. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2222905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rahl02 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 LOL, i've read pg 93. but it doesn't actually say that the transport becomes a troops unit. Dedicated transport isnt an FOC location either, so what would you count them as? It seems, to me, that counting them as the slot they were purchased for is in most cases the most reasonable and strait forward approach. I'd say in a situation like this you would deploy the squad and the transport together to avoid any issues. The transport is dedicated to that unit and would deploy them together as one "unit". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2222938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 LOL, i've read pg 93. but it doesn't actually say that the transport becomes a troops unit. Dedicated transport isnt an FOC location either, so what would you count them as? It seems, to me, that counting them as the slot they were purchased for is in most cases the most reasonable and strait forward approach. I'd say in a situation like this you would deploy the squad and the transport together to avoid any issues. The transport is dedicated to that unit and would deploy them together as one "unit". Nah, while that makes sense fluff-wise, rules wise a transport capable vehicle that is "dedicated" just has restrictions on what can deploy in it during set up or from reserves... theres nothing saying you have to be inside it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2222951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglespuss Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Right, i've re-read it, and there is nothign to support the idea that a transport is a 'troops unit' its just a 'unit' non-described, and does not count as a 'troops unit' for deployment purposes. We've had a chat in my local gaming group, and thats what we've pinned up (as by RAW - though I dislike its use) this is the only viable option. i.e. there is nothing to support it being a valid 'troops unit' for deployment purposes, it can be deployed without its parent unit, but, it is a 'unit' and nothing more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2223403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderpup Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 seems to me the DoW scenario punishes players for taking dedicated transports. :) That Tyranid player gets to put his 64 Gaunts on the board (2 troops) but since you wolves are too lazy to walk on all-fours, you only get to put your ten out there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2223435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rahl02 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 LOL, i've read pg 93. but it doesn't actually say that the transport becomes a troops unit. Dedicated transport isnt an FOC location either, so what would you count them as? It seems, to me, that counting them as the slot they were purchased for is in most cases the most reasonable and strait forward approach. I'd say in a situation like this you would deploy the squad and the transport together to avoid any issues. The transport is dedicated to that unit and would deploy them together as one "unit". Nah, while that makes sense fluff-wise, rules wise a transport capable vehicle that is "dedicated" just has restrictions on what can deploy in it during set up or from reserves... theres nothing saying you have to be inside it. I wasn't saying inside the transport, just they have to deploy at the same time, and would only count as 1 troop unit in the DOW deployment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2223437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderpup Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 LOL, i've read pg 93. but it doesn't actually say that the transport becomes a troops unit. Dedicated transport isnt an FOC location either, so what would you count them as? It seems, to me, that counting them as the slot they were purchased for is in most cases the most reasonable and strait forward approach. I'd say in a situation like this you would deploy the squad and the transport together to avoid any issues. The transport is dedicated to that unit and would deploy them together as one "unit". Nah, while that makes sense fluff-wise, rules wise a transport capable vehicle that is "dedicated" just has restrictions on what can deploy in it during set up or from reserves... theres nothing saying you have to be inside it. I wasn't saying inside the transport, just they have to deploy at the same time, and would only count as 1 troop unit in the DOW deployment. In the example, the troop unit is deployed in the transport with the HQ, and the transport still takes up the 2nd troop slot. (For DoW deployment) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2223444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglespuss Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Exactly, they both (together) count as 1 troops choice. But, for deployment purposes, they are broken down into 'troops unit' and 'non-defined vehicle unit'. As a player myself, I always deploy the transport/unit at the same time (they can be at different board locations), but for DoW they count as 1 troops choice. In the example, I beleive its displaying that you can deploy 1-2 troops choices, and that the example shows 1 troops (troops unit + transport) and 1 HQ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2223447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderpup Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Exactly, they both (together) count as 1 troops choice. But, for deployment purposes, they are broken down into 'troops unit' and 'non-defined vehicle unit'. As a player myself, I always deploy the transport/unit at the same time (they can be at different board locations), but for DoW they count as 1 troops choice. In the example, I beleive its displaying that you can deploy 1-2 troops choices, and that the example shows 1 troops (troops unit + transport) and 1 HQ it says, "player B then deploys a unit of troops, already embarked into thier dedicated transport (which is his second unit of troops.)" Unfortunately, i read that as the infantry models count as one "troop choice" and thier transport takes up the 2nd choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2223456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Exactly, they both (together) count as 1 troops choice. But, for deployment purposes, they are broken down into 'troops unit' and 'non-defined vehicle unit'. As a player myself, I always deploy the transport/unit at the same time (they can be at different board locations), but for DoW they count as 1 troops choice. In the example, I beleive