A Treatise on Space Marine Infantry Portable Ranged Weaponry

[General Retreat]

A Treatise on Space Marine Infantry Portable Ranged Weaponry and Deployment

A tactical article for the Space Marine Army by GeneralRetreat (Matt Varnado)

 

Most often, I hear new players asking about armament for Tactical Squads, Devastator Squads, and the like, asking for the “magic combination” that rises above the rest. I have always contended that there is no magic combination – there are only the needs of the rest of your army to consider. I believe what these players need is a real understanding of the different types of weapons available to the Space Marines, what they are made to do, and how best to deploy them to minimize weakness and maximize effect. I believe that the best tactical doctrine is one of combined arms. Using too much of any one type of weapon leads to waste, inevitably, or even complete lack of use in the wrong circumstances. What I humbly attempt to do here is classify the arsenal we know and love into broad “Tiers” of weapons, with notes on each to give the reader some ideas to form or supplement their own tactical preferences. These Tiers are a rough attempt to classify these weapons from heaviest ordnance to lightest. I only seek to cover the infantry-portable weapons here - vehicle weapons, due to so many factors, deserve space all their own. I’m sure I’ve missed a few and probably made a few typographical or memory errors here and there. Your comments, criticisms, corrections, additions, and doctrinal differences of opinion are welcome as always.

 

 

Tier 1

 

The Lascannon Str 9 AP 2 48” Heavy 1

 

Primarily an anti-light armor weapon, and usually found on vehicles, a Marine can carry it only thanks to his power armor. It begs to be used against skimmers, transports, and maybe even a main battle tank. Its 48” range allows you to deploy this on your back edge, or in a corner, and still command most of the board. Taken in Devastator squads, it’s very expensive, while in a Tactical Squad, you can only get one. This only exacerbates the main weakness of the weapon, low Rate of Fire. One shot means one bad roll can ruin your day. However, taking it as a single weapon in a Devastator squad allows you to use the Signum for BS 5 to hit on 2+. In a Sicarious based force, a Tactical Squad with a Lascannon can be granted Tank Hunters, giving it (effectively) Strength 10 against AVs. Too bad you can’t combine the two. Non AV targets should include enemy commanders of T4 or less, Multi-Wound models of T4 or less such as Nobs and Tau Crisis Suits, Monstrous Creatures, and TEQs when bypassing a 2+ save is advantageous.

 

The Plasma Cannon Str 7 AP2 36” Heavy 1, Blast, Gets Hot!

 

Though the Plasma Cannon is the premier anti-heavy infantry weapon of the Imperium, great power does come with risk. In this case, that risk is much less than the potential killing power of an AP2 Blast. It can fail you at a bad time (1/6th if you’re lucky), and the blast can even scatter back on you if you aren’t careful, but the ability to wipe out a clump of TEQs in one shot is amazing. Even used against lesser troops, wounding on a 2 virtually everything and bypassing all armor saves can make any unit evaporate very quickly. Used on Aspect Warriors or Firewarriors, or Marines or Chaos Marines, this weapon will make its points up very quickly if deployed well. With a 36” range, you will need to find a spot about 12” from the edge to get real coverage, and the higher the better. Cover is far too easy to get, so if you can find a building sitting on a plain with lots of open space around it, a Plasma Cannon can command the 36” bubble around it like no other infantry killing weapon can. In a pinch, it can be used to fire at vehicles AV11 or less. If fired at a squadron, you might even get multiple hits.

 

The Assault Cannon Str 6 AP 4 24” Heavy 4, Rending

 

The Assault Cannon is the balancer of the Lascannon. Whereas the Lascannon has great range and one shot, the Assault Cannon has half the range, and four shots. Strength 6 will wound any MEQ on a 2+, and bypass Carapace or Aspect Warrior armor with ease. Rending allows it to get in the odd AP2 shot, or, once in range, actually have a better chance at penetrating AV14 than the Lascannon. These are only man-portable in Terminator Squads, and now only one per five models. However, for doing things like shooting down high toughness models from mid range, there is no finer weapon. Four shots also allows this weapon to be reasonably good at crowd control, especially from the 12-24” range.

 

The Heavy Flamer Str 5 AP 4 Template Assault 1

 

Portable only by Terminators, Sternguard, and Legion of the Damned, this is the ultimate answer to your crowd control needs. With the same Strength and AP as a Heavy Bolter, it is elevated to Tier 1 status by the virtue of two things; being able to potentially hit more than 3 models, and ignoring cover. The fact that all hits are automatic also adds to the value of this weapon. Where a regular flamer may not toast Genestealers with Extended Carapace, the Heavy Flamer will, and reliably so, since it bypasses cover. The 8” template is the main weakness, of course, but once again, the greater strength and AP over a regular flamer will guarantee many more kills before the counter-charge. Assuming you plan to charge, using this weapon is a horrible mistake for exactly the same reason. It will help you remove so many casualties you may put yourself out of charge range. Used wisely, this weapon can destroy whole Scout squads, Pathfinder Squads, and Aspect Warrior squads at a time. In a Terminator squad, the combined weight of four Storm Bolters and a Heavy Flamer will put a dent in even MEQ squads. In a Legion of the Damned squad the best application may be the ability to fire it after deep-strike. LotD having a re-roll to scatter allows you to place it aggressively with confidence. Sternguard can take two in a 5 man squad, and can fire the Assault weapon on the move, or even from the firing points of a Rhino that moves 6".

