Of squares and circles

[Ntin]

I tried searching for this topic on this rule forum and those of other websites but could never find a definitive answer.

 

Over the last few months I have been purchasing the older metal daemons for my Chaos Daemon army. They have come in a hodgepodge of square and circular bases. The majority of the 100 or so models are appropriately sized fantasy style bases. This weekend playing at my LFGS a regular mentioned that it was not generally allowed to play square bases in a Warhammer 40,000 game and would not be allowed in a tournament setting. Now I currently do not play Warhammer Fantasy but am interested in perhaps picking it up one day. I am also interested in playing in a tournament if my LFGS does hold one. Such a hypothetical tournament can also make up whatever rules they wish.

 

So rule wise am I allowed to base my daemons on whatever base they were packaged with? It is going to be a project in itself to swap all my fantasy bases to circle bases and not really too keen on it.

[mega_marines]

I tried searching for this topic on this rule forum and those of other websites but could never find a definitive answer.

 

Over the last few months I have been purchasing the older metal daemons for my Chaos Daemon army. They have come in a hodgepodge of square and circular bases. The majority of the 100 or so models are appropriately sized fantasy style bases. This weekend playing at my LFGS a regular mentioned that it was not generally allowed to play square bases in a Warhammer 40,000 game and would not be allowed in a tournament setting. Now I currently do not play Warhammer Fantasy but am interested in perhaps picking it up one day. I am also interested in playing in a tournament if my LFGS does hold one. Such a hypothetical tournament can also make up whatever rules they wish.

 

So rule wise am I allowed to base my daemons on whatever base they were packaged with? It is going to be a project in itself to swap all my fantasy bases to circle bases and not really too keen on it.

 

 

Well initially all the demon boxes contained bases for both 40K and Fantasy. So if you played 40K, you'd use the round bases only. Square goes for Fantasy. Now, this being said, you are required to use round bases for your models. Oddly enough, it's also been proven that peopel can get less models into base contact with you when you use round bases, as the pointed edges of square bases allow more models to touch. Though it was never legal to use square bases, the thought was mildly entertaining. You'd just be hurting yourself. Now, in a friendly game, I'd let you use whatever bases you wanted. In a tournament setting, I'm afraid it's a no go. Sorry!

[The Nephilim]

Never use square bases! Square-basing is for dirty square-basers!

[Isiah]

So rule wise am I allowed to base my daemons on whatever base they were packaged with? It is going to be a project in itself to swap all my fantasy bases to circle bases and not really too keen on it.

 

Simple answer is yes you must normally use the base that came with the model.

 

However there is nothing I know of in the BRB that states that bases must be round (conversely it's probably more important in fantasy that bases must be square for ranking up purposes) – in fact the rules for bases in 40K are pretty loose. Taking a precedence from the issue of using 'scenic' or decorative bases of a different size [p3], I guess it really makes sense to ask opponents permission first under those terms. But it wouldn't worry me if your bases were square.

 

Personally I prefer the look of round bases – but that cuts no ice here :lol:.

 

Cheers

I

[Ntin]

The only thing I could find on the subject is on page 3 on the stub about bases. A condition is not covered on square versus round bases. I like the round ones myself they are easier to handle but I am not exaggerating on that I have about 70 daemonettes on square bases that are flocked and ready to be painted. Just trying to get out of more work than I need too =)

[Frogstaff]

Now, this being said, you are required to use round bases for your models.

This is completely wrong, just to make sure that it's understood. There exists no rules that force you to use round bases instead of square. Models need to be mounted on what the model came with, so for example, it's 100% legal for old terminators to remain on their small bases, and daemons can be mounted on either square or round, whichever you prefer.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Well as I beleive mega_marines that they came with both, and round was for 40k and square for fantasy, then being on square bases would make them fantasy models, not 40k models. I think the best solution is totake a dab of glue and attach the square bases to a round base, and then if you decide to switch to fantasy, just take a knife and pop off the round base.

[Grey Mage]

Actually, I dont beleive it specifies.

 

Edit: Specificly, my Avatar of Khaine is most displeased with your insinuation that he doesnt belong in 40k.

[Ntin]

Your Avatar of Khaine does not belong on this forum as it is not power armor related.

 

/Goes back to painting Daemonettes.

[Grey Mage]

Your Avatar of Khaine does not belong on this forum as it is not power armor related.

 

/Goes back to painting Daemonettes.

Thankfully that rule doesnt apply to the OR forum... and yes, the irony of your statement was not lost on me.

[Ian MacKay]

Hm. As a base-agnostic (I play WHFB as well) Daemon player, I may have your "best solution." I will agree that base doesn't matter in pickup games, at least where I play.

