Bloodthirster Under-priced?

[donates]

well,

 

i have been looking at the bloodthirster and doing some comparing and i believe at 250pts it is under-priced, my reasons are:

 

- 4+ inv save, 3+ Norm save, now this make this bloodthirster incredibly durable

- No instant-death meaning the only way you can take this beast down is by going through those saves

- Deamonic flight, meaning it can chase down enemy's damn quick

- Anti-tank, this beast can take down most tanks with ease

- WS10 meaning WS4 and under hit on 5+'s just another defence for him in cc

- T6 makes him pretty damn hard to wound

- For an extra 20pts , unholy might makes this thing take down 90% of space marine's including even the toughest of them with insant death

 

this is not all the things he can do but is a fair list indeeed now in my opinion this thing is around 50pts over-priced for what he can do, ( i ain't complaining though :lol: )

 

i would like to hear your opinions on this topic, all are welcome.

[Grey Mage]

Deep Striking means I should get a turn of shooting off on you before you hit my lines, and that if hes the biggest threat out there it just means less firepower hitting your other units- likely Ill take three wounds off him, hurt a bit in CC, and then kill him with a "hidden" powerfist.

 

With only 5 attacks, 6 on the charge hes got a 50/50 of killng a Tac squad on the charge, sorta. If you get real luck you might kill all six, and make him lose a probable two more on no retreat wounds or fall back and shoot you.

 

I mean it costs as much as a Landraider for a unit that cant be hidden- it better be worth its points!

[donates]

That is valid point you have, but in saying that, a "hidden powerfist" needs a touch of luck to even hit

 

but you are right on it not being able to be hidden, it can be, but would need a fair size bit of terrain

[Kalrik]

Realistically, everything in the Daemon List is underpriced. -- Cept possibly Horrors.

 

Other armies would drool to get the bloodletter's stats on a basic troop.

 

But the problem is that pesky Deepstrike, Daemons is an assault army that cannot assault.

 

If you were playing a spearhead game and didn't HAVE to deepstrike that bloodthirster and he could first turn charge, THEN he could cost more, but he HAS to deepstrike, and to do so, he cannot assault.

 

Its why all our stuff is so dirt cheap.

[minigun762]

Plus the 3+ armor save is slightly decieving since the majority of heavy weapons you're going to fire at him will pass through it (Plasma, Missiles, Lascannons etc). It just provides some added protection from him being dakka'd down with Heavy Bolters and the like. Look at it this way, the damn LoC has a 3+ Inv save as standard.

 

The 'Thirster is a great buy but just like a Land Raider he's a huge target for your army and its entirely possible to kill him in 1 round of firepower (with some luck of course). Most Marines armies will put him at 1-2 wounds before he assaults and then eventually finish him off with a hidden Fist.

[Ntin]

He has the same weakness as all the other Greater Daemons in that S:3 and S:4 models can still wound it in close combat. He is really 275 because of the two near mandatory upgrades you must take. I actually find all the Greater Daemons to be overpriced for what you get.

[Corpse.]

Abbadon = Bloodthirster

 

I think its fine. Considering the thirster lost very little from 3.5 codex and all the monstrous critters are being nerfed in the updates.

[Ntin]

The context in which the greater daemons exist changed once they were removed from Chaos Marines. At the time they possessed a champion which was a slightly safer way to get into combat. They also had an entire list of MEQ units with shooting attacks. Currently they are not bad but the point cost makes it hard to swallow when cheaper Heralds can do many of the same roles with the same number of attacks.

[donates]

The context in which the greater daemons exist changed once they were removed from Chaos Marines. At the time they possessed a champion which was a slightly safer way to get into combat. They also had an entire list of MEQ units with shooting attacks. Currently they are not bad but the point cost makes it hard to swallow when cheaper Heralds can do many of the same roles with the same number of attacks.

 

I have to disagree with the fact that two heralds can perform many of the same roles ( This is my opinion though, and i respect yours ) the reasons are:

 

- Yes i understand that they can have the same amount of attacks, however in saying that the bloodthirster is WS10 meaning it is hitting extremely more and getting hit less

 

- The heralds also lack the mobility of the bloodthirster, meaning they struggle to perform a load of roles the big guy can do

 

- A bloodthirster also has a bit more durability with 4+ inv save ( can take some of the heavy stuff better )

 

But in saying all this i do have the slightest bit more agreement about the fact that heralds can find cover alot easier

[minigun762]

The context in which the greater daemons exist changed once they were removed from Chaos Marines. At the time they possessed a champion which was a slightly safer way to get into combat. They also had an entire list of MEQ units with shooting attacks. Currently they are not bad but the point cost makes it hard to swallow when cheaper Heralds can do many of the same roles with the same number of attacks.

 

I have to disagree with the fact that two heralds can perform many of the same roles ( This is my opinion though, and i respect yours ) the reasons are:

 

- Yes i understand that they can have the same amount of attacks, however in saying that the bloodthirster is WS10 meaning it is hitting extremely more and getting hit less

 

- The heralds also lack the mobility of the bloodthirster, meaning they struggle to perform a load of roles the big guy can do

 

- A bloodthirster also has a bit more durability with 4+ inv save ( can take some of the heavy stuff better )

 

But in saying all this i do have the slightest bit more agreement about the fact that heralds can find cover alot easier

 

I think the biggest drawback of the Heralds is that the Bloodthirster is one of the top 3 anti-tank choices for Daemons whereas Heralds are good at killing infantry (like the vast majority of Daemons).