 

The Cyclone Missle Launcher Str4 AP 5 Blast / Str8 AP3 48” Heavy 2

 

This weapon makes it to the bottom of Tier One because it finally got a second shot in this edition. See the section in Tier 2 on the standard Missile Launcher, and then double the effect, with the ability to move and fire from the back of a Terminator. Also, in a stroke of luck, the CML does not replace the Storm Bolter of the unit, allowing a 5 man squad to crank out 10 Bolt shots and 2 Missiles a turn while moving. The potential for this weapon is the best overall of the three Terminator Heavy choices. Combining range, strength, multi-hit possibility, and Rate of Fire while not sacrificing a Storm Bolter is what makes the CML one of the truly golden combinations of the new codex. Ten Terminators with two Cyclone Missile Launchers puts out the same amount of Missile Fire as a Devastator squad with 4 Missile Launchers, but can move and fire ten Storm Bolters out to 24” as well. Combined with a Librarian with Gate of Infinity and some Locator Beacons, you could warp this squad around as a hyper-mobile firebase, able to fire after the teleport, thanks to Relentless, and simply lay waste to any backfield armor your enemy likes to hide during deployment.

 

The Autocannon Str 7 AP 4 48” Heavy 2

 

I know I said I wouldn’t include vehicle weapons, but the Dreadnought operates similarly to infantry so I think it bears inclusion. The Autocannon is a good all-around weapon, with a decent Rate of Fire and good strength. Its main drawback is that the strength isn’t quite high enough to threaten armor above AV12, and AP 4 falls short of making it a good MEQ killer. Against 4+ save infantry, it can shine, but with only two shots, it can rarely kill enough to dent. Taken as a twin-linked weapon on a Dreadnought, I would classify it as a Tier 1 weapon, but just barely. What it does do is punish light armor squadrons. The “Rifleman” pattern Dreadnought (Mortis DA?) with two twin-linked Autocannons can put out a respectable 4 Strength 7 shots at 48”, all twin-linked. This is the perfect tool for counter-shooting a squadron of Land Speeder Typhoons, Sentinels, War Walkers, or Tau Piranha who hang back to shoot.

 

 

Tier 2

 

The Missile Launcher Str 4 AP 5 Blast / Str 8 AP 3 48” Heavy 1

 

The Missile Launcher is the Swiss Army Knife of Space Marine weaponry. Combined with a commanding range, the utility of both the Frag and Krak firing modes are hard to deny. Fired with Frag munitions, there is no need to roll to hit, but you must contend with the vagaries of scatter dice. Fired with Krak rounds, you can threaten light to medium armor, or bypass MEQ 3+ armor. The main weaknesses of this weapon are low Rate of Fire and inability to move and shoot. A single missile launcher can be very unreliable, such as in a Tactical squad, but it is something your enemy must worry about. It represents a very real threat to hordes and light armor, but in practice, one missile usually isn’t enough to do the job. Taken in a group of three or four launchers in a Devastator squad, you can achieve the kind of volume of fire that can remove an entire gaunt brood or IG platoon in a single shooting round with good scatter results, or drop an entire squadron of Land Speeders. The Strength 8 Krak missile can also be used to get Instant Kill wounds on models like enemy commanders, Nob Bikers, and Tyranid Warriors, while the AP3 can be useful to knock wounds off of a Carnifex or an Avatar of Khaine. The only place this really fails is against TEQs. Single wound models with a 2+ armor save are better dealt with by Plasma. Taking a Devastator squad of 10 with one Lascannon and three Missile Launchers is a great unit for the ability to split into two combat squads, one of which is a three Missile Launcher squad with two ablative wounds, and one a Lascannon with Signum (for BS5) and three ablative wounds.

 

The Heavy Bolter Str 5 AP 4 36” Heavy 3

 

The Heavy Bolter is best used as a long-range infantry killer. The inability to move and shoot means that you will need to set these teams up about 12” inside your board edge to get maximum fire coverage. While it tends to fall short of killing Marine and Terminator Equivalents, this weapon excels at light infantry control. With three direct shots, no scatter dice can ruin your day; you can bet on two hits per turn at a good enough strength to wound almost all infantry on 2+ or 3+, the AP 4 will punch right through Firewarriors, Aspect Warriors, Genestealers, and Stormtroopers. Deployment is almost identical to the Plasma Cannon, somewhere high up in a building surrounded by open field is ideal. The Heavy Bolter is, overall, your most consistent and reliable medium-to-long range infantry killer. Flamers have to be too close, and blasts can scatter off into nothingness, and Plasma Cannons can overheat, but a few Heavy bolters in strategic spots create a wall of fire consistently, and at a rate that can even defeat units in cover. The direct-fire is even better when used against an opponent who always spreads his units to maximum coherency to minimize blast weapons. Spread correctly, you should never get more than two hits on a unit with a small blast template, while the Heavy Bolter will always have the potential for three hits. In a pinch, Heavy Bolters can be used against AV10 or 11, hoping that the rate of fire will produce at least one damage result.