its displaying that you can deploy 1-2 troops choices, and that the example shows 1 troops (troops unit + transport) and 1 HQ Except it doesnt nurglepuss, it specificly states the transport counts as the second troops unit. If you and yours want to houserule it, thats fine, but that is an official ruling on the subject, as it comes straight from the core rulebook. LOL, i've read pg 93. but it doesn't actually say that the transport becomes a troops unit. Dedicated transport isnt an FOC location either, so what would you count them as? It seems, to me, that counting them as the slot they were purchased for is in most cases the most reasonable and strait forward approach. I'd say in a situation like this you would deploy the squad and the transport together to avoid any issues. The transport is dedicated to that unit and would deploy them together as one "unit". Nah, while that makes sense fluff-wise, rules wise a transport capable vehicle that is "dedicated" just has restrictions on what can deploy in it during set up or from reserves... theres nothing saying you have to be inside it. I wasn't saying inside the transport, just they have to deploy at the same time, and would only count as 1 troop unit in the DOW deployment. They dont have to deploy at the same time, and they would count as both. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2223479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Grey Mage has it right. While its a stupid way to do it, the book is clear player B then deploys a unit of troops, already embarked into thier dedicated transport (which is his second unit of troops.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2223488 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 About the Force Organisation Chart and Dedicated Transports (Rulebook, page 87): "Dedicated transports Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organisation structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for. When this distinction is called for (for example in some missions or deployment types), dedicated transport vehicles count as being from the same force organisation category as the unit they were bought for. For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (Troops) counts as a unit of Troops, but if it was bought for a unit of Veterans (Elites) it counts as Elites." About the deployment of forces and multiple unit choices (Rulebook, page 92): "Multiple Unit Choices Note that occasionally the Codexes allow the player to include several units in his army at the cost of a single force organisation slot (like dedicated transports, etc.). Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects." About dedicated Transports with 'Dawn of War' deployment (Rulebook, page 93): "Example: (...) In his half of the table, player B then deploys a unit of Troops, already embarked into their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of Troops)." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2223500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Thanks Legatus! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2223502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 About the Force Organisation Chart and Dedicated Transports (Rulebook, page 87): "Dedicated transports Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organisation structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for. When this distinction is called for (for example in some missions or deployment types), dedicated transport vehicles count as being from the same force organisation category as the unit they were bought for. For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (Troops) counts as a unit of Troops, but if it was bought for a unit of Veterans (Elites) it counts as Elites." Thank you Legatus, Ive been looking for this quote for over a week. *bows* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2223505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglespuss Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Post removed: Self moderated for annoyance at badly designed rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2223593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 these units operate and count as separate units in all respects this to me is far too vague, and only applies to on the table conduct. How is that vague? And how is deployment not a part of "on the table conduct"? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2223604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 lol@this even being an ongoing debate. Are we done now? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2223696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Why, are you payin for the bandwidth? ;). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2223703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 The longer things like this stay open, the more likely it is that some impressionable young soul might wander in and be swayed over to the idea that there is such a thing as a vehicle in the FOC that is just a 'unit' and not a Troops, HQ, Elites, FA or HS choice. Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2223713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I told you not to argue the definition of "is" ... I quoted this yesterday "their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of Troops)" (emphasis added). I was at work reading this (unable to post) and ready to pull my hair out haha Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2223799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglespuss Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 @ Grey Mage: Why comment on a post AFTER I removed it? LOL, thats continuing the debate unnessecarily! The rule is daft, plain and simple. @ Samanagol: Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity!: Stupidity? really? LOL I've been at this long enough to know a daft rule when I see one, the stupidity is all the designers for creatins such a stupid rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2224074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 @ Grey Mage: Why comment on a post AFTER I removed it? LOL, thats continuing the debate unnessecarily! *Spreads hands* Sorry, it was still there when I hit reply- youll note our time signatures for your edit and my reply are on the same minute... I came back to the thread the next day to find it removed. No offense was intended. Im willing to continue the discussion with anyone else who is interested, and I disagree on it being a daft rule. But thats personal opinion, and your as entitled to yours as I am to mine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187775-couple-of-rules-questions/page/2/#findComment-2224084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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