What is worth 25 points per trooper now a days?

[DevianID]

I know we do a lot of bemoaning about changing grey knights to better represent the fearsome warriors they are, but with the advent of the new space wolves et all, and with the mindset that we should stay at 25 points per grey knight, my question is thus: What amount of special rules would make a grey knight worth 25 points compared to the newer troop units?

 

We need to compare the grey knight to the wolves, the IG troopers, the space marines, orks, chaos, ect. Obviously a 3+ armor save, in keeping with tradition. As true grit is all but gone, I say a straight 2 attacks at WS5 per trooper, no restrictions, and fearless of course would stay as well as the current +2 str nemesis force weapons and stormbolters. At a minimum frag grenades as all marines have em, but I also say defensive grenades would be needed. Finally, i would give them all a 5++ invuln save, as they are supposed to be able to bring the fight to daemons and all. For special rules, we can keep the shrouding as is (its more a fluff thing anyway) and keep that daemons must charge as through difficult terrain.

 

(As for weapons, I think the incinerator is fine at 5 points per, but I would change the psycannon to ap3 and 2d6 armor pen versus dreads (and, consequently, the daemonic engines soul grinder and defiler) at 15 points per, and have only 1 heavy weapon per 5 grey knights. However, weapons are more wish listing, as they do not fall under the main topic, namely what is worth 25 points in the current game)

 

Thoughts? Considering what passes for troops in the other books, I would like to know what others think would pass for 25 points per trooper.

 

Finally, this not supposed to be about me wish listing (other than my heavy weapons rant, sorry)--I am actually curious what 25 points adds up to in the current game.

 

My math using expected values supporting the above idea...

 

If we use space wolf grey hunters as a model, 2 grey hunters at 30 points would get 4 attacks when charging, or 6 when counter attacking. Conversly, 1 grey knight at 25 would get 2 when being charged or 3 when charging. The ratio of attacks is thus equal, 2v1 wolves v grey knights. 6 wolf attacks would hit 3 times, wound 1.5 times, kill .5 grey knights, or 12.5 points worth. 3 Grey Knight attacks would hit 2 times, wound 1 2/3rds, killing .55g wolves, or 8.3 points. Thus, space wolves are still tougher point per point, as several of the grey knight advantages are lost on them--as it should be, wolves are known for being ferocious opponents in close combat after all.

 

If we use bloodletters instead, then 2 blood letters at 32 points versus 1 grey knight at 25 points, letters always will have 2 attacks per, charging or not, while the grey knight is at 2-3 attacks depending on charge. If the bloodletters charge, assuming they still have to charge through dangerous terrain being daemons, then the grey knight swings first with 2 attacks, 1 hit, killing .556, or ~9 points worth. The remaining 'letters swing hit and wound and deal ~.65 wounds, or ~16 points of grey knight death. IF the grey knight charges, however, then he deals 13 points of damage to the 'letters, while they deal 17 points of damage back. Factor in that 2 blood letters are 28% more points, ('letters deal 30% more damage when charged at 17 to 13) and the grey knight gets to move and shoot, and I think its pretty fair.

 

As for orks, well ork boys always win in theoryhammer, but a charge of 10 stock grey knights on a mob will hurt them something fierce, 30 attacks, ~14 kills before they strike back--thus grey knights get to play the part as the elite unit that can devastate the enemy when on their terms.

[the jeske]

am making all this under the assumption we are talking here about a gk only force with no IG [what is fun because GK were never desinged to be a stand alone force ].

 

point costs codex vs codex were and will never be balanced . example . both the loyalist and the sw rhino cost the same points. but what would happen if sw got a 12man transport and being able to run 11 man squads [2 specials , wg with combi . one fist one power weapon and probablly an hq in every second rhino] , should they still cost the same ?no they would cost more , but GW in theri wisdom decided that it is better yet again to construckt a pice a gear that is named the same , but has different rules. Ap 3 on psycanons at 15 pts ?? with 2d6[avarge front armor hurt 13 . so with 3 good chance to blow up stuff like LR and leman russ specially when spamed and considering they would cost double in retri squads 4 man psycanons with ap 3 , 3 x4 shots ap3 ingonring inv , power armor and costing not a lot more then 200 pts the idea is crazy . it would be likembuffed up old eldar star canons ] on teleporting models ?? maybe on tanks [same stats but lower ap ] would make sense for dreads or the FW inq stuff.