 

I'll say it makes more sense to put round bases on them now if you only play 40K. If you want to play them in Fantasy, either get War of the Ring movement trays, get GaleForce 9 custom trays, or make your own like I did. All the base daemons like Bloodletters, Daemonettes, etc. rank up in Fantasy so the trays make a lot of sense. In fact, only Nurglings are defined as "skirmishers" or not ranked in the book.

 

Oh, yeah. It was a bit of a pain to pull off the squares and re-do the bases for 64 bloodletters. The fact that they are ready to go is a bummer.

 

edit: sympathy :D

[Hellios]

If you mount them on circle bases and then get the larger of the small square bases (Orc bases as opposed to elf bases) you can then model up around the circle base (leaving a slot for it) so that when place on the square base it will blend in and also make your daemons even taller :D. You can also stick magnets or blu-tac in the gap to help hold them if you like although this is not required. Although this takes a bit of work its easier than doing another daemon army :cuss.

 

However in my humble opinion (letting you know it's anything but humble :cuss) to the letter of the rules you can use square bases in 40k if the models came with square bases or even both. However this will upset some people and individual tournament organisers are well within their rights to say you must use circle bases if they wish.

[Seahawk]

Sucks for those Avatars, Wraithlords, Roughriders, snipers, dreadnoughts, etc that used to come on square bases. I assume any of those on square bases are banned too? How :): silly.

 

But otherwise, there's no rule saying they have to be on rounds instead of squares, only they must be based on what they came with. Since they came with square bases, you're well within the rules to play them.

[ShinyRhino]

Don't forget all the Bike Squads that are still on the shelves with WHFB Cavalry bases in the boxes!

[mega_marines]

Now, this being said, you are required to use round bases for your models.

This is completely wrong, just to make sure that it's understood. There exists no rules that force you to use round bases instead of square. Models need to be mounted on what the model came with, so for example, it's 100% legal for old terminators to remain on their small bases, and daemons can be mounted on either square or round, whichever you prefer.

 

Now, in a friendly game, I'd let you use whatever bases you wanted.In a tournament setting, I'm afraid it's a no go. Sorry!

 

I believe you missed that. I never said you weren't allowed to use them, I stated they weren't legal to use officially on square bases. Now that being said, just because it's illegal to do something, you think it stops people, especially in a game of toy soldiers? Anyways, I'd let someone use square bases, but in a tournament setting, I'd heavily question it. Mainly because most tournaments typically say 'No" to square bases as they can cause problems in a game. Now in a normal game I'd be fine with it, and that should be obvious. Now if your model comes with a square base and is used for 40k, then you are typically allowed to use that base(even though it is kind of frowned upon by many). Though, you should look for a round base counterpart. It's more or less for simplicity purposes that people don't feel like dealing with.

[Frogstaff]

No, I didn't miss that, you were simply wrong again. 1: Private tournies can set whatever rules they want. Just because some random tourney ruled 'only green space marine armies can be entered' doesn't mean you have a valid argument against people trying to field red space marine armies elsewhere. 2: I have never encountered a tournament that forbids the use of square bases, and as this thread shows, it is certainly not 'frowned upon by many.' In fact, that view seems to be a distinct minority. Now, if you'd like to perhaps provide a list of these 'many tournaments' that I seem to have overlooked to show me I'm mistaken...

 

As for people who don't feel like dealing with it? Well, tough for them. The possible mechanical advantages of square over round bases are too slight to even be worth considering, and as putting them on square bases meets both the letter, and the spirit of the rules about basing your minis, I'm certainly not going to be arsed to change my bases because my opponent is so anal retentive that the presence of 90 degree angles makes him feel funny.

 

So long story short, daemons on square bases is 100% legal, and if your opponent argues otherwise, it's out of pure personal preference and has no support at all from any rule.

[Ming]

I have two old lead landspeeders on square bases.....Bwahahahahhhaahaaaaa

[mega_marines]

No, I didn't miss that, you were simply wrong again. 1: Private tournies can set whatever rules they want. Just because some random tourney ruled 'only green space marine armies can be entered' doesn't mean you have a valid argument against people trying to field red space marine armies elsewhere. 2: I have never encountered a tournament that forbids the use of square bases, and as this thread shows, it is certainly not 'frowned upon by many.' In fact, that view seems to be a distinct minority. Now, if you'd like to perhaps provide a list of these 'many tournaments' that I seem to have overlooked to show me I'm mistaken...

