stuckinbermuda Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Sorry is this has been answered before, just getting back into playing and using 5th edition In last nights game I managed to catch a Farseer in a wave serpent who was buzzing around casting doom on my squad holding an objective. I managed to assault the wave serpent with an assault squad with a powerfist. At first I attempted to block the disembarkation point at the rear of the vehicle so the farseer could not escape and looked up the rules and saw that if he could not get out that way he could do an emergency escape and exit anywhere within 2" of the vehicle, if I forced him to exit with a vehicle destroyed result. So instead I though I could surround the vehicle with my assault squad and make it so he would have to pass within 1" of any of my marines to get out, my opponent however said that since my marines were assaulting the vehicle they were in base to base with it and he could deploy just 1" past my marines. This didn't make much fluff sense to me since the farseer would have to (i) get out of the vehicle through an unorthodox means making him vulnerable upon exit and (ii) he would have to pass between marines, so within 1", to get to a point further out from them but still within 2" of the hull (he was trying to deploy 2" off one of the points at the front of the vehicle. I used the argument that he would be making essentially a forced fallback move out of the vehicle as he passed within 1" between my marines and to use a D&D phrase, I would get an attack of opportunity as he went past. In the end it didn't play out but would like to know if this is still a valid tactic. The Ork and Tyranid players were very interested in the answer as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 If you surrounded the vehicle and there was no where he could get out without being within an inch of one of your guys, he would be unable to do an emergency disembark and would die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz1858 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Yeh i agree with JamesI. Says in the rulebook pretty clearly that 1) he cant move within 1" of an enemy model so hos going 1"behind you or over you or however he imagined it wouldnt work ansd 2) it says in the rules if there is nowehere for him to go i.e. surrounded vehicle he is kaput! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 If there is a spot that is farther than 1 inch from your marines, and less than 2 inches from the vehicle than he is golden. Your argument of forced fall back is null, because thats not what it is. And the unit never has to move, he simply disembarks at that distance. If your worrying about fluff, its an eldar, they are an acrobatic people he could have jumped. It was a farseer, he could have looked in the future and seen just the openeing to dart between your dudes. Maybe eldar actualy beleive in safety and included an ejector seat. There are lots of things you can do to explain it, but thats what would happen. He is only destroyed if there are no legal spots to disembark to, as you said there was a legal spot, then he is not destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 If you totally surround the vehicle he would have been stuck inside it. If there was an opening where he could get out and be an inch from your guys, then he could exit. Regardless, at that point he would then have to take a pinning check. One might argue (in the lack of any real written rules) he could exit on top of the vehicle and stand on top of it. Wrecks are difficult and dangerous terrain, so exiting to the roof (if it was allowed) would have also caused a dangerous terrain test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 There are no rules for disembarking ontop of a transport so the argument holds no water. If he cannot deploy within 2" of the vehicle without being within 1" of the assault troops then he dies.. simples. If you roll a explodes result then the vehicle is removed and the farseer is positioned in its place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 As GC08 said, it's 2" or nothing. However, after making some metric conversions (for those moments that really matter :D), I've found that a standard 25mm infantry base is 0.98 inches long. This means that, technically, even if a unit were to surround a vehicle in a single line, the farseer could emergency disembark anyway, 1.97-1.99 inches away. You'd basically need to surround the vehicle with two lines of 25mm based infantry to prevent emergency disembarkation. Moral of the story is, unless you're Orks or a massive IG combined infantry squad, your opponent will always get to Emergency Disembark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonoshi Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Recently in my area, there has been an argument on the topic of being able to use Emergency Disembarkation during a Destroyed - Wrecked result. Scenario: A Rhino is assaulted by a squad along all of its Access Points, but the Front Hull isn't blocked. The attacks cause a Wrecked result (no explosion) and the Assaulting player declares the troops in the Rhino die immediately. I ask why they can not Emergency Disembark and He explains the Emergency Disembark can only be used on your turn due to the way its worded in the rulebook. After reading this thread, I'm rather confused. Is blocking the Access Points a possible rule from previous editions? I try to purposely forget earlier editions so there is less confusion. Only being able to Emergency Disembark on you turn would