Oldenhaller Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Fighting an avatar/daemonprince/abadon/ghazghull/etc and he's just refusing to die? Hit it with a thunderhammer for an unsaved wound and then snipe with JotWW in the next shooting phase. As they're now I1 they'll probably fall down a hole Discuss ~O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geass Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Ive herd that combo before and it sounded pretty awesome to me, alltho my opponents don't field anything scary enough that would make me wish to use that on them, but i think it would be great. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 I'm planning on seeng my eldar playing friend's face drop as his avatar and two wraith lords fall into chasms to it...methinks he'll not be too pleased. It also makes if arjac's thrown hammer stuns or not rather more important... ~O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderpup Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I just figured that the Initiative test was taken at the models unmodified initiative. Example: you don't penalize a marine for taking a powerfist by making him test at 1 instead of 4. Of course i have nothing to support that. It's just an assumption i made. (incorrectly?) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geass Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Many of my friends think it stuns but they havent looked to much into it, but its up to house rules ain't it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 From the BRB : In addition, all models that suffer an unsaved wound from a thunder hammer and are not killed will be knocked reeling, reducing their Initiative to a value of 1 until the end of the next player's turn On Arjac's hammer - yeah, there's no hard and fast line on it. It's down to deciding if the fluff covers the rules or not. ~O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Mh, this might work. But only, when you hit the character in the enemy`s turn, i think. Because he is only stunned until the end of the next player`s turn. ~ Edit: too slow.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Can you target a model who is locked in combat with a psychic shooting attack then? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Ive herd that combo before and it sounded pretty awesome to me, alltho my opponents don't field anything scary enough that would make me wish to use that on them, but i think it would be great. If you have any buddies playing the new Nids.... oh you'll have plenty of ridiculous (6 wound type) targets! I really don't think this combo would work. Personally almost everything I've seen of this nature uses 'base' numbers, not modified numbers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Can you target a model who is locked in combat with a psychic shooting attack then? No you can't jotww is still a shooting attack and therefore has to comply to the shooting rules, so if you target is locked in Close combat then you may not target it. I Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Ive herd that combo before and it sounded pretty awesome to me, alltho my opponents don't field anything scary enough that would make me wish to use that on them, but i think it would be great. If you have any buddies playing the new Nids.... oh you'll have plenty of ridiculous (6 wound type) targets! I really don't think this combo would work. Personally almost everything I've seen of this nature uses 'base' numbers, not modified numbers. Actually, in theory it does. As the BRB states, the Initiative value is reduced to 1 until the end of the next player turn. The problem lies in the fact that Thunderhammers strike in combat, JotWW is fired in the Shooting Phase, meaning by the time the next Rune Priest rolls around to fire JotWW, it's the next "next" player turn, and their Initiative would have returned to normal. Space Wolf player turn, combat, strikes monster and reduces Initiative from 5 to 1. Xenos player turn, combat, stricken monster is now at Initiative 1. Space Wolf player turn, combat, stricken monster is now back to Initiative 5. The only way this could be pulled successfully is if Arjac's hammer stuns when thrown (which, in retrospect though I argued for, I don't believe it does), OR if you were locked in combat in the enemy turn, and happened to stun the monster then. Xenos player turn, combat, strikes monster and reduces Initiative from 5 to 1. Space Wolf player turn, combat, stricken monster is now at Initiative 1. QUOTE (SamaNagol @ Dec 23 2009, 01:54 PM) *Can you target a model who is locked in combat with a psychic shooting attack then? No you can't jotww is still a shooting attack and therefore has to comply to the shooting rules. I In theory, you cannot target a model locked in combat. But you can target another enemy model that is unengaged, and if the models locked in combat happen to fall upon that 24" line... DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 it's an odd one with JotWW. Some people think it doesn't need a target as it says 'draw a line...' I'm of the opinion that it does, however as with other template weapons you can pick a target past of in front of them and it'll then get the targets in the line, including those in the combat. As to if it goes on base stats, there's nothing in either the psychic power or the rulebook which states this and as the model has thier 'initiative reduced to 1...' then it's one. Knocked reeling by a thunder hammer, falls down a hole...it's pretty easy to picture Hey DV8, cheers for chipping in, glad my take on things is coroborated ;) ~O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Can you target a model who is locked in combat with a psychic shooting attack then? No you can't jotww is still a shooting attack and therefore has to comply to the shooting rules, so if you target is locked in Close combat then you may not target it. I Well... I don't think that's right. JOTWW works similar to an Eldar Vibro Cannon to me. The Vibro cannon is very similar in the way that you just lay down a line.... and it does in fact PASS THROUGH TERRAIN. To me this seems clear. It operates like a vibro cannon. It's perfectly valid to hit several 'things' you can't see including models in close combat. Actually, in theory it does. As the BRB states, the Initiative value is reduced to 1 until the end of the next player turn. Nah... 'actually' I still can't see this being intentional. Until the end of 'next player's turn' still would allow you to hammer someone in your opponent's assault phase and THEN JOTWW them at initiative 1. But I still don't think you can used a modified version of a character's stat. It's not an easy combination to pull off, but I suppose it -could- work that way. I'm still inclined to suspect this wasn't their (GW's) intent though. It just seems wrong. I can think of two examples that contradict each other in this example: If you go into a close combat and your initiative is altered for whatever reason (you're in cover, or whatever) at the end of the assault when leadership/initiative tests are taken, what value do you use? Your modified value? Or your inherent value? Answer: inherent. If you are hit by a psychic choir, it lowers a value, and then when a test is taken, in this case it uses the modified value. So there are conflicting rules that seem to support either argument. My money is on GW not forseeing this one. Again a simple wording fix would have helped. Although I do like the image of a Trygon getting hammered in the head, and stumbling into a hole. LOL! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 It's not an easy combination to pull off, but I suppose it -could- work that way. I'm still inclined to suspect this wasn't their (GW's) intent though. It just seems wrong. I never stated intent. Merely the fact that theoretically it is a possible combination. Just difficult to pull off, and you're right, could be entirely against GW's intent. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 It's not an easy combination to pull off, but I suppose it -could- work that way. I'm still inclined to suspect this wasn't their (GW's) intent though. It just seems wrong. I never stated intent. Merely the fact that theoretically it is a possible combination. Just difficult to pull off, and you're right, could be entirely against GW's intent. DV8 Well if this is the case.... You can bet your Uncle's blood stained wolf pelt that I'm bringing a sack o' hammers to my next Trygon fight! Yeehhhaw! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Space Wolf player turn, combat, strikes monster and reduces Initiative from 5 to 1.Xenos player turn, combat, stricken monster is now at Initiative 1. Space Wolf player turn, combat, stricken monster is now back to Initiative 5. Orrr... Xenos player turn, combat, stricken monster assaults and is wounded by Thammer, wins combat(kills all SW models) and is now at Initiative 1. Space Wolf player turn, Opens up fiery chasm of death and gains vengeance on the MC.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 the joys of RAW against RAI. if you've got anything where this may come into question then probably worth checking with your oponent/the event organiser ~O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Orrr... Xenos player turn, combat, stricken monster assaults and is wounded by Thammer, wins combat(kills all SW models) and is now at Initiative 1. Space Wolf player turn, Opens up fiery chasm of death and gains vengeance on the MC.... Well either or, the end result is the same :D Point being that you have to hit the monster with the Thunderhammer in your opponent's phase in order to drop his Initiative to 1. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Rao Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Orrr... Xenos player turn, combat, stricken monster assaults and is wounded by Thammer, wins combat(kills all SW models) and is now at Initiative 1. Space Wolf player turn, Opens up fiery chasm of death and gains vengeance on the MC.... Well either or, the end result is the same :P Point being that you have to hit the monster with the Thunderhammer in your opponent's phase in order to drop his Initiative to 1. DV8 This seems to make most sense to me. And as stated several times, it's actually pretty difficult to pull off, even if you manage to time it correctly. If you have plenty of THs and/or PFs and so on, chances are the creature will be dead the turn you charge it. Hence, it will only surviive if you botch all your rolls or if you only have too few THs (which would be your own fault). Holding a TH you're auto striking last against a MC, which gleans it a respectable chance of offing you before you get to strike. Surviving that can be tricky, especially if it has to be for two turns in a row (if you assaulted it and it's still not dead after your next opponent's turn). If by some miracle the assaulting squad is still alive AND it somehow manages to avoid the indiscriminate JOTWW line, you're more than welcome to have your opponent roll for his Initiative (with a +1 modifier!) to 'instant-kill' it. It would look cool, but it sure as hell ain't a tactic I would bank on... That's like taking Ork Zapp guns to kill heavy tanks. It happens, sure, but only very rarely and therefore should not be a standard part of one's tactics. LR Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Not that it has been officially FAQed, but I asked Phil Kelly specifically at Games Day how targeting works for JOTWW and he said that 'as a shooting attack you have to be able to have LoS to EVERY model it touches'. I personally didn't think you needed a LoS to every model any AoE attack targets, just the focal point. But that was his exact answer word for word. Oh and by RAW, a Thunder Hammer makes the model's Initiative value 1 until the end of the next turn. That's water tight. If they have to take an initiative test, their initiative is 1 within that time frame. And by RAW you can target a model and then have the line pass through that second I1 model without it being targetable by conventional rules. So yes, it is a valid loophole in the rules which exists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 it would surprise me if that was the answer in the faq, but im not someone who thinks you don't need LOS to shoot it (by which i mean i doubt you can hide behind something randomly firing off chasms which happen to hit enemy units every time). however lets be careful not to turn this into another arguement about how JOW works. back on topic i can see this technically being allowed, and i wouldn't complain if someone pulled it off against me. its going to be pretty hard to do unless as said they wipe you out but hey, if you can spring the trap then congratulations. in truth i don't take JOWW, im not overly keen on it as a power and find several others interest me more Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Not that it has been officially FAQed, but I asked Phil Kelly specifically at Games Day how targeting works for JOTWW and he said that 'as a shooting attack you have to be able to have LoS to EVERY model it touches'. I personally didn't think you needed a LoS to every model any AoE attack targets, just the focal point. But that was his exact answer word for word. I don't know what to say to this. *IF* they FAQ this, then I'll abide by it naturally, but until that happens I won't play it that way. If what you said is true... why is the eldar vibro cannon (a shooting weapon) not treated this way? And why would the power itself stipulate it can target through terrain? There is no specification of what type of terrain... just 'terrain'. So I'm still playing it like it reads until or if it gets FAQ'd. Actually the more I think about the quote above it makes less and less sense.... I mean if you actually need "LoS to EVERY model it touches" well that's pretty much impossible because the first item you hit will in fact block LOS to every item behind it unless they get bigger, and bigger. Doesn't make a stitch of common sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithGatchalian Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 The Adepticon FAQ allows JOWW to pass through locked units, so if you are playing in a tournament that uses that, you are good to go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 I am not posting it to say I agree with it, I am just reiterating verbatim what Phil Kelly said. Obviously it is not official and in his defence the book was brand new. But still, it shows you a bit of what the mentality is in the studio. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187969-hammer-of-the-world-wolf/#findComment-2224933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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