Brother matthew Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I was throwing around a few ideas for some space wolf scouts and looking at pictures of the fine examples here and I started thinking about their role and how they compare to codex scouts fluff wise. If I remember correctly space wolf scouts have already been given the black carapace and served time with the blood claws and possibly the gray hunters and the codex scouts are the FNGs. It seems to me that the space wolves have the right idea by ensuring the chapters eyes and ears are battle tested. Anyway, I’m wondering why our scouts still wear the crappy carapace armor? I can almost believe the argument about them being more mobile in the lighter armor but then I think of all the fluff I have read about how fast marines are in full PA and that argument goes out the window. That is until you think about the bulk however; scouts will be operating way behind NME lines sometimes for months at a time. They are unsupplied and would there for have to carry more of the essential supplies (mostly ammo as they can forage or steal anything else they need). So in reality it would make more sense to be in PA for the increase in endurance and load bearing. The last big argument I can think of is stealth reasons; I think that in the 41st millennium they could make PA pretty quiet. While I would love to hear everyone else opinion on what I wrote above the real reason I’m posting is to get your ideas on how you would do PA wolf scouts, so lets hear it or see it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I think the idea is that scouts wear the armour they do because powered armour requires a power source, and power sources require fuel. Carapace armour is simply dense armour plate that protects the vital internals A unit of scouts in power armour would be a trifle odd, especially if you throw in all the scouty rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 power armour is just that, powered... its noisy. it has a mini reactor in its bckpack and vents on the side to eject ht air. its not easy to stay hidden whilst wearing it especially if the enemy has some form of infrared or heaven forbid auspex... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillen Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I too see no reason why they would not be in Power Armor. As to the negatives I will rebut. Energy? Power Armor can be used on it's own power for 2 years of combat ops. Yes they have a power source that lasts for 2 years and can idle to save energy. Something about the power is cut to 20% and the marine does all the moving on his own. Which saves the power source. Noisy? How many books do we have where marines are creeping around in their armor and being sneaky. Yes it's is powered but it's not a tank. It has fiber muscle to help boost the marines strength and off set the armor weight. It's not a dirt bike thou. And the stuff is contained in the armor. So yes I would see them wearing their power armor still. Why not scout armor? Well, to start it's heavy, and provides ok armor. Still no helm for heads up and quiet comunication. But they need something to off set it all. So they chose armor. They should have said light power armor and made it a little more like PA but with weaker plating. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Runner Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Checkout this thread for some great modelling ideas for Scouts in PA. I think their great. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...9&hl=scouts Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I think size is the main thing, its harder to hide the bulk of a power armor, and getting trough small places will be hard to. I think scout armor is fine Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 i think it was Iron snakes where it says about the noise generated by power armour. i don't mean it sounds like a tank, but there is a low hum constantly and then the whine of the servos when you move. scout armour is silent, the only noise is when two plates rub against each other which is why there is so little. its also easier to negotiate difficul ground as you can move almost exactly as if you were unarmoured. power armour, no matter how dextrous is still armour and will still constrictyour movements more than a chest plate and some shoulder pads. also there is the matter of stealth, its easier to break up the shape of someone in scout armour than 9 foot tall suit of power armour (note might have exagerated the size there). also its heavie, i dont mean in terms of moveing in it but in simple terms of its actual weight. in scout armou you could move around without getting stuck in mud, or falling through frozen lakes etc. i mean power armour has to weigh alot, its gonna be easy to get bogged down and if you get bogged down you go slower, if you go slower you are more likely to get noticed. then theres the noise t makes when it comes into contact with other surfaces, its going to be hard walking around with armoured boots as quietly as if you were running around in sneakers (which as we all know are made for sneaking). then there are times when you might have to scrape past something, scraping a hunk of metal along it will make more noise than fabric would... lastly imagine the size of the camocloak you would need to cover a marine in power armour... next you'll wonder why they can't wear terminator armour as it says marines move almost as easily in that as power armour :o seriously though, its more likely we had a butt load of scout armour left and leman russ sat there and thought, 'well i could give it to the bloodclaws... oh no that won't do... the grey hunters will shout at me... the wolf guard will laugh... i'd have to stuff the codpiece... the iron priests would just remake it into artificer armour... the scouts can have, no one likes them and they spend all their time outside anyway so even if they do complain no ones gonna know about it.' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Power armour doesn't slow the WG packleader down :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 lol...they probably club him over the head, bundle him in a bag and carry him along to stop him being too too noisy :tu: ~O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewi Sant Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Power armour doesn't slow the WG packleader down;) He has a point, but that's why you should be using the old Scout Sgt models as your wolf guard pack leaders like I do. :tu: Trust me though when you go on a dismounted recce patrol you travel as light as possible. Unless your in Aghan, then its a whole different story. DS Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother matthew Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 All very good posts! Just the kind of constructive thread I was hoping for. I would just like to add that when we quote fluff we have to remember that lots of times fluff will contradict it’s self as it is that individual authors