 

The Multi-Melta Str 8 AP 1 24” Heavy 1, Melta

 

Given the new rules for Vulkan He’Stan, and the sudden reduction of the Multi-Melta cost to a free selection in a ten man Tactical Squad, it comes as no surprise that the previously neglected Multi-Melta is finding its way into lists again. This is one of the hardest weapons to deploy and use to maximum effect because of its maddening combination of requirements. High strength, low rate of fire, and AP 1 makes this an obvious vehicle killer. Lack of move and fire ability combined with a 12” prime firing range makes this almost impossible to deploy against any armor piece that moves. However, if you sneak one close enough in a Rhino, drop one in a Drop Pod, or have it sitting in a commanding central spot, it can be the deadliest anti-armor weapon in the arsenal. For the first two options, lack of move and shoot capability really cripples the gun, allowing your opponent a whole turn to get outside of 12”. On the flip side, you just managed to force him to scramble his Basilisks out of the way instead of firing. The threat of force can be just as useful as force itself in a circumstance like this. If you do get a shot, you’ve got a great chance of destroying anything, and everyone knows it. Play it like a knight on a chessboard. Drop in the middle and in range of multiple targets, and force your opponent to choose what to loose. Alternatively, deploying a squad of 2-4 Multi-Meltas in a Devastator squad is a great way to make a No Vehicles zone somewhere on the board. Drop them right in the middle, or in a good position overlooking a main avenue and you can really shut down your opponent’s mobility options. Even at 24”, AP1 will drive home any damage you do, but Strength 8 falls short of being a serious threat to AV13 and 14 without the 2D6 penetration when in melta range. If all the enemy armor flees like ants before your mighty Multi-Melta, this can also be used for 24” Instant Kill sniping on high-value enemy infantry. This weapon is far better deployed on an Attack Bike, Land Speeder, or Land Raider, who can all add 12” to the weapon range with movement before firing.

 

The Meltagun Str 8 AP 1 12” Assault 1

 

The assault version of the Multi-Melta, the Meltagun shares a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses as its larger cousin, with one notable exception, the ability to move and shoot. With only half the range, the Meltagun is best delivered point-blank, within 6” of enemy armor. However, being an Assault weapon, it’s actually much easier to accomplish than getting within 12” with a Multi-Melta. A Meltagun in a Tactical Squad mounted in a Rhino can drive forward 12”, and deploy within 2” of the door, giving you about 14” to add to the 6” melta range when figuring out delivery methods. You can also move 6” in the Rhino, and fire it from the top hatch for some drive-by armor killing. The Melta and Multi-Melta are best used against AV13 or 14, since other weapons with higher rates of fire can handle AV12 and down. One shot comes down to one dice, as always, so always plan for the worst and try to deploy so that your squad can survive even if it fails to make the kill. Also, arming your Seargent with a Combi-Melta can help you insure that your first target goes down quickly. When not used against vehicles, the Meltagun can provide Str8 Instant Kills while still allowing a charge. Unfortunately, most of the infantry targets you want to use the Meltagun on aren’t the same ones you’ll want to charge with a Tactical squad, for the most part, but the option is there.

 

The Plasmagun Str 7 AP 2 24” Rapid Fire, Gets Hot!

 

This is the weapon of choice for facing down Marine and Terminator Equivalents or any heavy infantry from close range. AP2 will bypass Feel No Pain from pesky Death Companies and Plague Marines, and will put Necrons down for the count. Strength 7 will wound even a Carnifex most of the time, and can be used against light armor if needed. Gets Hot is an issue at times, but at least it’s not as bad as in the 4th Edition, where a 1 or a 2 got Hot. Now, you have a flat 1/6th chance per shot of taking a wound, and a 1/3 chance of failing the save as a Marine. Given the potential damage output of the weapon over the game, this risk is most often worth a 1/18 chance per shot of loosing the model. This can be used in conjunction with a Lascannon in a Tactical squad to give them another AP2 shot at mid-range, or with a Seargent with Combi-Plasma or Plasma Pistol to maximize drive-by and disembarking shots from a Rhino. Another good combination is a Command Squad with 2-4 Plasmaguns. A model with Feel No Pain (from the Apothecary) reduces the risk of shooter death to 1/36. A quad-Plasmagun Command Squad can absolutely murder a unit of Terminators in a single round of shooting in rapid-fire range. Add a Captain with Plasma Pistol (like Sicarious) and a Razorback with Lascannon/Twin-linked Plasmagun to really maximize the Plasma Shock effect.