So to give up your 'Thirsters means you have to find your dedicated anti-tank elsewhere.

[Ntin]

Yes, a Bloodthirster is obviously better at anti-armor but a Space Marine Sergeant with a melta-bomb can get the same attack off. 275 points is such a huge point sink to kill a 140 point predator when it is already a Lascannon magnet for being a monstrous creature.

[Captain Malachi]

All two/three of our reliable anti-tank choices are lascannon magnets. The difference with the 'thirster is that he has a decent chance of surviving those lascannons and he's a great deal better at killing the tanks in the first place. Yeah, for 275, it's a lot to kill a predator, kill two preds and you're up five points, kill a land raider and a pred and you're up by over 100.

[Son of Corax]

First off: no, i do not believe he's overpriced. my first experience with a bloodthirster was with my orks in trukks army. first turn he drops, two trucks roll up, unload, shoot, charge, and kill him. he killed 20-30 points of boyz before he went down.

 

second: i feel that as long as you aren't khorne dedicated, the BT is a pretty crappy anti-tank choice. soulgrinders attract less fire because they only feel like walkers, screamers are largely ignored by many, people forget flamers can glance anything and fly, and everyone remember, regular seekers can glance a landraider. and the one with S6 can pop it. honestly, there are better choices in the deamon book to kill tanks, its just the S7 MC is the most obvious one.

 

third: i am personally of the opinion that anything that a greater deamon can do 2 heralds can do for the same price or cheaper. need the high number of power weapon attacks? take 2 khorne heralds. need the tank killing? take 2 tzeench heralds on disks with bolt (110 points a pop). unless it has a name, im not a fan of paying that many points for something that honestly is pretty fragile and not outrageously powerful. 6 attacks is pretty lame for 250 points, no matter how you break it down. hell, a warboss gets that at S10 hitting on 3s for 120 points or less.

 

/end rant

[minigun762]

third: i am personally of the opinion that anything that a greater deamon can do 2 heralds can do for the same price or cheaper.

 

Thats only partially true with Tzeentchian Chariot Heralds being the prime example.

Khorne Heralds might give you alot of PW attacks but you don't buy a 'Thirster for PW attacks, you buy it for smashing tanks and other MCs to bits and insta-killing T4 multi-wound models. Hell 'Letters already give you tons of basic PW attacks so its not something you need to stack.

 

Unless its the Tallyman, Nurgle Heralds are pretty horrible.

 

Slaaneshi Chariot Heralds are definately something to be feared since they can be speedy and dangerous. I'd say they're about the same as a Keeper for the most part, little less AT and more anti-infantry.

 

But comparing Khorne Heralds to a Bloodthirster is really a case of apples to oranges.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

First off: no, i do not believe he's overpriced. my first experience with a bloodthirster was with my orks in trukks army. first turn he drops, two trucks roll up, unload, shoot, charge, and kill him. he killed 20-30 points of boyz before he went down.

 

second: i feel that as long as you aren't khorne dedicated, the BT is a pretty crappy anti-tank choice. soulgrinders attract less fire because they only feel like walkers

 

Keep in mind Soul Grinders aren't half as fast, are melta-bait, and Tongue is only a 50% chance of even hitting.

 

screamers are largely ignored by many

 

And with good reason! You're paying 16 points for a model that crumples to Tacticals in melee, and bolters from shooting, and usually will require 4's or - as the case is more often given imminent assault - 6's.

 

people forget flamers can glance anything and fly

 

So we should just be satisfied with using our best anti-infantry unit to score a couple of glancing hits? Seriously?

 

and everyone remember, regular seekers can glance a landraider. and the one with S6 can pop it.

 

Seekers are for the most part even worse than Flamers at anti-tank. Yeah, super-light armor they can cut up, but we take the 'Thirster for the big tanks, something that like you said, can only be penned by one silly model.

 

honestly, there are better choices in the deamon book to kill tanks, its just the S7 MC is the most obvious one.

 

Keep in mind the 'Thirster is effectively S9 at anti-tank, given the virtually mandatory Unholy Might, and the ability to move away and get the Furious Charge bonus.

 

 

Let's face it, Daemons suck at busting armor. So a flying, durable, S9 2D6 penetration platform is very appealing.

[Grand Master Caloth]

Also, the KoS is an effective buster, and usually doesnt draw quite as much fire, but as stated above, most enemies see the BT as more dangerous due to Flight and S9. Another option is a Daemon Prince, Wings, Unholy Might, Iron Hide, and Tzeentch totaling ballpark 215 (without pulling up my codex on my other computer). But even then He lacks the FC and higher S rating, and wings are rediculously exp on DP.

[Archnomad]

Personally I think the Thirster should be 50 pts cheaper. Whenever I play one it always dies the turn it comes down. 4 Wounds just isn't enough. You're telling me my embodiment of the blood god's rage has less wounds than some tyranid maternity ward!? What!??!

 

Yeah, but it's the best you guys got, so keep on truckin =/

[Ju'kosian]

Most things are rightly priced in the codex with the deepstrike rule.

 

The bloodthirster is not overpriced since he had a slight point increase since the 3.5 chaos codex. And he had more chance to do serious damage..

Now he still can dish out a lot of damage but he still gets shot a whole turn before you can go after something..

 

Maybe we'll get a overhaul like the nids since we kinda lack anti armour in the same way the tyranids did :-)