If the bloodletters charge, assuming they still have to charge through dangerous terrain being daemons, then the grey knight swings first with 2 attacks, 1 hit, killing .556, or ~9 points worth. The remaining 'letters swing hit and wound and deal ~.65 wounds, or ~16 points of grey knight death.

yeah only demons deep strike the GK player has a whole turn of shoting at them , if a unit is in a really dangerous situation it can always move back and run[or move back and shot] considering they can use stuff like psycanons [i give you that they should be chaper probablly 15-20 pts in squads and 30-40 in hvies] or incinerators the demon unit may not see hth . also unlike normal sm or csm units gk are MC death traps with every guy having str 6 and ws 5 .

 

yes the gk themselfs are probablly over costed too[by 5 points I would say on generic guy.] but i would totally not give them extra rules , low ap weapons and the idea of a 2d6 starcanon with options for teleportation is just sick.

[Gentlemanloser]

25 points isn't *too* bad for a PAGK. Considering SG cost the same, and WG with a SB are nearly there.

 

But the Justicar costs far too much, which wacks up the cost of the Squad.

 

I agee True Grit should go for a base of A2, and Shrouding should be buffed. Either reduce the spotting range to something like VoT, or let it provide a Cover Save (or Bonus to, like Stealth). Have Shrouding provide the Defensive Grenade bonus, while giving all PAGK Frag and Krak.

 

The Aegis Suit should probably give a 4+ Save to Daemonic attacks only (In addition to it's current Psychic Save). Seeing as they have no Psychic Powers anymore, let it stop thier AP3 Bolts and Power Weapons.

 

That would be a start. :P

[Magnus Thane]

Extra attack on assault given. And either one extra 'ability' or a pointdrop would do much.

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh and either Dedicated Transports, or an improved DS (with DS Assault) that doesn't make you change FoC and lose scoring status...

[Valerian]

Oh and either Dedicated Transports, or an improved DS (with DS Assault) that doesn't make you change FoC and lose scoring status...

 

I just made an updated "codex" for a Grey Knights only force, that happens to have a lot of these ideas incorporated. I'll try to post the documents in the next day or so. I split it into 4 parts: special rules, psychic powers, armoury (new style), and army list. Pretty much everything is done except the Land Raiders (which have rules available already in the IA update I think), and Orbital Strike, which can be nearly the same.

 

I'll see what I have to do to get them made available.

 

Best regards,

 

Valerian

[SamaNagol]

2 attacks base and no True Grit. Deep Strike rule. Frag Grenades as standard. Access to some sort of Melta Weapon. And LRC/LRRs with Psyk-Out grenade launchers.

 

I'd pay 25pts a model for that.

[Grand Master Caloth]

Idk about that. GK CAN play as their own force. I HATE the fact 5th has forced so many to go Mech.... It doesnt feel right to me in any way. Keep the NFW, and whatnot.. but we NEED a way of handling armor on a similar scale as other forces and we will be able to stand alone again. I dont call always running to induct IG playing Gk. I call it (and Emperor forgive my pride in my Brothers) pathetic that in order to be fully competative we have to hide behind IG inductees or to be relegated to support roles brought in to other SM/IG lists!

[DevianID]

I agree 'the jeske' that psycannons are wishlisty on my part, but in defense of my comment, keep in mind the 2d6 armor pen would be ONLY to walkers--in my mind grey knights would need help from others or to close into melee to deal with vehicles. Also, you need 5 GK for 1 psycannon, thus the psycannons would come to 140 per 1, not counting any justicar upgrade. The 15 point psycannon also incorporates that you lose your +2 str weapons, and a GK purgation squad, if one would even exist, would of course not follow the same conventions as the troop GK. My goal is to balance the GK troops to other troop types, point for point.