 

The Flamer Str 4 AP 5 Template Assault 1

 

This weapon is a classic standby of the Tactical Squad, used for thinning hordes, especially the ones that like to lurk in cover. With Template coverage, catching your opponent clumped up in the bushes waiting to assault is what you want to do. The main drawback of the weapon is that it often leaves you stranded, having killed enough models to put you out of range of the assault. These are good to have in Tactical Squads if you know you are facing a horde, or if you have no desire to assault. They do pick up a bit of usefulness in an Assault Squad, which can take two Flamers. Used against Kroot or Eldar Guardians in cover, you can often do more damage with piles of auto-hits at Strength 4 than getting into assault with a full-strength unit. However, with the Strength and AP of a Boltgun, this weapon can be easily outclassed by MEQ opponents or high toughness. It remains in Tier Two because of the ability to auto-hit while ignoring cover, and potentially gets more than two hits on a unit.

 

The Storm Bolter Str 4 AP 5 24” Assault 2

 

This is the big brother of the Boltgun; essentially two of them strapped together on a shotgun trigger. It has a better rate of fire and a better range than the standard Bolter, and if this weren’t advantage enough, it allows for assault afterwards. The only drawback of this pattern is that it does not count as a pistol weapon for the +1 attack in close combat. Most people are familiar with Storm Bolters as the standard armament of the Terminators, but it can also be taken on a Tactical Seargent for a cheap way to add fire, or to a Captain or Commander for small points games. If you plan on using a Powerfist or Thunderhammer anyway, the Storm Bolter is an excellent pairing since a pistol weapon won’t grant you +1 A anyway.

 

Tier 3

 

The Boltgun (Bolter) Str 4 AP5 24” Rapid Fire

 

The mighty standby of the Space Marines, the Boltgun is the most widely recognized weapon, and perhaps symbol, of the Space Marine army. Billed as a .75 caliber SMG firing rocket-propelled explosive miniature warheads, a lot of people are very underwhelmed by this weapon’s very average stat-line after just a few games’ use. Strength 4 means you only wound enemy Marines on a 4+, while AP 5 can’t even pierce Carapace Armor. The short 12” range of rapid-fire exposes you to the enemy, while the 24” range mode halves your rate of fire to a single shot per marine and forces the squad to stay stationary. What the Boltgun does do, however, is come by the Rhino-load. Volume of fire is actually the most reliable way to accomplish anything in the cover-rich environment of 5th Edition Warhammer 40K, and every Space Marine can hit on a 3+. To perform the classic Bolter Shock maneuver, simply mount a squad of ten Marines in a Rhino, drive up and disembark within 12” of your target, and unload with everything. As long as your target is T4 or less, you have a decent chance to pile on the wounds. The idea is that any armor, even 2+ Terminator armor, will fail those saves if you make them roll enough. Boltguns may not be amazing by themselves, but a squad volley of Strength 4 fire is actually one of the greatest things the Space Marines can do. Although you don’t find the lighter units much in the current game these days, the Boltgun is an optimal armament for light infantry killing. Eldar Guardians, Gaunts, Flak Vest wearing IG platoons, and Orks with 5+ or lower armor saves have a right to be afraid. If a squad of Boltguns can deployed quickly within 12”, they can cause enough wounds to cripple or destroy the unit outright. All it takes is 25% casualties to force a leadership check, and some armies don’t have anything to save them from falling back off of the board. Boltguns also come twin-linked on bikes as standard, with the primary application difference being the Relentless nature of bikes, which allows them to use the 24” single shot mode even after a full 12” move. Strength 4 can also glance AV10 if there’s nothing else to do, and if you grant Tank Hunters to a Tactical Squad with Sicarious, those Bolters can suddenly penetrate AV10 and glance AV11.

 

The Plasma Pistol Str 7 AP 2 12” Pistol, Gets Hot!

 

As the smallest package plasma comes in, the Plasma Pistol can add a significant shooting punch to any unit in the army. A Tactical Seargent can take one in place of his Bolt Pistol, which is especially effective in squads armed with a Plasmagun special weapon. Since you will already be seeking the 12” Rapid Fire range most of the time, having a third Str 7 AP2 shot can give a little extra insurance to eliminating the target. When shooting at squads like Terminators and FNP Plague Marines it especially shines, increasing the potential damage of the unit by almost 50%. With the Plasmagun/Plasma Pistol combination in a Rhino, the Rhino can drive 6” and both weapons can be fired from the top hatches, allowing for a three-shot mobile plasma pillbox. Add a Plasma Cannon to the unit, and now you have the option to sit still for a Cannon shot and 1 single-shot at 24”. Plasma Pistols can be taken by Assault Marines for a maximum of three in a unit. This can really surprise an opponent who has never seen this deployment, as they suddenly have a jump packing unit putting out three Str 7 AP2 shots a turn. Vanguard Vets and Command Squads can take a Plasma Pistol for each model, with the Command Squad benefiting from Feel No Pain. Aside from the points costs, this can lead to some very scary squads. A Command Squad with Plasma Pistol x4 and Powersword x4 might just be the best of both worlds, but once again, tactical casualty removal seriously hampers any unit that attempts to shoot before charging.