be kind of silly. Our gaming group is kind of split on this topic and some third party discussion would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 im not up on the rules as such, but im sure emergency disembark covers the "blocked escape points". It can be used regardless of whos turn it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 As GC08 said, it's 2" or nothing. However, after making some metric conversions (for those moments that really matter ;)), I've found that a standard 25mm infantry base is 0.98 inches long. This means that, technically, even if a unit were to surround a vehicle in a single line, the farseer could emergency disembark anyway, 1.97-1.99 inches away. You'd basically need to surround the vehicle with two lines of 25mm based infantry to prevent emergency disembarkation. Moral of the story is, unless you're Orks or a massive IG combined infantry squad, your opponent will always get to Emergency Disembark. My thoughts exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckinbermuda Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 Thanks for the constructive answers people :P The Ork, Tyranid and IG players in my group will be happy with the news so us SM players will be watching for it. I still think it is kinda lame, at least it will be harder for squads to survive an emergency disembark and I'm going to try and use this at some point in the future just to see it happen, I do remember using it in I think 3rd ed since that is what I played the most of. I still like that idea from a fluff perspective that infantry should be able to cover all the hatches and kill the crew of a vehicle, throwing a grenade in a hatch or whatever. Perhaps it would be a good veteran upgrade, would be very fluffy for many units. I'll see if I can get it added to the list for our next campaign, I'd love to have it on a tank hunting assault squad :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadCowCrazy Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Best example I can think of would be the necron monolith thing the guys at Beasts of War posted on Youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcQ8xR92fVQ It explains a similar event where you block units from disembarking from a monolith basically killing his entire army at the start of round 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 exit blocking is no longer valid. Emergency disembarkation as described on BRB P.67 is another way of disembarking (aside from using the exits) that has a penalty associated with it. it is valid at any time, as a wrecked result or in the owning player's movement phase. the rules references to the movement phase have to do with the fact that "disembarkation" is generally done at this time. all forms of disembarking are described there, so the movement phase references may seem restrictive. they are not. if they were, then all vehicle destroyed results that occur outside of the owning player's movement phase, the vast majority, would destroy embarked units as disembarkation would be illegal. this is silly. likely you have a play group where the 4th ed door-blocking paradigm remains ingrained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadCowCrazy Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 What if you surround say a rhino with 10 models in it with 20 orcs so it is completly surrounded. If it explodes or is wrecked there is no way 10 models can fit in the gap it left without being withing 1" of the surrounding models. Do the ones that end up within 1" die or what happens? Or do they simply just jump over the surrounding orcs and end up 1" from them (basically jumping 2"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Mnn - its an interesting point that doesnt sit so well with me. Rules wise, it seems perfectly legitimate to now disembark 2" away from your surrounded vehicle and still be over 1" away from the enemy. Its one of those "right by RAW" instances that I hope no one ever pulls on me ><; (largely cause ill have no right to say otherwise). Cause seriously .02 of an inch is such a bollocks figure to argue over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Like I said, such minute details are for the moments that really matter (say, in 'ard boyz or something). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Weird thing is it doesnt say anything in the rule book about a unit getting destroyed if it cant disembark.. or at least i cant find it. there is the reference about being trapped whilst falling back, but that doesnt cover disembarking. ive always accepted this as the rules, but cant find it.. anyone help please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 What if you surround say a rhino with 10 models in it with 20 orcs so it is completly surrounded. If it explodes or is wrecked there is no way 10 models can fit in the gap it left without being withing 1" of the surrounding models. Do the ones that end up within 1" die or what happens? Or do they simply just jump over the surrounding orcs and end up 1" from them (basically jumping 2"). If there is no where they can be without being within 1 inch of the orks, they die. If the vehicles Explodes, the models inside go into the crater left by the explosion, so it is more likely some could fit without being within 1 inch of the orks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freakiq Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 As GC08 said, it's 2" or nothing. However, after making some metric conversions (for those moments that really matter :D), I've found that a standard 25mm infantry