 

As for deep strike, I did forget that option--I would actually like to have the deep strike option function like a drop pod in a way, as a special rule that a squad purchases in lieu of a dedicated transport.

 

(My wishlist would be to scatter a large blast template (old school) and reduce the scatter for enemy models underneath--like a drop pod. The Deepstriking models can be placed anywhere as long as they are at least partially touching the large blast template. This option would cost 30 points per squad, and 1/2 of all teleporting squads would come in on turn 1 (teleport attack). This makes the deepstriking greyknights better than regular deepstriking models, and as reliable as a drop pod, (meaning you dont need drop pods in the list))

25 points isn't *too* bad for a PAGK. Considering SG cost the same, and WG with a SB are nearly there.

While I agree that PAGK are not unplayable as is for 25 points (they are very playable), I disagree here that they are fairly balanced; also stern guard dont really compare well despite both units costing 25 points. Sternguard are a shooting elite unit, but more importantly they get 5 point combi weapons. 5 point combiweapons are very busted to begin with, let alone 5 point combi weapons with lots of cool special ammo to boot. 5 sternguard also get discounted heavy weapons, though they lose the special ammo. I suppose you can say the special bolters and combiweapons for sternguard are similar to the combat abilities of the grey knights, but as it stands currently, point for point i think sternguard's goal oriented combi-shooting abilities alone are far more point effective than the entire grey knight package.

 

As for wolf guard with storm bolters, while equipping wolf guard in this way can superficially make them similar to grey knights, such a config would be very, very uncommon and also does not speak to the fact that the wolfguard can also get any number of other cc weapons, combibolters, terminator armor, jump packs, ect. Thus, you pay for the versatility with wolf guard, while the rather strict focus of PAGK troopers means that they should excel in their focus and be better on their terms than a versatile unit such as wolf guard emulating them, and worse than wolf guard at every other task.

[KhorneHunter57x]

I would take them as current, add Frags, Fleet+True Grit (modified so they could move, run, charge, and fire 1 shot OR move and fire 2 shots w/no charge) and Feel No Pain (representing their sheer force of will and unwillingness to give way in the face of the Emperor's enemies) and maybe jack the price up 5 points.

 

For the Justicar: I would do the same as above, but add Melta Bombs as standard and free.

 

I just think that the GKs should have a similar statline and similar wargear to their non-Malleus Astartes bretheren, but they should have a large amount of special rules that set them apart. I think that if you take the current GK SRs and add the couple that I mentioned and then you will have a Grey Knight that, IMO, fits the fluff and is competitive on the tabletop.

[SamaNagol]

Feel No Pain is a very expensive USR, balance wise. And Fleet is anathema to their playing style.

 

2 Attacks base and Counter Attack perhaps. I don't think the dev team realise how ineffectual The Shrouding is though, cos that cost us a lot of points.

 

And the Justicar is fine for his points as well. Giving him Melta Bombs for free is a bit much considering he pays 25 pts for terminator honours and making his S6 ignore saves. That's better value than if you bought a sergeant THonours and a plain old S4 Power Weapon at the same price.

 

Storm Troopers are fine as they are. Maybe give them the Imperial Storm Troopers weaponry, and still have access to 2 Special Weapons. They definitely need to retain the 5 man 2xMelta squads, cos otherwise they won't be able to handle anything.

 

And Psycannon, for their points, need to be brought back into line with the Assault Cannons they were modelled on. S6 Assault18"/Heavy36" 4 Rending.

[minigun762]

Well the Chaos equivalent (Sonic Blaster Noise Marine) is exactly 25 points as well.

vs PAGK's you're gaining +1I, 2 attacks always, access to Rhinos, Frag/Krak grenades and a little more long range static firepower.

 

Now if you give PAGK's 2 base attacks, access to Rhinos and Frag/Kraks, I would say they're doing just fine then. Hell they don't even need Kraks since you're always S6.

 

Fluff wise, I'd like to see a 6+ Inv save built into their armor. Sure its not much, but its something (especially in close combat) and its easy to justify when you talk about their enhanced armor.