interpretation of how power armor works. Until G’dub comes right out and tells everyone exactly how power armor sounds like or exactly how they think it works this will continue to be a problem. It’s fun to talk about this stuff nonetheless. I think size is the main thing, its harder to hide the bulk of a power armor, and getting trough small places will be hard to. I agree that the one draw back to PA scouts would be the bulk. I think the link that Night Runner posted shows a really good example of how I see space wolf scouts being armored. I’m not a huge fan of the really feral look but good execution by Haakon Ironheart on the armor. i think it was Iron snakes where it says about the noise generated by power armour. i don't mean it sounds like a tank, but there is a low hum constantly and then the whine of the servos when you move. I have such a hard time swallowing any of the fluff that states the power armor hums or that its servos whine. Servos that we are using in products today don’t even whine anymore. Just my opinion seriously though, its more likely we had a butt load of scout armour left and Leman Russ sat there and thought, 'well i could give it to the blood claws... oh no that won't do... the grey hunters will shout at me... the wolf guard will laugh... I'd have to stuff the codpiece... the iron priests would just remake it into artificer armour... the scouts can have it, no one likes them and they spend all their time outside anyway so even if they do complain no ones gonna know about it. LOL I love it... very good point and I'm almost willing to drop the whole scouts in PA thing based on this alone! So I'm thinking all gray armor with subdued pack markings, lots of pouches and extra ammo. Those are just my initial thoughts. Trust me though when you go on a dismounted recce patrol you travel as light as possible. Unless your in Aghan, then its a whole different story. Power armor off sets the need to travel light! :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewi Sant Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Trust me though when you go on a dismounted recce patrol you travel as light as possible. Unless your in Aghan, then its a whole different story. Power armor off sets the need to travel light! ;) You're wrong I'm sorry brother, Speed and Stealth far outweigh the need of protection when it come to gathering intelligence/maintaining contact with En forces. Unless your talking about recce by force then its a whole different ball game. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 If fluff is playing a part in this argument don't forget Ragnar has infiltrated/scouted in power armour He has surprised IG and Orks from what I recall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar Blood Giver Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Wow this is new. as for me scouts have speed and stealth that why they have OBEL. putting them in PA takes some of their advantages away. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother matthew Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 You're wrong I'm sorry brother, Speed and Stealth far outweigh the need of protection when it come to gathering intelligence/maintaining contact with En forces. Unless your talking about recce by force then its a whole different ball game. I don't disagree with any of this. I should have been more clear with my post. I simply met that in PA you can carry more weight than you would be able to in scout armor and still move as light inf. I would like to add that I feel PA would increase a marines speed and I would drop some stealth to be wearing power armor. It's pretty obvious I think that power armor is stealthy. If fluff is playing a part in this argument don't forget Ragnar has infiltrated/scouted in power armourHe has surprised IG and Orks from what I recall. TigX you are correct. A both fine examples of power armor being stealthy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 There is tons of background material with Marines in Power Armor sneaking around. Shrike and his boys are a prime example. My personal opinion regarding Wolf Scouts is that it was done purely for game balance. Let's be honest, if our Wolf Scouts came with Power Armour, in addition to BEL and their current options, who wouldn't field 2 or 3 maxed out packs of 10? V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Wow this is new. as for me scouts have speed and stealth that why they have OBEL. putting them in PA takes some of their advantages away. I feel it requires clarification that Wolf Scouts do not have OBEL because they are equipped with scout armor. Space Marine Scout squads are equipped in the same manner and all they get is infiltrate. You have to consider the roles that both units play: Space Marine Scouts are neophytes (newbies, if you will), who are still adjusting to the Geneseed implanted in them. While having acquired basic training, they lack experience, and while they act as forward scouts they aren't expected to operate in the field for an lengthy amount of time. Space Wolf Scouts are veterans. These are grizzled warriors who have survived through dozens of campaigns (if not more), and have elite training combined with the experience accrued through decades/centuries of war. Their predisposition to being loners have made them uniquely ideal to operate for lengthy amounts of time away from their brethren, and it is not unheard of for Wolf Scout packs to operate behind enemy lines, or in enemy territory, for years at a time, disrupting supply lines, relaying intelligence reports back to the Great Company/Companies, and generally causing a merry muck. OBEL, then, is a result of the role the unit plays (and is an aspect of their fluff represented in the game), and not the gear they wear. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Logan sends them a message saying "we're attacking at such and such a time in such and such a place, would you like to join us?" They sit around for a while talking it over, and then, maybe, on the roll of a 4+ they turn up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 They have scout armour cause this will confuse the enemy. They think they start a fight with new marines but are shown all the corners of the table when they appear to be vets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 While its not the biggest source of cannon, it should be known that in Dark Heresy Carapace Armor and "Scout Power Armor" or "Light Power Armor" are two very very different things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitewolfmxc Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 lol now lets discuss why our scouts dont have camo clock.............XD anyway , reason i think of scout armor is for balance issues lol GW doesnt want the codex marine punnys to complain to them would them now ? XD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/187971-wolf-scouts/#findComment-2224981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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