 

The Bolt Pistol Str4 AP5 12” Pistol

 

The best thing you can say about a Bolt Pistol is – at least it’s not a Laspistol. Just as a Boltgun, a Strength 4 AP5 single shot at 12” isn’t going to win anyone a marksman award. The only reason this stays in Tier 3, and the reason every Seargent has one, is because as a pistol, it grants +1 Attack in Assault. If you are performing a Bolter Shock maneuver, this is one more shot to pile on, since you’ll be within 12” anyway, and if the squad is about to charge, everyone can now shoot once, thanks to the fact that every Tactical Marine comes with a Bolt Pistol now. Why they gave everyone a Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades and Krak Grenades, but left out the Combat Blade is beyond this author’s ability to understand. So, every Marine gets a Bolt Pistol, so a charging Tactical squad can crank out 10 St 4 shots before a charge. Don’t forget that your Heavy Weapon carrier isn’t useless on the charging shots; he’s just reduced to firing his sidearm. This leads back to the same problem as the Flamer, and all Assault weapons, really. Shooting before charging is a perfectly logical thing to do, but in game terms, it can defeat the charge by a smart enemy player’s tactical model removal. If your charge is on the edge of the distance, or only to one or two models, you want to forgo shooting to make sure you catch them. You can choose to not shoot with a unit, but if you fire, you have to fire all weapons. If you fire 10 Bolt Pistols, or 9 and a Flamer at a unit that is 4” away, you very well might remove just enough models to put you out of charge range. The general recommendation is to only shoot if you can charge the rear-most enemy model in the unit.

 

The Sniper Rifle Str X AP 5 36” Heavy 1, Sniper (Rending, Pinning)

 

The original Hellfire Rounds, the Sniper Rifle is the only weapon to innately wound on a 4+ regardless of Toughness. Scouts came down to BS 3 in this Codex, which reduces the potential output of a sniper unit, but as before, the utility of a long range Pinning weapon is hard to deny. Rending also can add bite to the unit, and hopefully ensure at least one casualty to force the Pinning check. Taken in small numbers, these tend to be so capricious as to be a waste, but taken for a large unit, they can do a great job on infantry and Monstrous Creatures. A Sniper weapon is really wasted against Toughness 4 or less, but quickly picks up efficiency over a standard Boltgun on Toughness 5 or higher models. Against The Avatar, a C’Tan, a Warboss, or a Carnifex, Sniper Rifles start to really shine, as they can start to stack wounds on these big guys in high enough volume to threaten them. When deployed against a horde, attempt to pin a unit that will hamper units behind, or at least stagger the waves back in one spot or another. Delaying just one unit of Orks may buy you all the time you need to turn back the assault. Once you get that Pin, though, move on to other units. Just like with Shaking/Stunning vehicles, once you’ve got them shut down for the next turn, they become a non-immediate threat, and the rest of your firepower should redirect to something more pressing. The 36” range meshes well with Telion’s Stalker Pattern Boltgun, making this the optimal loadout for a Scout squad with Telion for the Seargent.

 

The Shotgun Str 4 AP - 12” Assault 2

 

Also for the Scouts in this Codex, the Shotgun is an interesting alternative to the Boltgun for the squad. As an Assault 2 weapon, it can be fired freely before the charge, on the move, or from the back of the open-topped Land Speeder Storm if it slows down long enough. The short range and moderate rate of fire make it difficult to use in the BS 3 Scout squads, and AP – makes it suitable for only the lightest infantry, or shooting at targets in cover or who would take an armor save anyway. It is at least Strength 4 (now) to have a decent chance to wound. Perhaps the best use of them is in a squad that hopes to assault units in cover, but would rather do casualties with shooting so as to have fewer models to fight against in Assault.

 

Thanks for reading, I hope you found something worth the time it took to wade through that wall of text! :P

-GR

[minigun762]

Its a good read but I think it might be better if you try organizing it into function or using a tier system and function combined.

That would probably be the best.

Nice job though.

[ShinyRhino]

One minor gribble...the assault cannon never has a better chance at penetrating AV14 than a lascannon. Rending hits give S6+d3+d6, max value of 15. Same with the lascannon.

Sure, there's the minute chance of more than one Rending hit in a 4-shot cluster, but you'd be nutty to rely on that.

[Ming]

Great summary!

[Arkios]

Statisticaly speaking, an Assault Cannon is better at penetrating and glancing AV 14 than a Lascannon...

 

One Lascannon with a BS 4 shooter has ONE shot per shooting phase and a 4/6 (66.67%) chance to hit with it.

If it hits, it has a 1/6 (16.67%) chance to penetrate and a 2/6 (33.33%) chance to at least glance AV 14.