[Inquisitor Fox]

And Psycannon, for their points, need to be brought back into line with the Assault Cannons they were modelled on. S6 Assault18"/Heavy36" 4 Rending.

I actually see them as enhanced Heavy Bolters rather than Assault Cannons. You're getting +1 Str, the ability to be assault OR heavy as per old school Ordo Xenos suspensors, and the ability to ignore Invulnerable saves. A bargain in my opinion.. though given the trend to make heavy weapons a bit cheaper I could see a cost reduction.

[Valerian]

Brother (and Sister?) Grey Knights,

 

My Codex: Grey Knights is now complete. I've submitted a .PDF version in to see if Kurgan will make it available via the Downloads area. From past experience, that process can take several days. If anyone wants a read-ahead version, send me a PM with your email address and I'll forward the file to you.

 

Best regards,

 

Valerian

[Gentlemanloser]

And the Justicar is fine for his points as well.

 

He's so not. ^_^

 

When he's more expensive than an equivlaent GKT, there's got to be *something* wrong. :D

 

Plus, it's the inflexibility his cost implies. Sure, you can kit out a SM Sarge to be expensive, with Fist etc. But that's a choice. You can opt to run lean to shave points off the squads cost. You cannot do that with a PAGK squad.

[SamaNagol]

And the Justicar is fine for his points as well.

 

He's so not. :)

 

When he's more expensive than an equivlaent GKT, there's got to be *something* wrong. :P

 

Plus, it's the inflexibility his cost implies. Sure, you can kit out a SM Sarge to be expensive, with Fist etc. But that's a choice. You can opt to run lean to shave points off the squads cost. You cannot do that with a PAGK squad.

 

As it should be. Grey Knights are not there to be run lean. A Space Marine comes with a Bolter, Bolt Pistol and that is standard. A Grey Knight comes with a Storm Bolter and his NFW.

 

50pts is a minor cost for what a Justicar does.

[Gentlemanloser]

It still doesn't stop him being overpriced.

 

Which he is. ;)

[Magnus Thane]

The high price would not be so bad if they were a bit more 'survivable'.

[KingDeath]

The high price would not be so bad if they were a bit more 'survivable'.

 

Use the shrouding? Seriously, at 24inch, max stormbolter range, this nice litle ability helps quite a bit.

[DevianID]

The problem with being at 24 inches to make use of the shrouding, is that you only have s4 shots. Sadly s4, even in abundance, is very weak in the current metagame. Yes, you can wipe marine squads out, and with some backpedaling even deal with large ork mobs over time. However, marines get rhinos and orks get 5+ cover minimum (both effectively negating storm bolters), and both can then counter attack the grey knights in the next turn to ~2x the shooting damage.

 

Thus, for me, grey knights are a close combat troop, and shrouding--while it can be nice--does not allow grey knights to be a ranged skirmisher due to their weak missile attacks.

 

Now if grey knights had psychic powers similar to a psychic battle squad, that would be a different story--36 inch range and the ability to crush morale would make a big difference in the use of the storm bolters.

[Aidoneus]

I think we ended up with pretty good rules in my Fixing Daemonhunters Project a while back. For the relevant changes to PAGKs themselves, check out Troops, Special Rules, and Psychic Powers (in that order). The nice part about our changes is that they aren't just slapped together to mend perceived weaknesses; they are all based on fluff, and therefore make the army more thematic while still boosting their power to competitive levels.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

A Shrouding that actually works, I can remember 4-5 times it has worked in the 3 years I have had a pure Grey knights army, I am normally calm with my games but when the shrouding works I get excited, and most of the people I play actually wonder why bother to roll for it when it works about as often as a Blue moon, somthing that means they are a bit more survivible.

[SamaNagol]

Shrouding is utterly useless. And to think we actually pay points for it.

[BrianBlessed]

I think they should be able to deepstrike and stay as a troops selection.

[Magnus Thane]

I think they should be able to deepstrike and stay as a troops selection.

 

Yep. Deepstrike (troops) + improved shrouding seem to be 2 of the most frequently recurring demands.