 

As for people who don't feel like dealing with it? Well, tough for them. The possible mechanical advantages of square over round bases are too slight to even be worth considering, and as putting them on square bases meets both the letter, and the spirit of the rules about basing your minis, I'm certainly not going to be arsed to change my bases because my opponent is so anal retentive that the presence of 90 degree angles makes him feel funny.

 

So long story short, daemons on square bases is 100% legal, and if your opponent argues otherwise, it's out of pure personal preference and has no support at all from any rule.

 

 

Abrasive are we? Good God man. Also, swing and a miss, yet again.

 

That wasn't a point I was making at all, so apparently you missed the mark again. There is a vast difference between red and green armies(or whatever colors) which all use a basic profile(so paint scheme doesn't make a difference)compared to an army that uses round and square bases. The reason it's frowned upon is simply for the fact that what is to stop someone from using all square bases instead of just one or two? None. It can apply an unfair advantage to certain units and armies, which is a no go. Not saying that all people do that, but it does occur. Ever play in Rogue Trader Tournaments run by GW staff, or even GW tournaments? I've been to the ones at Gamesday, all the way to the ones held by independent stores. They all give you the same remark about square bases, which is "Not allowed". Now, while there is no rule in a fiddly little rulebook that talks about square and round bases, there is a general opinion. Is there a rule to keep you from picking up an opponents models and throwing it, or spitting on the table? No. But there are times when common sense comes into play(Don't shoot me for the pun). Now while our argument seems to be heading into it's own direction, and further away from it's intended course, it should be painfully clear what I'm saying. If it's not, then I'm sorry, but stop typing. If you'd please read how I'm stating something, then it'd be so much simpler.

[Grey Mage]

Your saying you think its unfair of people to use square bases, and that some people in authority will agree with you.

 

I have one question- would you please show me how square bases give a tactical or mathematical advantage to any unit over circular bases in any situation?

[Ntin]

Well a 25mm base and thus forth will be .98” has the following areas on each base:

Circle = .75”

Square = .96”

 

A square base will catch more template attacks. Conversely a square base will take up more real-estate on the board which will allow fewer models to work into assault on the initial charge. For Tau this could be an advantage but for an army like Chaos Daemons it is a disadvantage. Although the new assault bubble is much more generous than previous edition so this would be less of an issue. As far as I can tell it is a disadvantage to play on square bases in Warhammer 40,000.

[Isiah]

The fact that one base might or might not be more advantageous over another is neither here not there. The original question has been answered. Let's not blow off steam over a side-issue that does not concern Official Rules.

 

Cheers

I

[Frogstaff]

Abrasive are we? Good God man. Also, swing and a miss, yet again.

This is a rules forum. Many questions have a very simple answer that can be backed up with a page reference. Making up things to try and reinforce your view, especially when the stance you are embracing is directly contradicted by clearly printed rules is very silly.

 

You say it's 'frowned upon by many people and disallowed in many tournaments,' which A: has no bearings of any sort on a rule discussion, and B: completely failed to back it up with evidence when requested. Your personal preference is not to use square bases. That's fine, but completely irrelevant to a rules discussion, especially when the rules are crystal clear on the matter.

[Leto]

as with what apperas to be most answers on here i don't mind as it realy only applies to one army for now. But has anybody suggested or even asked GW or a GW store for a correct answer on this one?

To use the earlier example of LOTR movment trays in my gaming group with have a guard player using them mainly because he choses to field a 1500 point army with only 2 tanks, i also use them myself in apoc.

In short goes with what wotks for you and the players you play against.

[mega_marines]

Abrasive are we? Good God man. Also, swing and a miss, yet again.

This is a rules forum. Many questions have a very simple answer that can be backed up with a page reference. Making up things to try and reinforce your view, especially when the stance you are embracing is directly contradicted by clearly printed rules is very silly.

 

You say it's 'frowned upon by many people and disallowed in many tournaments,' which A: has no bearings of any sort on a rule discussion, and B: completely failed to back it up with evidence when requested. Your personal preference is not to use square bases. That's fine, but completely irrelevant to a rules discussion, especially when the rules are crystal clear on the matter.

 

You've chosen to take this argument to a personal level, and that's opposite of how it should be, so this will be my last post in this discussion. It is not my personal preference either way, but it is the more than average view of tournaments and official GW staff. If that doesn't count for something, then nothing will save for Jervis to come and post his answer here. I have backed up your questions with evidence, yet you choose to ignore bold written statements. When it comes down to certain rule discussions, common sense; typically; should be applied. ;)

[Isiah]

At the end of the day, tourney and GW staff (and even Jervis') decisions are essentially 'House Rules' and as such they can pretty much come up with whatever they like (and do). That's all fine, but, it has no bearing on any 'Official Rules' as per the BRB.

 

Cheers

I