So in total, the chance for a lascannon to:

at least GLANCE AV14 = (1 shot)x(4/6 chance to hit)x(2/6 chance to at least glance) = 8/36 or 22.22%

PENETRATE AV14= (1 shot)x(4/6 chance to hit)x(1/6 chance to pen) = 4/36 or 11.11%

 

 

One Assault Cannon with a BS 4 shooter has FOUR shots per shooting phase and a 4/6 (66.67%) chance to hit with each shot.

Each shot that hits has a 1/6 (16.67%) chance to rend, leading to a further d3 roll where there is a 1/3 (33.33%) chance to penetrate, and a 2/3 chance to at least glance AV 14.

So in total, the chance for a single Assault cannon to:

at least GLANCE AV14 = (4 shots)x(4/6 chance to hit)x(1/6 chance to rend)x(2/3 chance to at least glance) = 8/27 or 29.63%

PENETRATE AV14= (4 shots)x(4/6 chance to hit)x(1/6 chance to rend)x(1/3 chance to pen) = 4/27 or 14.81%

 

 

So technically ONE Assault Cannon has a 14.81% chance to penetrate AV 14, vs ONE Lascannon's 11.11%; it also has a better chance to score at least glancing hits as well.

[ShinyRhino]

Statisticaly speaking, an Assault Cannon is better at penetrating and glancing AV 14 than a Lascannon...

 

Some of your equations are a tad off...

 

One Lascannon with a BS 4 shooter has ONE shot per shooting phase and a 4/6 (66.67%) chance to hit with it.

If it hits, it has a 1/6 (16.67%) chance to penetrate and a 2/6 (33.33%) chance to at least glance AV 14.

So in total, the chance for a lascannon to:

at least GLANCE AV14 = (1 shot)x(4/6 chance to hit)x(2/6 chance to at least glance) = 8/36 or 22.22%

PENETRATE AV14= (1 shot)x(4/6 chance to hit)x(1/6 chance to pen) = 4/36 or 11.11%

 

The chance to "at least Glance" is statistically irrelevant when followed by the chance to Penerate. Now, if it had been worded as "to actually Glance", it'd be useful. You're just doubling your math :P ;)

 

One Assault Cannon with a BS 4 shooter has FOUR shots per shooting phase and a 4/6 (66.67%) chance to hit with each shot.

Each shot that hits has a 1/6 (16.67%) chance to rend, leading to a further d3 roll where there is a 1/3 (33.33%) chance to penetrate, and a 2/3 chance to at least glance AV 14.

So in total, the chance for a single Assault cannon to:

at least GLANCE AV14 = (4 shots)x(4/6 chance to hit)x(1/6 chance to rend)x(2/3 chance to at least glance) = 8/27 or 29.63%

PENETRATE AV14= (4 shots)x(4/6 chance to hit)x(1/6 chance to rend)x(1/3 chance to pen) = 4/27 or 14.81%

 

Same thing here. Both weapons have the exact same chance to glance as they do to pen on a successful hit. The "to at least" is overstating the effectiveness of the weapon, as it's redundant to your followup info.

 

So technically ONE Assault Cannon has a 14.81% chance to penetrate AV 14, vs ONE Lascannon's 11.11%; it also has a better chance to score at least glancing hits as well.

 

The AssCan has a 14-15% chance to glance or pen. The las has an 11% chance to glance or stun. The 3% difference is too small to use reliably. Statistical variations that small are dismissible.

 

Now, the REAL bonus for the AssCan is that it gets its four shots versus non AV models, with the chance to rend. THAT is the kicker over the lascannon.

You also have to remember that you're not comparing these two weapons in a vacuum. Lascannons are only available on Devastators and Tacticals (in the man-portable form!). AssCans are only available on Terminators. These are some vastly different role-tailored units. Devastators firing lascannons at infantry obviously have no other viable shots, so the stats are pointless for AV damage. Terminators firing AssCans at AV give up the bonuses against infantry, the ability to assault (outside 6" at least), plus their stormbolter fire.

Mathhammer is great in a vacuum, but trash on the battlefield.

 

I fear I've strayed far off-topic here,though. lol

[General Retreat]

The numbers aren't irrelevant, and the difference is there, even if slight. Comparing one Lascannon to one Assault Cannon is fine, considering this is a review of the weapons. Notes on squad usage are included, but the idea is to compare them all across a wide base to provide new generals (players) a decent comparative picture of the range of ordnance available. Arkios is exactly correct with the math about ACs penetrating AV14. Now, I think I included enough information on why you normally would not be doing such, but I have tried to give "in a pinch" uses for each weapon as well. AC vs AV14 is one of those needy circumstances.

[ShinyRhino]

I did wander waaaaay off topic there. lol.

Hooray for caffeine-fueled rants :D

[Arkios]

Some of your equations are a tad off...

Nope, my "equations" are dead on. Chance to hit, multiplied by chance of desired outcome ( Glance, Penetrate, or both a.k.a.- at least Glance), multiplied by the number of shots fired. (In the case of rending weapons such as the Assault Cannon, you need to multiply in the chance to Rend in order to have any chance to Glance and/or Penetrate.)