base is 0.98 inches long. This means that, technically, even if a unit were to surround a vehicle in a single line, the farseer could emergency disembark anyway, 1.97-1.99 inches away. You'd basically need to surround the vehicle with two lines of 25mm based infantry to prevent emergency disembarkation. Moral of the story is, unless you're Orks or a massive IG combined infantry squad, your opponent will always get to Emergency Disembark. That's assuming the unit stands in base contact with the vehicle. If they were to surround the vehicle while standing 1/2" away from it there's no way out for the Farseer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 That's assuming the unit stands in base contact with the vehicle. If they were to surround the vehicle while standing 1/2" away from it there's no way out for the Farseer. The best part is, if they were doing that the vehicle couldn't possibly be destroyed; they aren't in BTB contact with it to attack it. Now sure if they shot it then you're right and poof, but I was illustrating a close combat scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronWinds Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 This is just wronge... and I tested it. Its not even a case where you would get in ruler arguments, you can obviously get a mini 2" out and still be over 1" from an enemy. If there is no where they can be without being within 1 inch of the orks, they die. If the vehicles Explodes, the models inside go into the crater left by the explosion, so it is more likely some could fit without being within 1 inch of the orks. If they are touching on both sides... doubtful. 1" on each side, plus the 1" of your base. You would need 3" of space to deploy 1 mini. A rhino is just under 3" wide. With a land raider or other larger vehicle you could do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 This is just wronge... and I tested it. Its not even a case where you would get in ruler arguments, you can obviously get a mini 2" out and still be over 1" from an enemy. If there is no where they can be without being within 1 inch of the orks, they die. If the vehicles Explodes, the models inside go into the crater left by the explosion, so it is more likely some could fit without being within 1 inch of the orks. If they are touching on both sides... doubtful. 1" on each side, plus the 1" of your base. You would need 3" of space to deploy 1 mini. A rhino is just under 3" wide. With a land raider or other larger vehicle you could do it. With the rhino you have to take into acount all directions, not just the minimum distance (width), if you go a little to the right (or left) you can get some more space due to angles. Example OO O<--- within 1" of enemies OO OO .O <---farther than the above OO I Dont know if thats enouph to get the extra you need from a under 3" wide rhino or not, but if you also count that the enemies will likely be spread some to block the 2" disembark they will need alot of models to work it. O..O ..O <--still yet farther O..O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 As GC08 said, it's 2" or nothing. However, after making some metric conversions (for those moments that really matter :)), I've found that a standard 25mm infantry base is 0.98 inches long. This means that, technically, even if a unit were to surround a vehicle in a single line, the farseer could emergency disembark anyway, 1.97-1.99 inches away. You'd basically need to surround the vehicle with two lines of 25mm based infantry to prevent emergency disembarkation. Moral of the story is, unless you're Orks or a massive IG combined infantry squad, your opponent will always get to Emergency Disembark. why? Put them half an inch away from the vehicle, they then cover an inch.... leaving only half an inch for the enemy to deploy in, all of wich is within 1" of you. They can only do what your talking about if your silly enough to be in BTB with everything. Heck, most of the time youd do this would be in shooting- where you have to be 1" away, thus blocking all the area aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Grey mage makes sense, not all models have to be in B2B to attack, just within 2" of a model that is. If you get placement right you can deny your opponent the ability to disembark.. remembering he has to keep unit cohesion aswell! BTW did anyone manage to find the rule that shows units unable to disembark from a destroyed vehicle are killed? i havent been able to find it yet??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Grey mage makes sense, not all models have to be in B2B to attack, just within 2" of a model that is.If you get placement right you can deny your opponent the ability to disembark.. remembering he has to keep unit cohesion aswell! BTW did anyone manage to find the rule that shows units unable to disembark from a destroyed vehicle are killed? i havent been able to find it yet??? Pg 67 "Destroyed-Wrecked" On a side note, the rules for destroyed explodes say that after the unit is placed were the vehicle was, which means its not a "disembark" move, and thus will not be destroyed, even if within 1" of an enemy. Edit: Yes it is true they dont have to be in BtB, but they do have to TRY to get to base to base before they are allowed to settle for only being within 2" So unless only one of your squad was in range, and yet the whole squad would be able to get close enouph to the vehicle, including surounding the other side. I dont think thats going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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