 

The chance to "at least Glance" is statistically irrelevant when followed by the chance to Penerate. Now, if it had been worded as "to actually Glance", it'd be useful. You're just doubling your math ;) ;)

Same thing here. Both weapons have the exact same chance to glance as they do to pen on a successful hit. The "to at least" is overstating the effectiveness of the weapon, as it's redundant to your followup info.

I beg to differ. The "to at least glance" chance I give is just to give you a general idea of the ability of the weapon to put ANY sort of dent into a target, and since people generally find penetrating hits more useful, I give the % chance for those straight up. True, If I were to give you the chance of straight up glancing, you can simply add the two together to get the "at least glance" number, but you can just as easily subtract the pen chance from the "at least glance" chance I give to find the. All in all its just arguing over something silly when all the information is there in the first place. :(

 

Anyways, scoring 3 glancing hits and disabling the weapons/movement/wrecking a vehicle can be just as useful as a solid penetrating hit. Hell, Ive had games where a combat squad (who's sole purpose was to sit on an objective) would turn after turn glance and stun a powerful vehicle the entire game, rendering it effectively useless, and thus saving me from wasting more firepower on it for a turn (a stunned vehicle is effectively a destroyed vehicle for that one turn) while also saving me the headache of having it rampage about unchecked.

 

 

The AssCan has a 14-15% chance to glance or pen. The las has an 11% chance to glance or stun. The 3% difference is too small to use reliably. Statistical variations that small are dismissible.

 

Now, the REAL bonus for the AssCan is that it gets its four shots versus non AV models, with the chance to rend. THAT is the kicker over the lascannon.

You also have to remember that you're not comparing these two weapons in a vacuum. Lascannons are only available on Devastators and Tacticals (in the man-portable form!). AssCans are only available on Terminators. These are some vastly different role-tailored units. Devastators firing lascannons at infantry obviously have no other viable shots, so the stats are pointless for AV damage. Terminators firing AssCans at AV give up the bonuses against infantry, the ability to assault (outside 6" at least), plus their stormbolter fire.

Mathhammer is great in a vacuum, but trash on the battlefield.

 

I fear I've strayed far off-topic here,though. lol

 

All of this is true is true, and is not something that I will fight you over. In most of my lists I personally run, I try to mix in both Assault cannons AND Lascannons, as they both have their uses. As you just said, Assault Cannons may be SLIGHTLY better than Lascannons against AV 14, but is it worth sacrificing the potential 4 infantry kills it can generate, PLUS all the Storm Bolter fire from the rest of the Terminator squad to fire it at a Land Raider? I would much rather take a shot with a solo Lascannon or two stuck in with Tactical Combat Squads who are far away (and safe) from the action... four wasted bolter shots will not be missed. Another thing to keep in mind is that the Assault cannon has to be within 24" of its target where as a Lascannon has twice the threat radius. That extra range makes a HUGE difference!

 

At the end of the day, it all comes down to the judgement of the General. He (or she) must decide where to apply they tools they have to work with... BUT in order to do so, they must be informed and educated as to what their tools are capable of. To ignore any potential use of a weapon system is a sign of an ignorant or uneducated commander, and Emperor help them if a commissar catches wind of that! :)

[Xeonic]

All of this lascannon dev vs assault cannon terminator talk is great, but none of it matter if the weapons are mounted on a dreadnought and you can elect to fire your assault cannon or TLLascannon at whatever target you like. I for one, have always used my assault cannon dreads vs any target that's handy. :D

Now granted, it's not exactly a multi-melta, but my assault cannon dreads have popped a few vehicles in their time.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

One minor gribble...the assault cannon never has a better chance at penetrating AV14 than a lascannon. Rending hits give S6+d3+d6, max value of 15. Same with the lascannon.

Sure, there's the minute chance of more than one Rending hit in a 4-shot cluster, but you'd be nutty to rely on that.

 

LC chance to DESTROY AV 14 = 3.7%

 

AC volley chance to DESTROY AV 14 = 4.94%

 

You can slice it a few ways;

AC has 1.24% more chance to DESTROY AV 14, which sounds tiny.

 

100/4.94 x 3.7 = 74.9%

LC has on 75% chance compared to AC volley, which makes a LC sound small.

 

100/3.7 x 4.94 = 133.5%

AC volley has 133.5% chance compared to LC, which makes an AC sound massive.

 

All three "interpretations" ARE correct and true.

 

So the AC does actually have a better chance than the LC, in response to what you said.

 

General Retreat Good job :D

 

It is funny how the MM just isn't quite right for Marines but on Armour the weakness is overcome and it, IMO, becomes a Tier 1 (but not for the purposes of this thread of course)

 

I think something for Boltpistols grant is the volley & charge (which you mentioned) which Bolters choke. I tend to think of BP as an i10 attack, which happens to be even better on sv 5+ dudes.

Sometimes ASSAULTING with Tacticals is not for their effect in cc but to get them into the "cover" of cc.

 

I think you have done us a service. :D

[ShinyRhino]

The description of the Shotgun was a bit of a revelation to me. I'd always liked shotguns over BP/CCW for the pure cool-factor ("I like to keep this handy, for close encounters." CHAK-CHAK.)

But they really DO shine when firing at units embedded in cover. Let's say that IG squad is camped out in the trees, lobbing mortarts or lascannon shots into your line. Sure, you can charge in there with your BP/CCW, with the volley of bolter fire. But the shotguns allow you to double your shots before the charge, possibly eliminating a power weapon before you hit the line. Scouts always have frag/krak grenades, so you're not losing any Initiative by charging into cover. You still get 2 attacks per scout on the charge, at a better Initiative value than most units a Scout squad would want to hit.

Bolt pistols have better AP, but if the target is in area terrain, they're getting the 4+ anyways, whcih negates the AP5.

 

Wow, that's like a bolt of lightning for me.

[bystrom]

Statisticaly speaking, an Assault Cannon is better at penetrating and glancing AV 14 than a Lascannon...

 

One Assault Cannon with a BS 4 shooter has FOUR shots per shooting phase and a 4/6 (66.67%) chance to hit with each shot.

Each shot that hits has a 1/6 (16.67%) chance to rend, leading to a further d3 roll where there is a 1/3 (33.33%) chance to penetrate, and a 2/3 chance to at least glance AV 14.

So in total, the chance for a single Assault cannon to:

at least GLANCE AV14 = (4 shots)x(4/6 chance to hit)x(1/6 chance to rend)x(2/3 chance to at least glance) = 8/27 or 29.63%

PENETRATE AV14= (4 shots)x(4/6 chance to hit)x(1/6 chance to rend)x(1/3 chance to pen) = 4/27 or 14.81%

 

 

So technically ONE Assault Cannon has a 14.81% chance to penetrate AV 14, vs ONE Lascannon's 11.11%; it also has a better chance to score at least glancing hits as well.

 

While I believe an assault cannon is (statistically) better, the math is still wrong. For example, shoot 16 assault cannon shots and you get, what 100+%? (You're guaranteed more than one AV14 vehicle dead ;))

You should be calculating chance for one shot to get a pen P, then do: 1 - (1 - P)^S where S is number of shots. That is, get the chance to not get a pen (1-P), then the chance to not get at least one pen (1-P)^S, then the chance to get at least one pen 1-(1-P)^S. Which should be more than a lascannon (if I remember correctly)

[General Retreat]

Thanks guys :P I'm glad it's managed to spread some good knowledge around. Shiny, I had a hard time figuring out what the Shotgun was for, too. Seeing shooting as an "I10" attack option on the way into CC. This sounds really counterproductive (see flamers and tactical casualty removal), but in exactly that circumstance you threw out there, it's perfect. Just a hail of shots before the charge at a unit in cover.

 

I just want the Shotguns to have a choke setting so I can halve the range and increase the scout's BS to 4! Pray and Spray!

[minigun762]

Thanks guys :) I'm glad it's managed to spread some good knowledge around. Shiny, I had a hard time figuring out what the Shotgun was for, too. Seeing shooting as an "I10" attack option on the way into CC. This sounds really counterproductive (see flamers and tactical casualty removal), but in exactly that circumstance you threw out there, it's perfect. Just a hail of shots before the charge at a unit in cover.

 

I just want the Shotguns to have a choke setting so I can halve the range and increase the scout's BS to 4! Pray and Spray!

 

Another bonus with the Shotgun is on the Power Fist Sarge. You won't be getting a 2nd attack from the BP, so might as well take the Shotgun for an extra shot.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the Shotguns overkilling like a Flamer, lets face it they're S4 fired from a BS3 model so not exactly a slaughterfest.

Shotguns are also better if you can't assault that turn, moving 6" and blasting 2 shots > moving 6" and blasting with 1.

 

For the whole topic though, I still believe that it could benefit from a 2nd level of organization.

Whether thats Tiers for anti-tank, anti-infantry and multi-purpose or Tiers based on weapon type (special vs heavy vs vehicle) or something else.

Just my thought though.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Thanks guys :P I'm glad it's managed to spread some good knowledge around. Shiny, I had a hard time figuring out what the Shotgun was for, too. Seeing shooting as an "I10" attack option on the way into CC. This sounds really counterproductive (see flamers and tactical casualty removal), but in exactly that circumstance you threw out there, it's perfect. Just a hail of shots before the charge at a unit in cover.

 

I just want the Shotguns to have a choke setting so I can halve the range and increase the scout's BS to 4! Pray and Spray!

My understanding is SM shotguns fire slugs, IG use shot (which is why they are S3). Even if they didnt you wouldnt reduce range (it would likely lengthen), you would reduce strength. Fun fact, killrange on twelve guage double ot buck is just over 100 yards.

[Warprat]

Great analysis!

 

 

Mods, can this be stickied somewhere?

 

 

 

Warprat ;)